User talk:1337 B33FC4K3

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1. 1

See this is why people have a problem with you.

Look at this edit summary of yours. How is that anything but actively disrespectful? How could you possibly think that writing that kind of thing is a good idea? Most of your edits are good edits by themselves, but your attitude as you make them is not acceptable. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 12:51, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

This particular user keeps adding the same wrong information (essentially making up buffs). I think it's become enough of a problem that I personally call him out for it.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:56, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

Regardless of the veracity of what someone is saying, I'm sure you should be capable of getting things resolved without resorting to antagonism. Toomai Glittershine The Different 13:00, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

An inquiry

I would like to formally ask what happened in your life that has caused you to act like such a jackass to others. Prior to my previous departure in 2012, I remember you being a rather upstanding individual, who could help out others interested in the competitive Smash techniques, as well as tell others about when their personalities and such were harming their development. Ironically, it seems you have begun acting like those you chastised: Stubborn, obnoxious, constantly pissing and moaning, and frankly no fun to talk to. What exactly happened that caused such a radical personality change?

If you don't want to say what happened, that's fine, but at least try to minimise how often you act like a stubborn and obnoxious jerk who constantly pisses and moans about everything to others.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 13:41, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

It's really petty to blame life for your problems, but I guess the 1 thing that has caused me to lose faith in the userbase here was when I had a falling out with OT and the rest of the users just blindly supported him and paid no heed to my thoughts. Around that time I had finally figured out the inner workings of Smash (and fighting games in general) and what skills it took to be good. I also researched heavily into character design. With regards to my character Marth, I realized he didn't have the tools needed to win consistently in Brawl. I presented my findings to OT and from there countless wars were raised. To this day, I seriously doubt he or anyone else here understands where I'm coming from.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 14:22, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

So basically, you and other users have what is known as a "having different opinions about what is arguably an arbitrary subject", and you decide that the only way to get back at this is to be excessively snippy and rude to everyone else...Gotcha.

I say, doing that is just as petty as blaming your personal life. It just makes you look like a child throwing a temper tantrum in a store because their mum won't buy them an extra bag of sweets. But whatever, it's obvious you have no interest in changing, given that OT is inactive and no one frankly cares to debate this arbitrary subject, so I will leave you be.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 15:05, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

You can be mad at my actions but a character's potential in the game is an objective quality, assuming that the game does not change significantly. Marth cannot be both good and bad.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:44, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

These edit summaries

These seem a little harsh, don't you think? They're on the verge of, if not are, personal attacks, which aren't allowed. Please don't write edit summaries like these. Thank you. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 15:45, 3 November 2014 (EST)

Before you defend him, you should know that this particular user keeps updating the pages I edit with the same false information he has yet to justify. He is likely a poor player so his word of mouth isn't sufficient proof. He needs to give me frame data. I have reverted his edits multiple times and explained why he is wrong each time and he fails to listen. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:03, 3 November 2014 (EST)

For starters, in the first edit summary I gave, all you said was "You're all dumb. Especially you, Epsilon". You did not give a reason there, just a on-the-verge-of-a-personal attack. Second, that's no excuse to say those things in your edit summaries. And third, I will not defend him; he can be reverted, however you should leave that negative commentary out of your edit summaries; if it persists, just leave a message on his talk page (without personal attacks or negative commentary). Rtzxy Reflect!!! 16:14, 3 November 2014 (EST)

I want to point out that the user Epsilon has a pretty long history of constantly adding useless/pointless information to the changes section in character articles, constantly ignoring users, and adding crap to said mainspace articles that obviously isn't encyclopedic. For reference, see his talk page, his contributions, and the histories of certain SSB4 character pages (Peach (SSB4) in particular; Ctrl+F Epsilon and it'll be somewhere down there). While the remarks in these edit summaries aren't necessary, a lot of users are sick of Epsilon's ignorance and I think something should be done about it by now. Scr7(talk · contribs) 16:33, 3 November 2014 (EST)

I get that Epsilon constantly adds unnecessary/useless information to pages. However, my original point of all this is the fact that edit summaries like this are uncalled for and shouldn't be said, as some are on the verge of violating SW:NPA. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 18:18, 3 November 2014 (EST)

I really am perplexed why you find me to be a bigger problem than him. I'm not exactly bullying a saint here. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 18:21, 3 November 2014 (EST)

"I really am perplexed why you find me to be a bigger problem than him."

I never said that, nor I think that. Yes, Epsilon is becoming a problem here, but what I'm saying is that you should handle his edits a little less harsher than summaries like this. Simple explain to him (without negative feedback) at what he did wrong, and remember to assume good faith. Simple as that, no need for negative commentary like this. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 18:27, 3 November 2014 (EST)

Given his continued ignorance of my reasons for reverts, I have little reason to be patient with him. Since he didn't listen to my reasoning the first 10 times, I will assume he will not listen the next 10 times. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 20:40, 3 November 2014 (EST)

True, but that's no excuse to resort to on-the-verge-of-if-not-are-personal attacks, or personal attacks in general. No matter how much Epsilon screws up, you shouldn't do stuff like this. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 21:20, 3 November 2014 (EST)

You're not really seeing things the way I see them. You are treating Epsilon like a saint. Epsilon does not have the right to my patience. His actions are just as if not more inexcusable than mine. Brian^{Don't try me!} 23:17, 3 November 2014 (EST)

