Template talk:FinalSmash

Use this talk page to discuss changes, fixes, and improvements for this template.

Sorting

This template looks extremely messy. I feel it should be split into series or something. Red (talk) 13:57, 27 May 2014 (EDT)

Bump. I second the above. There aren't too many words to describe this order (if you can call it that) other than abysmal. ScoreCounter 16:24, 17 January 2015 (EST)

It's a very simple alphabetical-by-character-name listing and it's about as streamlined as it can get without making the template massive. Miles (talk) 16:40, 17 January 2015 (EST)

A) Ah, now I see that. Still, that's a tad hard to notice, in a way. B)Point taken. Thanks. I'll think about that one... there's surely some way of doing it that is a bit softer on the eyes... ScoreCounter 16:48, 17 January 2015 (EST)

The previous layout used character names instead of head icons and was an oversized mess; I implemented the heads as a space-saving measure. If you have a different suggestion, I'm interested to hear it, but I'm having a hard time seeing what else would be practical. Miles (talk) 16:52, 17 January 2015 (EST)

could we try sorting it by game? Idk how much that would help but we could have "Introduced in Brawl" and "Introduced in SSB4" (that way we don't have Mario Finale appearing in both lists). I think having multiple lists, while it would make the template rather large, will make it easier to read. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 18:05, 17 January 2015 (EST)

That'd result in either a) duplicating a large chunk of the list for those whose Final Smashes didn't change, making the template quite unnecessarily large, or b) separating instances where the Final Smash did change in a rather unwieldy fashion. I'd think people would want links to Pit's two Final Smashes next to each other, for instance, not in completely separate sub-lists. Miles (talk) 18:09, 17 January 2015 (EST)

Here's what I came up with: [1] I personally think it isn't too awful, the only complaint I have is how Kirby and Peach's Brawl Final Smashes don't stay next to their pictures (idk how to fix it though). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 18:18, 17 January 2015 (EST)

The idea's good in theory, but in practice there's still problems. For starters, all the characters with the same one in Brawl and SSB4 are in the Brawl row, but only with their SSB4 head icon. Having two head icons there for the characters who retain it would be possible, but then the rows would have a weird blend of single Brawl heads for non-SSB4 characters (Snake, ICs, etc.), double Brawl/SSB4 heads for those with the same in both (Mario, Peach, etc.), and single Brawl heads for characters who have a new Final Smash in SSB4 (Luigi, Kirby, etc.). On top of that, it still results in the problem I described earlier of splitting the two Final Smashes of the same character into quite separate parts of the template. Miles (talk) 18:28, 17 January 2015 (EST)

I updated it using the double-heads (Kirby and Peach no longer hang off, but Jiggles, G&W, and Snake now do -.- Oh and ROB still does), I think it works fine, but there is the fact that the two are way far apart. It is a little confusing to see Luigi's final smash in brawl isn't in SSB4, then you have to search through the SSB4 heads to find Luigi's. And there's no way to differ changed final smashes from characters who were cut (so Luigi looks like he was cut, or Ice Climbers look like their final smash changed)... My final idea is to split it into two completely separate templates (which could double-up a little, with both having, say, Mario Finale). This would still split changed Final Smashes apart but in a more logical manner. But it also seems rather unnecessary. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 18:49, 17 January 2015 (EST)

Hence my opinion that the current setup, while perhaps not overly elegant, is about as good as we can get. Miles (talk) 18:57, 17 January 2015 (EST)

Alternate layout ideas, round 2

As promised, here are some other possible alternatives that I find less confusing than this version, which some may find preferable to the current version.

