User talk:Toomai/Archive 11: Difference between revisions

I have a couple of questions. Damage not inclusive, if moves in Project M are identical to their Melee versions, can their names/descriptions be copy and pasted? Also, if there are aesthetic/cosmetic differences in the moves (for example, Roy's Blazer having a different animation based on a move from another character in a different game), should those go in the move descriptions or under a trivia section? While I don't have much experience in Project M yet, I have been watching and reading a fair amount on it, so I'd just like to know how I should go about adding info. Also, this is completely unrelated, but should there be an article on Air Dash Online? If you haven't heard of it, it's some platform fighter being developed by a group of Smash Bros. players (Mew2King and Wobbles, for instance). MarioGalaxy^Talk 07:58, 26 November 2013 (EST)

I don't know about copy-paste, but it's better than just "same as other game, see there" or a blank. Aesthetic differences should probably go in the moveset; reserve trivia for things that can't really be attached to a single move.

Air Dash Online is not a Smash Bros. game or a notable mod of one, so it doesn't deserve a mention outside maybe a sentence or two on the creators' smasher pages. Toomai Glittershine

The Free 10:08, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Article Icons and userboxes

Is it OK if I use article icons, like this one and this one, for userboxes on my userpage? Dark Fox 01The Complex 19:49, 30 November 2013 (EST)

No reason why not. Toomai Glittershine

The Rainbow 22:02, 30 November 2013 (EST)

Question regarding merging accounts

Is it possible for a user to create an account and then have it merged into a different user's account without issue? Such as, an old pre-move user creates an account on this wiki under a name different from their old SmashWikia account, and they never registered the old account name. Would another user be able to register the old account name, and then have the account merged into the old user's new account, without the old user losing control of their account (or experiencing any other security issues)? Omega Tyrant 13:35, 1 December 2013 (EST)

Okay let me see if I get the example scenario:

A was a notable user pre-move with an account named A1.
Post-move, A makes an account called A2 and starts using that instead. A1 is unregistered.
B makes an account called A1.
B is told to make an account called B1. Does so.
A1 is merged into A2.

Depending on how strong merging is, B might not be able to log in to A1 without A2's password. In any case I don't see how he could log in to A1 at all if it's deleted as part of the merge. So based on what I know, I'd say "probably okay but test it yourself first". Toomai Glittershine

The Prismatic 14:13, 1 December 2013 (EST)

Ok, lets test this, merge this account with Primid. Primid B (talk) 19:31, 1 December 2013 (EST)

Alright, I'll merge without deletion to see what happens. Toomai Glittershine

The Indescribable 22:15, 1 December 2013 (EST)

So I can't log into Primid with Primid B's password, and attempting an email reset will send the email to A's email address still and not B's. Additionally, it seems I can edit just fine still with B. So it seems it'll be fine to go through with the aforementioned scenario, unless you can think of any security concerns to check out? Primid B (talk) 09:14, 2 December 2013 (EST)

Well looking at contributions, A has B's pre-merge contributions, but not the post-merge ones, whereas B has both. So B still has full control over the account and can continue editing under that name until they forget their pasword, in which case A is sent the reset password and it becomes theirs. I don't like that outcome. If something like this were to be done we'd have to merge with deletion, not without, and even then then the deleted username goes back up for registration by someone else.

If we wanted to keep a historical username "safe", I'm not sure merging is the solution. What exactly is the case you're thinking of? Toomai Glittershine

The Honcho 10:15, 2 December 2013 (EST)

Specifically, Silverdragon706 and FyreNWater. Fyre came on here without registering her old Silverdragon account, and when I told her about it, she still didn't register it. So I was thinking, instead of hassling her to do it, an admin (or bureaucrat) could just register the Silverdragon account, and then have it merged with Fyre's current account. With an admin/b'crat handling the old account, we don't have to worry about it still being used post-merged, and for extra assurance, the old account can be permablocked after the merge. Then we can do this for any other cases we come across without needing the old user to come on here and cooperate. Omega Tyrant

