Category talk:Female smashers

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Of what use is this category? It does not seem useful or relevant.

Mako Shark (talk) 20:20, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Umm, it lists the female professional smashers. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 22:18, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

I know this may be outdated, since MLG now holds Brawl events, but I'm assuming this is the true definition of a professional smasher as per the article: "One who regularly makes money off of the game and/or one who is recruited and sponsored by a notable organization, such as MLG. Due to MLG and other major gaming corporations not sponsoring smash anymore, a professional is usually considered the person at the top of the metagame of that said character."

The majority of the smashers in the category do not fall under this description, as they are either not ranked as professionals, or do not show evidence of notable tournament placements or performance at 'the top of the metagame'. As such, there are very few of them who qualify as professionals, which reduces the number of members in this category to less than five, maybe. It doesn't seem appropriate for a category to exist if it accommodates such a small number.

Also, in terms of the Smash scene, of what significance and relevance are peoples' genders, anyway? Is there any reason the female players are grouped into their own category? Mako Shark (talk) 05:17, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Nuking aside, does anyone disagree with my assertion that this category is not needed? If not, is it possible to delete it? Mako Shark (talk) 06:35, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I completely disagree with this category being removed. First, most of the people in this are "professionals" and/or otherwise notable. Second, while gender is not important per se, the number of female smashers is disproportionally low so as to merit special mention about the exceptional female smasher. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 17:42, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

So, what qualifies as notable? Helping organise and advertise local tournaments? Showing some degree of skill at the competitive level? Beating high level competitive players in friendly matches? Just being part of a minority, despite gender being unimportant (what about transsexuals)? Mako Shark (talk) 08:38, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

(1) We're not deleting this category because aside from their notability, and our interest in having complete information, a community that is predominantely male is very interested in the few members who of the opposite sex for very predictable and cliche reasons (2) the population of transsexual smashers is likely so infinitesimal that not even they would register objection to their lack of inclusion. Semicolon (talk) 20:58, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I know there are probably no transsexuals, I was just being an ass. So one of the reasons the girls are singled out is because boys are interested in them? While I'm no longer against the existence of this category, that just seems uncalled for. Mako Shark (talk) 04:05, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

You know what, I take that back, no hard feelings. In reference to "very predictable and cliche reasons", at least you admitted the truth :D Mako Shark (talk) 05:08, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

"What qualifies as notable" is covered over here. Toomai Glittershine

The Table Designer 13:17, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I never knew that page existed. I've also learned that I should actually be one of the players in this category. Thanks, Toomai. Mako Shark (talk) 13:33, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I still have reservations about this category

I still think it shouldn't exist. I don't see any relation between gender and notability as a Smasher, just as I see no relation between sexual orientation, hair colour or chosen religion and notability as a smasher. I am aware that the number of female smashers is significantly small in comparison to that of males, and that, in general, girls rarely show interest in video games, but I do not understand why these qualify as reasons for the category to exist. The strongest arguments for the continuation of its existence are "our interest in having complete information; a community that is predominantely male is very interested in the few members who of the opposite sex for very predictable and cliche reasons".

The information won't be any more or less complete without the category, since the female smashers' articles will still indicate that they are female. As far as 'predictable and cliche reasons' go, I should remind people that this is a Wikia, and that it does not exist to serve such purposes. Sites like AllisBrawl, which have groups that female players may voluntarily join, are equally as, if not more effective. I also know that there are girls out there who would prefer to be looked upon as regular players, not 'girl players'. This is the only page I have reservations about. Mako Shark (talk) 18:27, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

So you don't object to having female smashers marked on their pages, but you object to them being collected in a category? Categories are superficial representations of clusters of related data. How is that objectionable? These data are related in a significant and interesting way. I see no compelling reason to eliminate it. Semicolon (talk) 04:26, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we need this category. Do we need a "Category:Black smashers"? (Not the best example but an example nevertheless.) Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 19:15, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I perfectly agree here. I never did thought this category should belong and people shouldn't be categorized based on their sex. Just like Toomai said, we don't categorized smashers based on race and this should be no different. Omega Tyrant 19:22, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