No-Heads By Game approach

• No character heads = less clutter
• Bypasses messiness of putting changed Final Smashes apart from each other because they're no longer sorted by character anyways
• Loses the benefits of sorting by character
• Fails to distinguish between different character versions of a shared FS (Landmaster, Critical Hit, etc.) without adding cluttering notes

The columns

• Maintains character sorting while making characters easier to navigate
• Maintains listing of changed ones next to each other
• Almost impossible to guarantee perfectly-balanced columns; also requires manual column rebalancing every time a FS is added (planning for future)
• Most wiki templates do not sort in columns this way, making it an atypical layout

Thoughts? Miles (talk) 13:01, 21 November 2016 (EST)

Disaster Flare's looks better. -- BeepYou (talk) 17:28, 21 November 2016 (EST)

I really, really dislike the second one but the first one is a meh for me. Serpent King 17:29, 21 November 2016 (EST)

(edit conflict) Truth be told, I think Trip's is the better option as well, solely because it combines elements from both of your proposals; it's separated by game, but still has the head icons so that each Final Smash goes with the respective owner (making things like Landmaster a little easier). Aidan, the Thankful Dragon Warrior 17:31, 21 November 2016 (EST)

Alright, I'm gonna be honest and say neither of these look good to me. The first one isn't terrible, but the removal of head icons honestly makes it feel...off to me. I don't know how else I could describe it other than it feels off. The second one is just plain horrendous, and DekZek told me it looks even worse on mobile, so I'm guessing you made that neglecting to have mobile users in mind. Putting bias aside, I still honestly say my version looks better, and does a much better job of solving the problem with the template than either of the other two you suggested do. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2016 (EST)

(edit conflict (again)) Apparently, option two messes up on mobile, so I think we need to strike it. The argument here should be with heads or without. Serpent King 17:35, 21 November 2016 (EST)

There's two main problems with DF's approach:

1. The usage of the head icons is badly inconsistent; on the current version everyone consistently uses their most recent icon, whereas DF's ends up using Brawl icons for characters who are in SSB4 sometimes, but also SSB4 icons for some of them, but just SSB4 icons for that game's newcomers... it's a total mess of inconsistency.
2. The separation by game while still sorting by characters means that instances of changed Final Smashes, like Negative Zone/Poltergust 5000, are separated far apart, which is unacceptable in a template sorted by character. If you're sorting a list by character, you cannot put the two pieces of information related to the same character separately like that.

Both of those are major dealbreakers that distract from the navigation in a critical way. The issue of mobile doesn't make sense to me since from my experience, all navboxes are hidden on mobile anyway. Miles (talk) 17:41, 21 November 2016 (EST)

Your second point is kinda nullified because my version aims to sort it by game appearance, not character. Yes, character sorting is still present, but the main method of sorting is by game appearance. The reason why I approached head icons that way is because the idea of using SSB4 head icons for every character, including ones listed on the Brawl category, makes it even more inconsistent, because then you're using head icons that aren't even present in that game. We really don't need to be worrying about something like Mario Finale not popping up on the SSB4 side because it's already implied that it comes back in SSB4 by the fact that no replacements are there. Even if it's not obvious, people can just click on the articles and see for themselves. Head icon inconsistency in my opinion is not a problem as long as it's still an improvement over the original, which I still stand by my opinion that my version is a vast improvement over the original. Disaster Flare (talk) 17:53, 21 November 2016 (EST)

(edit conflict)

1. It uses the Brawl icons for the Brawl characters, and the SSB4 icons for characters who received new Final Smashes as well as SSB4 characters. How is that inconsistent?
2. That simply means that characters who have a different Final Smash in each game are separated. You want Poltergust 5000? It's separated from Negative Zone, which is a completely different Final Smash altogether.

Also, as a side note, I use my phone all the time, but I see no difference between the two templates on my phone and computer. Aidan, the Thankful Dragon Warrior 17:54, 21 November 2016 (EST)

the main method of sorting is by game appearance.