10:39, 2 December 2013 (EST)

Actually, we could just merge with deletion, and then the admin/b'crat just reregisters the old account right after and then permablocks it. Omega Tyrant

10:40, 2 December 2013 (EST)

So, is there any problems with going through with this? Omega Tyrant

15:29, 3 December 2013 (EST)

Still need a response on this. Omega Tyrant

10:18, 4 December 2013 (EST)

How about you create the "Silverdragon706" account and tell FyreNWater the password through e-mail or something? Or at least tell them "hey, we did this for safekeeping, tell me if you want the password". Toomai Glittershine

The Resolute 13:06, 4 December 2013 (EST)

Someone has a claim about Melee G&W

The claim is that G&W's nair, up air, and back air cannot be L-Canceled because the game (or rather the game's pointers holding info on the moves) consider those moves special moves instead of aerials. Confirm or Deny.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 02:16, 6 December 2013 (EST)

I don't know how the pointers work (the moveset data itself is as expected), but I do know that there's credence to the idea. While other characters go into the AttackAirN (LandingAirN), AttackAirB (LandingAirB), and AttackAirHi (LandingAirHi) actions, G&W goes into the 347 (350), 348 (351), and 349 (352) actions; actions in that range are reserved for character-specific things such as special moves (for example Mario's Fireball while grounded is 343). The subactions (animations) are the same as all other characters, but that doesn't have an effect on the mechanics. Similar things happen with Ness's yo-yo smashes and Kirby's dash attack. Toomai Glittershine

The Yoshi 10:02, 6 December 2013 (EST)

The claim is true. Kadano talk 07:48, 26 January 2014 (EST)

Name change

I need to change my name. Can you please change it to OrangeBooloon? Smashballz (talk) 22:14, 8 December 2013 (EST)

Also, can my new name be "MeatBall104"? SmashBall104: Aw, hayell no! 17:46, 9 December 2013 (EST)

These users

Special:Contributions/EpicLuigiDude
Special:Contributions/TheEpicUltraLuigi

Have you checked the IP of these two users; with their contributions both consisting of removing stuff from Smash Arena, I'm suspicious that the latter is a sockpuppet. Scr7(talk · contribs) 11:05, 10 December 2013 (EST)

Indeed. Toomai Glittershine

The Emissary 11:24, 10 December 2013 (EST)

Quick Question

Does undoing vandal edits or reporting sockpuppets count as useful wiki contributions? ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) 14:54, 17 December 2013 (EST)

Of course they do. Omega Tyrant

15:03, 17 December 2013 (EST)

I'd say yes, but not in the same way as actually improving pages. Someone who only ever undoes or reports problems is a useful asset yes, but I wouldn't call them a "contributor". Just my opinion of the semantics. Toomai Glittershine

The Orchestral 16:16, 17 December 2013 (EST)

Can Yoshi still Parry in Brawl?

You know that thing in Melee where he was invincible for 6ish frames before his shield was raised and he could like take a hit -> double jump cancel aerial/double jump cancel land down smash. I think the loss of that would make Yoshi unquestionably worse in brawl than he is in melee. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 23:57, 21 December 2013 (EST)

I looked where I expected such data to be and found nothing, but that's the kind of thing that could be in the middle of nowhere or in a format I can't read. I'm sure SmashBoards knows. Toomai Glittershine

The Labbie 00:11, 22 December 2013 (EST)

Nothing on Smashboards. According to the PMBR though, he did not have it.--Brian^{Don't try me!}

01:33, 22 December 2013 (EST)

How do Meteor Cancels work in each game?

I know in Melee, MCing is done 8 frames after the hitlag, and any attempt to MC before that will result in you being unable to cancel for the rest of the hitstun (like missing a tech). How does it work in Brawl and PM? I know brawl has character specific delays and in PM there is a universal 16 frame delay. Still, I here claims of a "no fail window" in PM and Brawl. Confirm or Deny?--Brian^{Don't try me!} 02:23, 26 December 2013 (EST)

Well according to the article, Brawl's fail window is 40 frames, but it doesn't apply if you up special (only if you jump). Toomai Glittershine

The Trumpeteer 10:54, 26 December 2013 (EST)

I can't get access.