And the only justification I see against having this category is that you don't see a reason for it to exist. How is that a good reason to delete it? Semicolon (talk) 00:46, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Why should a article/category exist that doesn't have a valid objective reason to belong on this Wiki? Omega Tyrant 01:19, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Because it does have a "valid objective reason" to be on this wiki. It documents the existence of a minority of players. I will also point out that this has been here for years without complaints; in fact, this was made by a female smasher herself. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:31, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

The fact that a female smasher created this category is completely irrelevant to whether or not this category is valid. The fact that it been on this Wiki for years is also irrelevant. Smashtasm been on this Wiki for years and was even a featured article. Yet when it was decided that Smashtasm no longer belonged, it was deleted regardless. If the only reason this category exists because it represents a minority, why not create a category for every other minority? Omega Tyrant 03:17, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

It exists because it's clustering data. It's a category. Categories cluster data. Imagine a newbie to the Smash scene coming here, boy or girl, really doesn't matter. S/he looks for Mew2King because his friend says he looks like a jackass, and discovers that indeed, Mew2King does strongly resemble to typical profile of a child molester. This individual then looks up more information on Mew2King and sees that Mew2King (for the sake of this example) played and won a series against Marin, a member of What Are the Oddz. That's interesting, the individual says, and wonders what other girls play smash. This category is a convenient representation of information that is curious. There is no compelling reason to delete it. Semicolon (talk) 04:26, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I know what a category is and what their purpose is for. In all due respect, I really don't see how your example justifies the existence of this category. I really don't see the significance of M2K, one of the most known and best smashers in the world, defeating Marin, someone who is largely unknown and is certainly well below his skill level. I also don't see the significance of her being a member of What Are the Oddz. While you see no compelling reason to delete, I really don't see a compelling reason that this category should be kept. As mentioned before, if we are going to keep this category, we might as well categorize every other minority. Omega Tyrant 05:09, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Semicolon, in response to your first comment, no, I do not object to having female smashers "marked" on their pages, because it's not really possible to write an article about a person without distinguishing his or her gender. The purpose of a Wikia is to provide useful information, not to sate the curiosity of people who are interested in learning about female smash players. As I mentioned before, there are active groups on AiB and other appropriate places for those people. If they find a smasher there who interests them, they can look that person up here.

Categories cluster relevant data, and there is no relation between gender and notability as a smasher. It is unreasonable for this category to document a minority whose characteristics have no relation to their notability as smashers, when there are other such minorities that aren't documented. For example, there is no "Category:Christian Smashers", or "Category:Gay Smashers", although there are likely others interested in learning the identities of such people. Mako Shark (talk) 07:55, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not indenting because indents are on strike and I don't like scabs. And oh, how I disagree. Wiki's are precisely about curiosity. Nobody comes here hoping not to learn something. We have trivia sections galore expressly for fulfilling the curiosities of our readers. And I'm telling you, whether you like it or not, female smashers are of far greater interest to a predominantely male community than are other minorities. The reason female smashers are more notable is because there are fewer of them. Were the community nearly entirely Asian, the smattering of white smashers would be interested in each other, and would be a curiosity for the Asians. The fact is that likely 95% of the community is male, and so 5% is very clearly unusual in comparison to the rest and thereby quite important to document. I would imagine that the proportion of gay smashers may or may not be similar but seeing as peoples' sexual orientation literally does not and never will belong on our pages, we'll not be documenting them for that reason precisely. If you want to mark African American smashers or some other minorities, be my guest. They're not nearly as notable as female smashers because the population of African American smashers, is, last I checked, rather high compared to the general population, but I could be completely wrong because I'm not sure my source is reliable. But if you want to do that, have at it, but don't mark 'Christian Smashers' because religion is not salient and does not belong on a wiki page. We go for two things here: salient and interesting. Religion, sexual orientation, and yeah I think race too but I'm not willing to argue this one to the grave, are not interesting. Playing video games competitively and indeed playing video games is an unusual activity for females, and I'd like to see you try and deny that with something other than anecdotes. That is why it's notable. It's anomalous, and thereby worthy of us documenting it. It's also awesome to see girls that could kick my ass at smash. Semicolon (talk) 15:48, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I did overlook the fact that it's unusual for females to play games. Might have something to do with the fact that all of my female friends are gamers. Anyway, you're definitely correct that it's unusual for girls to compete, which somehow didn't cross my mind in the right way. That point alone seems good enough of a reason to keep the category, and I'm sorry for being stubborn and chewing up your time. My reservations stemmed from the fact that, like a lot of girls and a lot of minorities, female gamers often get singled out, looked down upon, and treated like crap by the guys. Being part of this minority, I know that from personal experience, and I know that I'd prefer not to be categorised for this reason. Anyway, you've made your point; the category itself seems harmless; I'll stop bothering with it, thanks for all the fun. Mako Shark (talk) 16:17, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Nominating this category for deletion is fucking ridiculous