In which case, why are we sorting by character with character heads too? If your main goal is to sort by game, let's sort the Final Smashes themselves by name (as in the No-Heads By Game approach). This in-between of "kind of by game, kind of by character" is the main source of the problem. We should either sort by character in the current form or the vertical form, or sort by game, but not a messy in-between. Miles (talk) 18:25, 21 November 2016 (EST)

That would just be your first suggestion, and I've already stated that it feels really off to me to go that route. I feel like head icons should still be involved and I honestly still don't see why you're having such a big problem with it. Really, I just don't agree with your reasons for stating that the head icons are inconsistent. I can't speak for others who got involved in this debate, but this is my personal viewpoint. It's clear we're not going to get anywhere by doing this, so how about we just put it to a vote and see what people like more? I think that's really the only way we can settle this at this point. Disaster Flare (talk) 18:31, 21 November 2016 (EST)

Vote for deletion. We don't have a navbox for "recovery moves" or "unique character attributes" (e.g. floating), so why this? Just an artifact of the userbase mentality ten years ago? Toomai Glittershine The Dispenser 19:08, 21 November 2016 (EST)

Also definitely a viable approach. Miles (talk) 19:31, 21 November 2016 (EST)

...Except that Final Smashes are an important part of the series. They're the Hyper Combos, the Fatalities, the Blockbusters, the Punch Time Explosions of Smash. You should be able to find all of them at once, and the template helps with that.

Honestly, I see no problem with leaving the template as is. You have head icons with Final Smashes next to them, and I see no problem with navigability or accessibility. Aidan, the Thankful Dragon Warrior 20:42, 21 November 2016 (EST)

Okok enough. Let's just put this to a vote then. This is going way out of hand. Serpent King 10:11, 22 November 2016 (EST)

Votes for DF's template

1. I think my reasons are pretty self-explanatory from my defense for it so. Disaster Flare (talk) 12:55, 22 November 2016 (EST)
2. This template has the benefits of the other suggestions without their drawbacks. Miles' first template is the second best option, but it is still not as helpful as this one. John PK SMAAAASH!! 13:10, 22 November 2016 (EST)
3. Keep this one. It looks much neater than the current one, as well as Miles' suggestions. Even though, he has some credit to his favor, just Trip did it better. -- BeepYou (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2016 (EST)

Votes for Miles' first template

1. ...

Votes for Miles' second template

1. ...

Votes for deletion

1. We have no other navbox templates for any other move or ability categories; we generally use just categories instead. Kill it.
   My alternate vote is for text only. But preferably kill it. Toomai Glittershine The Rainbow 18:50, 22 November 2016 (EST)
2. I am going to have to agree with Toomai on this one, actually. Thinking about it, why do we need this at all? The category works, plus Final Smash has them all listed there. And it's not like we have nav boxes for any of the other specials. Serpent King 19:06, 22 November 2016 (EST)

Votes to keep as is

1. Honestly I think the existing one is acceptable; my proposed alternatives are about as good as the status quo by my judgment, so either of those would work for me as well. Miles (talk) 12:06, 22 November 2016 (EST)
2. I'm going to try to make one too, but until i do that, this is my choice Poultry(talk) the God-Slayer 15:51, 22 November 2016 (EST)
3. The way the stock icons are on the one we have now I like. Plus that's the one i'm used to. Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ 16:36, 22 November 2016 (EST)
4. The reports of this needing a revamp were greatly exaggerated. It was and is fine and intuitive as is. Final Smashes are tied to their character; if I'm going to look at the navbox for a Final Smash, I'm going to be looking for the character tied to it, not the name of the Final Smash itself. This is because the names don't stick; the characters and what they do during the Final Smash do stick. There's gotta be some association with the characters themselves. If I don't know the name of the Final Smash then that's what the head icons are for. Also the navbox doesn't need all these partitions separating new Final Smashes. There are only two Smash games with Final Smashes, only some of the veterans' were changed. Given the purpose of the navbox it's confusing for the uninformed, plus plain clunky and unintuitive in general, to separate one characters' two different Final Smashes into different partitions. Also, if someone is looking up someone's Final Smash and sees that they have a different one in each game, then that is a new discovery for them that they may not get otherwise if they were separated, because you'd likely expect only newcomer Final Smashes to be covered in the "New to SSB4" partition. Lastly, the navbox with columns is too big. I'm all for intuitive navigation and "If it ain't broke, break it" when the situation calls for it, but I don't see any intuitive navigation with these proposed navboxes and I'm not picking up any beckoning calls of "If it ain't broke, break it" here. MuteSpittah (talk) 05:35, 23 November 2016 (EST)

Should we revisit this template?