Pikachu (SSB), Kirby (SSB), camping, and others, see this, it takes a huge load of time for them to load or they might not even giving me access. Is there a problem with these pages? Dots (talk) The Team Fortress 2 11:46, 26 December 2013 (EST)

We don't know why, see here. Toomai Glittershine

The Emissary 11:47, 26 December 2013 (EST)

After some thinking I believe the issue is with the .gifs of large filesize causing the thumbnailing script to take a long time to run. I'm going to try and cut them down and see if things improve. Toomai Glittershine

The Labbie 12:15, 26 December 2013 (EST)

Smash arena suggestions

If a Smash Arena suggestion is invalid, are any non-admin allowed to delete them? ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2014 (EST)

If it's unambiguously invalid, yes. Toomai Glittershine

El Pollo 17:55, 7 January 2014 (EST)

Smasher pics

I probably should've asked this beforehand (in actuality, probably 4 YEARS ago starting with Ken's pic, but the Wiki's move made that moot), but when adding a more recent pic to a Smasher's page, should I upload it as a separate file (which is what I've been doing), or to the same file history as the one being used at that point in time? I'd just like to know before I go about updating profile pics based on how recent or higher quality my upload is. MarioGalaxy^Talk 13:31, 13 January 2014 (EST)

If the image type is the same, the new version is of obvious higher quality, and there's no need for the old version to stick around as part of a gallery or something, I see no problem with uploading over the old version; that way people who go to the image page can see the older versions, and we don't have to delete anything for disuse. Toomai Glittershine

The Sharp 13:35, 13 January 2014 (EST)

Samus/Zero Suit Samus Icon

Dots told me I could ask you about making a char icon for Samus / ZSS so can you? --TheLegendaryKRB (talk) 20:44, 13 January 2014 (EST) /

Sorry but I only make character icons that the wiki needs, and I don't think we need a Samus/ZSS icon. Toomai Glittershine

Da Bomb 19:58, 14 January 2014 (EST)

Pokemon X/Y

Do you play pokemon X or y?MetaMewtwoSoul 17:09, 16 January 2014 (EST)

No, I'm not particularily interested in it. Toomai Glittershine

The Inconceivable 17:14, 16 January 2014 (EST)

I think

that this page is wrong. I posted it on the talk page. Thoughts?

Hey you can ban, right?

So this wonderful user is doing this and ignoring SW:MoS, SW:1RV, and these, as well as being just horrible at grammar and style, insisting that we are "illegally uploading pictures of people" and only editing one article, making it worse every eingle time. Just look at the history of that article really quick. Ryxis (talk) 04:35, 22 January 2014 (EST)

In future, it is probably better to go to the admin noticeboard if you want to bring something to any staff member's attention. Toomai Glittershine

The Cloronic 08:56, 22 January 2014 (EST)

So is like edgehogging not a thing anymore?

This game is gonna be bad :'( --Brian^{Don't try me!} 11:02, 22 January 2014 (EST)

My (unsubstantiated but not uneducated) guess is that you edgehog if you're still intangible, but you can have the edge stolen if you're not. So edgehogging will still exist, but it'll be harder to do if you mess around offstage beforehand without landing, or the opponent has a percentage lead.

I am however SUPREMELY disappointed they removed the mechanic of fast and slow edge recoveries though (there was no real reason to remove it, and it had three games' worth of "series inertia"), and I suspect all such recoveries wll be made to be a bit slower than the fast ones of previous games to compensate. Toomai Glittershine

The Indescribable 13:13, 22 January 2014 (EST)

Sorry to butt in, but exactly why do we need fast/slow edge recoveries, especially slow edge recoveries?