For starters, if anyone who tagged for deletion actually read the above, they would see that this discussion has been done over and over again. This category exists for the same reason why Category:Smashers who participate in SmashWiki exists: it's an extreme minority, and it is of interest to others. If there was anything else I would have to say, I would just be rehashing what has already been said above. Air Conditioner is a Mr. Saturn. 19:23, 16 December 2012 (EST)

Support for deletion

Weak support leaning towards neutral. While the logic is right and it's useless, there's not many female smashers, so it's just as a point of interest to see which smashers were female and professional at some point or still are. I don't see a point to have it, while I mostly don't see a point to remove it as it's not a useless category. F0rZ3r0F0r (talk) 02:24, 5 November 2015 (EST)

I agree above, because I also see it is a point of interest, though my stance is oppose deletion, with support for adding a category for male Smashers. That'd make it fair/equal whatever, though that might take more work. Aardvarkian (Talk • Contributions) 16:02, 8 November 2015 (EST)

Weak support. I can see some value in this category, but it doesn't seem quite relevant enough to Smash Bros. or the competitive scene.

Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 16:49, 9 November 2015 (EST)

A category that would categorize 99% of pages is a useless category. I don't care for this category and I would not mind seeing it gone, but creating a "Male smashers" category that would have absolutely no organizational worth is not an appropriate response to this category's existence. Omega Tyrant 07:35, 11 November 2015 (EST)

Yeah, I gotta agree with that. Shifting to Support. Aardvarkian (Talk • Contributions) 16:09, 11 November 2015 (EST)

Weak opposition It's a break of the routine and is an interesting novelty, but, like Nyargleblargle said, not much value outside of that. Drill Blaster Mark 2 (talk) 05:23, 11 November 2015 (EST)

Shifting to support because the article is kinda redundant at this point. Drill Blaster Mark 2 (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Strong support. A useless, unproductive category whose effects would be nothing special. Ganonmew, The Thankful Evil Clone 08:56, 11 November 2015 (EST) Weak support Unique category, but what gender a smasher is is not important. Dots (talk) The Wii U 16:12, 11 November 2015 (EST)

Support: Do I even need to say it??? MeatBall104 16:42, 11 November 2015 (EST)

Support for deletion. As per the deletion tag, unnecessary. John PK SMAAAASH!! 16:51, 15 November 2015 (EST)

Neutral. Just as a suggestion, if this category gets deleted we could have a "List of Smashers" that links to their individual pages, while having their names, locations, perhaps their mains, and gender, etc. That way everyone would be happy, I guess... --Gabo 2oo (talk) 20:26, 16 November 2015 (EST)

Weak support. Possibly useful if we want to know about any female smasher, but useless outside of that. --BeepYou (talk) 20:41, 16 November 2015 (EST)