I know that the discussion about revising this template was less than two years ago, but since then we've had many new characters and new game in development. I find it increasingly difficult to use the template at all, since even though it's alphabetically sorted, it's hard on the eyes, and the logos for Brawl, SSB4, and Ultimate just clutter up an already clustered template. If everyone else is fine with this template I'll put up with it but I think that there's now much more room for improvement than there was in the past. John HUAH! 13:06, 7 September 2018 (EDT)

Somewhat based on one that Miles had proposed before, this time sorted by character instead of name (which is what he did). We would obviously add to this when we find out names of other Final Smashes in Ultimate. We could remove the head icons and list the Final Smashes by name instead, but I think the head icons make it better because it associates the Final Smashes with the different characters. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:34, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

Support, definitely makes things more organized. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 21:50, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

Opinion: Delete. See my comments from the past: this template is the only one of its kind, we don't really need it when we have categories, and it's a mess. Toomai Glittershine The Obfuscating 21:53, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

Opinion: Keep. The template is quite helpful for jumping between characters' special moves. --Luigifan18 (talk) 22:04, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

Keep but each game gets only new final smashes (so like Rocket Barrel Barrage is only listed in Brawl) Serpent  King 09:20, 11 September 2018 (EDT)

I'm glad that this has gotten responses, and based on the responses, it looks like there's agreement on the fact that the template needs some manner of change. One such option is deletion, as Toomai has suggested, but I don't like that approach, because otherwise, why have templates at all if you can just use categories (a manner of searching for articles that I am not fond of)? But I suppose there is some logic to that - we would just need to codify rules regarding what kinds of things should be in templates.

Personally, I support Serpent King's suggestion. Just seems to be the best option for cutting down on clutter and remaining consistent with other templates like the character template and item templates, while still keeping the template in the first place. John HUAH! 18:18, 11 September 2018 (EDT)

Since discussion over this has gone by and the template remained unchanged, I thought I'd bump this with how the template would look like, following SerpentKing's suggestion:

This to me seems like the best way the template could look currently without it being a garbled mess of words, and I'm personally against removing it altogether.

Keeping this tidy is especially important with Ultimate coming out and having upcoming DLC fighters' Final Smashes clutter up the template even more than it is currently, and I'd rather not have it be as it is currently when a new game comes up with more Final Smashes to add up.

Because of this, I'll (hopefully) be putting this topic to rest with a final vote before Ultimate releases: whether you support the re-do or wish to keep the template as it is. — Nokii (T·C·L) 19:06, 13 November 2018 (EST)

I'm going to bump this once again, because now we have more information and can either:

A. make it more organized, or

B. delete the thing entirely.

If it were to be more organized, I present (albeit slightly edited from before) the revision I presented above:

I hold a neutral opinion myself; on one hand, I do think it shouldn't be deleted, as the Final Smashes are cool are the Smash equivalent of Super Arts/Hyper Combos/Fatalities/Blockbusters, and having them easily accessible in a place that isn't a category would be reasonable; that said, they are also all easily accessible on the page that describes them, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if it went, but that might mean a bit more organization is needed on the page itself. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 15:05, 27 November 2018 (EST)

I definitely oppose deletion. I like Aidan's proposal, but would really be fine with any of the tweaks suggested so far. SuperFalconBros (talk) 18:40, 27 November 2018 (EST)