Green Mario 14:11, 22 January 2014 (EST)

It's a natural mixup to opponents that aren't paying attention, and discourages high-damage players from hanging out at the sides of the stage. SSB64 even had a few that were faster than the low-damage ones (DK comes to mind), which would be a unique advantage. Toomai Glittershine

The Free 14:22, 22 January 2014 (EST)

So, what do you think is going to happen once the edge recovery is removed? I always found slow edge recoveries to be a hassle and slow me down, but that's probably just an error in my part that needs fixing. What I do want is somehow buff attacking edge recoveries, especially the slow ones. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

Green Mario 14:29, 22 January 2014 (EST)

I'm not sure. I get the feeling that the fast ones will be kept and slowed down slightly, as opposed to keeping the slow ones, or making new ones up that are in between. It might help characters with good fast edge attacks like Bowser (well assuming his doesn't change); they won't consider attacking with 100%+ a liability anymore. Toomai Glittershine

The Spectrum 15:08, 22 January 2014 (EST)

In Melee, having more than 100 damage while hanging on the ledge usually encourages staying at the ledge because most characters have no good options to get up on stage. Fox and Falco can ledgedash with lots of free intangibility, but characters like Marth, Peach and many others do not have this option. Having fast ledge getups even above 100% would certainly encourage going up. Kadano talk 07:46, 26 January 2014 (EST)

Unmodded PM characters

I was under the impression that the "for the unmodded version of" things should link to the gameplay base of the characters instead of the visual base, but if they're supposed to link to the Brawl version, then okay. Perhaps a second for template should be put in to link to the gameplay bases? (Characters added in 3.0 versions already have these.) I just want consistency between the articles.

Side note, the infoboxes all have a section for "Base game appearance" which is incredibly redundant. Every character except for Mewtwo and Roy is based on their Brawl version, and those two were completely redone for their appearance in PM, so you could hardly even say that they were based on their Melee versions. Ryxis (talk) 18:36, 23 January 2014 (EST)

The concept of "base" is "this is what the modders started with". They may have the goal of getting Kirby to act like his Melee version, but the code they're working with is the Brawl version, so that's the base. I do support the idea of having two links for Melee characters, one for the base and another for the intended design. As for Mewtwo and Roy, they have no choice but to be based on their Melee versions, since while technically their code is based on Lucario and Marth, that's not really useful information.

I do somewhat agree that the "base game appearance" in the infobox is kinda redundant given the "for this" links. Then again, it could be seen the other way around - by adding a "design base" field or something to the infobox, the "for this" links would be redundant and could be removed. Toomai Glittershine

The Different 18:45, 23 January 2014 (EST)

I think editing the infobox would be the best course of action. We could ditch all the for templates and just have the infobox on the side, then, and this would deal with both redundancy and the clutter of having two for templates at the top of an article. The "Based game appearance" could be changed to "Visual base" or done away with all together, and another set of parameters could be brought in for the "Moveset base." (It would need at least three. Toon Link draws from himself, Young Link, and 64 Link. Mario draws from himself and Doc.) Also, if you feel it's necessary, we could keep the for template for the unmodded version. Ryxis (talk) 19:05, 23 January 2014 (EST)

Here's what I think should be done to the infobox:

"Base game apperance" links to the character's Brawl version. If they don't have one, it's left blank (not omitted).
"Design inspiration" can have anything input. Most Brawl newcomers would omit it. Most Melee veterans would link to their Melee version, plus their 64 version if a decent part of their moveset comes from there (Toon Link has multiple moves so yes, Pikachu has just one so no). Mario could link to Dr. Mario there too.

Toomai Glittershine

The Bold 19:11, 23 January 2014 (EST)

That took longer than it should have, but I updated the template and applied it to Mario (PM).Ryxis (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2014 (EST)

Okay it looks good. Toomai Glittershine

The Eggster 23:34, 23 January 2014 (EST)

Request name change...

...to "Monsieur Crow". Space included, please.

btw hi toomai

--- Rei Demon, Author Extraordinaire, 21:40, 26 January 2014 (EST)

Thanks!