VERY strong support: Why should we even care about sex across subjects? It's absolutely pointless considering the general sex imbalance amongst smashers (male ratio is FAR LARGER than female ratio), and having a Male smashers category does not contradict this, because of what I said about ratio. Besides, having this category around sounds pretty sexist anyways, again because of what I said regarding ratio (my toe!). R.I.P. Sergeant Gary "Roach" Sanderson - Drilly the Hedgehog 02:13, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Support I have to agree with the deletion for two reasons: 1: Because gender is not exactly the reason people would want to see these articles, and 2: Because there's a huge difference between the amount of male smashers there are and the amount of female smashers. Also, like Drilly said, it could be perceived by some as sexist and not being treated equal. Disaster Flare (talk) 00:15, 19 November 2015 (EST)

Women are a minority here. Then again, that's not all that interesting. Weak support. Papayazzi (talk) 05:09, 19 November 2015 (EST)

Although, I wish people based their views of this more on common sense, not on this whole fear of appearing sexist bullshit. Papayazzi (talk) 05:19, 19 November 2015 (EST)

I won't fight a deletion for this, but I will point out that no one here really provided a strong refute to Semicolon's post back when this was last seriously disputed. Omega Tyrant 11:53, 19 November 2015 (EST)

Here's the way I see it.

On one hand, it is an intriguing collection of data that one might find when exploring the entirety of Smash, so there's at least some significance. On the other, it's a very small collection of data, and arguably has little importance. That is what I'm getting when reading this whole page (specifically, OT and Semicolon's debate a few sections back).

Having the category is, again, important, but we don't have any other minorities categorized. Female gamers as a whole, while increasing as of recent times, are still very rare to find, and fewer are actually competitive gamers; that said, I don't see a reason to represent such a small minority through a category like this. That all being said, I support deletion of this category.

Aidan, the Wandering Space Warrior

12:01, 19 November 2015 (EST)

I wasn't really into this at first, but OT's right, in that Semicolon poses a good argument. This category does indeed fall within the purposes of this wiki. There's no reason to delete it. Why are people on Smashwiki? To learn something. Maybe they're looking for something specific like how much damage an attack does, and maybe while they're here they'll come across something that piques their interest and then see or click on it. Either way. Most Smashers are male. What if someone was like "Oh, look at all these men. I wonder if there are any female Smashers?" Would this not be helpful in finding that out? Deleting this means one less notable things you can find here, and I'm pretty sure we as a wiki should cover notable things such as this. That's kinda why this wiki exists. It is uncommon to find female gamers and even more rare to find competitive female gamers. Also, why push to delete this when there is a whole lot of useless trivia around here? We have the crowd cheers, the victory poses, the rumors, the means of how characters are revealed. Is that all not minute and pointless? Yet we have some of that because some it is somewhat notable, and deemed "interesting" by whatever measure or gauge we choose to use. "___ is the only ____ to ____." "____ is one of _____ to _____." We have categories for Smashers in different continents and countries. We also have categories for those involved in the wiki, who moderate Smashboards, and who are on YouTube, who are a "minority" overall, just like female smashers. You can't deny they're a minority, or a highly possible point of interest. I personally don't find it interesting, but you can bet your ass others do as well. Sorry if it feels like I'm rambling here, but with all this, I'm changing my position to Strong Oppose. Papayazzi (talk) 17:27, 19 November 2015 (EST)

After thinking about it a bit more, I'm going to officially oppose the deletion of this. My feelings from 5 years ago when I argued to delete this as a wiki newbie are still the same, I don't like this category and would prefer it to be gone. But at the same time, "I don't like it" isn't a valid reason for deletion and sure as hell isn't a remote refute to Semicolon's post. Additionally, if we were to delete it now without any strong reason for doing so, it just looks like we're exploiting the absence of Semicolon and ClarinetHawk to get it deleted, when nothing has changed since they successfully argued for it staying, something I find to be a violation of the wiki's core principals.