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 00:42, 27 January 2014 (EST)

Wrong Values in Knockbackformula for WDSK

The known Knockbackformula gives many wrong answers when it comes to set knockback (WDK/WDSK or FKV on this page)

{{[(WDSK * 10 * 0.05) + 1] * VictimKBMultB * 1.4 * [200 / (Weight + 100)] + 18} * (KBG * 0.01)} + BKB

"VictimKBMultB - Unknown. Multiplier Mid KB Formula"
"VictimKBMultA or VictimKBMultB haven't been seen as anything besides 1."

For example for Falco's laser (KBG=100; WDSK=101) this would give us: (((((101 * 10 * 0.05) + 1) * 1 * 1.4 * (200 / (87 + 100)) + 18) * (100 * 0.01)) + 0

Knockback=95.11, Hitstun=38 (vs Marth) (The excel spreadsheets give the same answer.)

However, these numbers are obv ridiculously off. The laser's KB is actually barely noticable and it only does 7 hitstun (the formula should give us 8, since hitlag counts as 1). This is really bogging me. I also found many other weak moves with different WDSKs that also seemed to be off by quite a lot (CF's first hit nair etc.).

What's wrong with the calculation? Can anyone solve this mystery? It's actually pretty important to me.

Also when looking at hitboxdata I always wonder, what "Bone" means lol... (?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fox128 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 28 January 2014 (EST)

I'll assume you're talking about Melee. So you're saying that:

Falco's Blaster
against NTSC Marth
is calculated to do 95.11 knockback and so 38.044 frames of hitstun
but actually does 7 frames of hitstun and so should have a knockback closer to 17.5.

Is this what you're saying? If so, I have good news. I was typing out the calculation myself so I could analyze it more closely, and it suddenly occured to me: The knockback growth value gets divided by 100 before it goes into the formula, so what if the fixed knockback value does as well? So I tried that:

(((((p/10+(p*d)/20)*200/(w+100)*1.4)+18)*s)+b)*r
(((((10/10+(10*1.01)/20)*200/(87+100)*1.4)+18)*1.00)+0)*1.0
(((((1+10.1/20)*200/187*1.4)+18)*1.00)+0)*1.0
(((((1.505)*1.069518717*1.4)+18)*1.00)+0)*1.0
((((2.253475936)+18)*1.00)+0)*1.0
(((20.253475936)*1.00)+0)*1.0
20.253475936

That's 20.25 knockback with 8.1 hitstun. Much more reasonable (though rounding the hitstun to 9 is above the 7 you say it is...don't take my word on that one). Toomai Glittershine

The Sharp 23:58, 28 January 2014 (EST)

... ... Yes SSBM. Wow, I couldn't figure it out. A confirmation of this would be nice tho (testing that new formula on other moves) -Why would you round it to 9? Nah 8 is right, melee uses 1+actual hitstun for it's formula. So while the actual hitstun is 7, tho formula should give 8 as a "correct" answer (because hitlag counts as hitstun there, but only as 1 frame).

Btw. I also played around with it a bit, and if VictimKBMultB was 0 for some reason, it would also give the right amount of Hitstun for Falco's laser. So I think we can't know 100% sure yet if it's because it's divided or something else?

And please tell me what "Bone" +the value for it means if you know it :)

EDIT: I have bad news for you. Your formula doesn't work for things like Fox' shine (80WDSK, 100KG)... I tried a tricky method to figure it out. For Fox' shine the original formula seems to work. I did this by finding a different attack with the same knockback-angle (0°) and the answer was Ness' dtilt, then I tried to find a % that should give just as much knockback (with the other normal KB formula): Fox' shine vs Link should have 74.27 KB. Ness' dtilt vs Link should have 74.22 KB at 340%!

--> Since they also share the same angle, these two moves should have almost the same effect on Link under these conditions. -->AND INDEED, THEY DID!

So the formula seems to be alright. I wonder what other factor there could be. This is a mystery. ://

User talk:Toomai/Archive 11: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 01:53, January 29, 2014

Contents

Project M Character Pages (and one other thing)