So until I see an actual good refute, or the amount of notable female smashers explodes to where it's no longer a rarity to see them, I won't be supporting the deletion of this. Omega Tyrant 20:20, 20 November 2015 (EST)

Changing my opinion to oppose. As I think about it, we as humans never accomplished anything by being overly sensitive over subjects, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that this exists, as there's a 10:1 ratio between the genders notably involved in the Smash scene. This has to stay, at least until if and when the day comes where more notable female smashers enter the scene. Disaster Flare (talk) 01:04, 22 November 2015 (EST)

Strong Oppose Regardless of balance or not, since females make a small number of the population, they'd be considered unique. We don't need a "Male smashers" category however. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 01:16, 22 November 2015 (EST)

Neutral. I see how many people are supportive in the deletion of this category; because a matched pair of X chromosomes should not determine a player's skill. But then, reiterating what other contributors say below me, why are people on smash wiki in the first place? To learn. This category has educational value, but seems a little sexist. As compromise, why don't we create a category of all male smashers? Or as Gabo 2oo suggests, why don't we have a "list of smashers" with gender included -- if it's THAT big of a deal? Ubiquittea (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

Please keep in mind this discussion ended quite a while ago. Bringing it up again wouldn't do any good. Disaster Flare

(talk) 21:25, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

I apologize, 5 months ago seemed fairly recent to me, as the first objection was back in 2010. Just leaving my opinion about deletion, for something to consider. Ubiquittea (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

Deletion, 3

This category is back up for deletion. Previous discussions eventually settled on "keep" for reasons such as "some people find it interesting" or "it's not doing any harm". I think things have changed since then (both on this wiki and in the community), and there is more reason than ever to get rid of it. Simply put, I think us having this category gives these players the wrong kind of attention, and we should not be an enabler for it. I don't think I need to elaborate much more than that. Toomai Glittershine The Polychromatic 21:21, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

Support unless we create a “male smashers category, but even then, a competitive player’s sex is the last thing I would find interesting about them. Lou Cena (talk) 21:28, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

I've seen with my own eyes people doing a 180 flip when, after raging against someone online about a video game, they find out the person they were raging against to be a female - in hopes of suddenly getting on their good side and, as they say, "shooting their shot", solely because it must be absurd to think that a female, heaven forbid, play a video game. To be quite frank, separating people based on gender (which nowadays is a more touchy subject than ever, with people all over the world deciding that they don't even fall on either side) only drives it further into the ground that they're different from the "standard" male audience - they're just people who play video games. There's no reason to be segregative about this. Aidan, the Rurouni 21:36, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

Please Let's be rid of this category. And no, no "male smasher" category. Serpent King 09:57, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

Support per reasons above. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer Leave a message if needed 10:12, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

I mean...it doesn't seem any less necessary that say Category:North American smashers, but it's not really important enough to me to make any sort of case here. Just an observation I have. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 12:10, July 13, 2019 (EDT)

That's a terrible comparison; it's a part of the regional category tree, while this stands by itself. Toomai Glittershine Le Grand Fromage 12:17, July 13, 2019 (EDT)

I think you're missing the point. Smasher articles can get multiple categories attached to them, for various groups of smashers that they fit in to. What I'm getting at is that region and gender are both examples of groups of people, and I'm not particularly convinced that either is more significant or deserving of a category. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 12:20, July 13, 2019 (EDT)

Toomai has a point. In, say, the Olympics, you care less about gender of the individual person (even in a gender-separated sport, like football) than the country they represent, yes? It's the same here. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:42, July 13, 2019 (EDT)

Support. A gender category seems pointless to me, especially when there is no male smashers category (which in itself is even more pointless). Cookies Creme 12:48, July 13, 2019 (EDT)

Support. Competitive-wise, there has never been a need to make a distinction between a smasher's gender. This is in contrast with regions, as their distinction is needed for regional Power rankings, for instance, and as such are much more appropriate as a category than gender. Nokii — 14:43, July 13, 2019 (EDT)

Support. Make a male category, or don't have this at all. Besides, someone else argued there are categories for African-american players and such, so there's no reason not to have that category if this is going to exist. If someone somehow has the principles to document every male Smash player, they probably deserve a medal. However, there is no way this category isn't harmful to women in the Smash community, speaking as a trans woman myself. I've been stalked enough times, and know that someone here could well fall victim due to this category. In argument against the Male Smashers category, it feels pointless and could well lead to a similar awkward situation. On top of this, it would only be around as an excuse to keep this one. It feels largely irrelevant to have something on a player's identity in the first place too though, so perhaps they should all just be removed. Plague von Karma (talk) 00:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose. In fact, let's create a male category too. It's good to know what pronouns to use for a person. I don't want to accidentally call a woman a "he." If people react negatively to losing to a girl, and change their attitude upon realizing the person's gender, just call them out on their sexism. And besides, if there's are categories for North American, African and Asian smashers which also doesn't matter to the competitive scene. If we have categories about where these players are from, there's nothing wrong with gender categories. And there is still no universally accepted gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun. Sometimes people use "they" but that word is only appropriate as a plural word and if we start calling a single person "they," we'd might as well start saying "we" while we're alone. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:00, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

First, we refer to the players as "he", "she", etc. on their smasher pages already, so that's unnecessary. Second, we have categories for smashers mainly to distinguish regions for power rankings; I'd argue that region categories are more important also. Cookies

Creme 18:04, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Pronouns can be used on the page themselves, rather than having to distinguish them with unnecessary categories. And besides, in this day and age, there are probably lots of people who identify on neither, making yet another unnecessary category needed to be created. Aidan, the Rurouni 18:49, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, I guess it's hard to avoid pronouns when writing an article on someone, so you got a point there. But I don't see much harm in having a category for a gender. Okay, since the characters don't have gender categories either and we don't have a male category, I guess we could delete? Or if we have regions for power rankings, maybe we could have gender rankings too? Sports have been gender-segregated and there has been outrage over transgenders beating real women in sports. Smash may not the same as physical sports, but I think people who would be into gender studies and don't have time to look for "he" and "she" in the text might want this category. But then again, they could use the information for their sexist identity politics, and the regional categories can be used for their racist identity politics. A racist can gather the information from the African and Asian smasher categories to say Asians are better than blacks or something. So maybe if we shouldn't have gender categories, we shouldn't have regional smasher categories either? I have no clue... Just change my vote to neutral. SeanWheeler (talk) 22:43, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

"Since the characters don't have gender categories either (...)"

Whether character pages have such (which is arguably even more unnecessary) has no bearing towards a category used exclusively for smasher pages.

"Maybe we could have gender rankings too?"

That's not up to the wiki to decide. If such a thing exists (which is fairly unlikely), then this category can be properly put into consideration.

"Sports have been gender-segregated (...)"

These issues are irrelevant to any of the Smash tournaments covered in the wiki, where no such segregation exists.

"People who (...) don't have time to look for "he" and "she" in the text might want this category."

Smasher pages usually have their pronouns used in the first few lines of text, which are at the top of the page as opposed to categories, which are in the bottom. Most people won't scroll all the way down the page to look for its categories if they can't bother reading the start of the page.

"They could use the information for their sexist identity politics, (...)"

...and will continue to do so regardless of this category existing. Same goes for regional categories, as well as anything else the wiki covers. Nokii — 03:43, July 21, 2019 (EDT)

Alright, given the consensus-based support, I think it's high time this got deleted - anyone else have anything they'd like to add? Aidan, the Rurouni 10:53, July 29, 2019 (EDT)

Call me when rankings start separating Smashers by gender instead of just country of origin. Until they do, get this off the wiki. - EndGenuity (talk) 12:02, August 2, 2019 (EDT)

The consensual opinion is that this category should be deleted, and it will be handled over the coming days. This discussion is now closed. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:08, August 2, 2019 (EDT)