He may not have the right to your patience, but that doesn't mean you start personally attacking him. Also, I'm not treating him as a "saint"; in fact, I believe that he is becoming a problem and that something needs to be done. However, it's your edit summaries that are a little extreme. What I've been saying is that you should be less harsh with your edit summaries, no matter what Epsilon or some other troll/vandal does. You still can't start personally attacking other users, even to vandals/trolls, no matter what they do. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 23:33, 3 November 2014 (EST)

You're not getting the point. I think we know that Epsilon is a problem; we're not arguing on that. You're not a bigger problem than him, but because of what I've seen, we know these edit summaries are a problem, which is what we're arguing about. Your edit summaries were way too harsh; it doesn't matter how long you've been dealing with him, "Oh god, could you be any dumber Epsilon" is basically calling him mentally retarded, and is still a personal attack. Just treat him like Brandondorf.

Oh, and, you got a fact wrong in your second edit summary - Brawl physics allow heavier characters to survive the charged up smash up to about 80% in Brawl. Qwerty (talk) 23:32, 3 November 2014 (EST)

If he's becoming a problem, why don't you stop wasting your time dealing with me and talk to him, Rtzxy? You'd solve both this problem and his delusional edits. Also Qwerty, why are you treating him as if he's a respectable and intelligent editor? He is neither, given that he keeps adding the same erroneous edits and can't seem to understand my reasons for reverts. I wonder if he even reads them. Also Qwerty you are wrong about the up smash fact. Falling speed, not weight, is the primary component in determining how well you survive vertical hits. Remember everyone is floaty in Brawl. The only character who could possibly survive a fully charged up smash at 80% would be Dedede and it would have to be on a stage with a really high ceiling like Yoshi's Island. Brian^{Don't try me!} 00:19, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Eh the up smash thing is false, my bad. But we're not talking about what Epsilon is doing here. He's a problem, his edits are disruptive, but that's not the problem. You can deal with him on your own time. This section is talking about the problems in the way you're acting, which is a different matter. If he doesn't listen to your reverts, keep reverting his edits until he gets them, and leave a message on his talk page if it gets necessary. The edits he's made don't change the definition of a personal attack, which you've just done. We're trying to get across to you that you need to tone down on your edit summaries, especially towards other users.

I think the only other thing I can reiterate here is what I said last post. Go review that :D. Qwerty (talk) 01:18, 4 November 2014 (EST)

That is not the way to go. The problem here is that Epsilon is ignoring, perhaps deliberately at this point, all the evidence and warnings provided to him. We can't keep reverting his edits because he just won't listen. I don't think that what Brian said (and tends to say in general) was appropriate. However, I do agree that we need to be harsher on Epsilon. He's barely bordering the line between good faith and ignorance, and action needs to be taken to make it known that he needs to improve. --Timson622222 (talk) 02:09, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Simply put, Brian: you can be harsh to Epsilon, just don't add personal attacks in your comments. Rtzxy Reflect!!! 14:57, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Notice

I suggest that you should read SW:NPA, because what I saw in you edit summary, is you calling someone a dumbass. So let me be clear: STOP ADDING PERSONAL ATTACKS IN EDIT SUMMERIES WHILE UNDOING AN EDIT BY A USER you can be harsh, but don't add personal attacks to it. Thank you Smashworker101 (talk) 18:01, 18 January 2015 (EST)

I'm not siding with the IP that wrongly edited the Falco (SSB4) or anything but can't you see from above that you've been called out numerous times for disrespectful edit summaries? Your undo edits are rightful but can your attitude be less of an ass about it? Dots (talk) The GameCube 19:18, 18 January 2015 (EST)

Quite frankly, I'm tired of people being dumb.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 18:02, 19 January 2015 (EST)

"Your undo edits are rightful but can your attitude be less of an ass about it?"

You shouldn't be calling someone an ass either. Awesome Cardinal 2000 20:59, 19 January 2015 (EST)

So by expressing that this wiki's users are dumb, you unnecessarily call them out in an harsh, offensive way if they make an incompetent edit. I see. I guess you don't mind your peers seeing you as a jerk who rudely attacks those who does you wrong for your revenge. Would you like to be treated this way and have people disrespect you just because you don't respect them back? I have no right to change your attitude but its something to consider. Dots (talk) The Zerg Rush 18:23, 19 January 2015 (EST)

Not my fault people don't listen to the facts I present.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 19:42, 19 January 2015 (EST)

OK, 1. Not every user has seen your "facts". 2. A lot of what you say is opinionated and there have been times where you've been wrong. And 3. when you're mean to IPs and users it makes them gravitate away from the wiki and makes the wiki seem less "open". I admit there are many cases where you're correct, but when you act like a dick about it, it harms the wiki as a whole. Laikue (talk | contribs) 19:47, 19 January 2015 (EST)

Dude, character viability is not an opinion; a character cannot both be bad and good at the same time. And barring a few frame data mistakes, when's the last time I've been wrong about Marth, Falco, or anything related to high level play?--Brian^{Don't try me!} 19:53, 19 January 2015 (EST)

You know, we respect your knowledge and we don't see a problem with it (When it comes to your arguments vs. OT's, I personally side with you now), but your hurtful douchebag attitude is the problem. Dots (talk) The Medic 20:09, 19 January 2015 (EST)

I think Brian is right because he is surrounded by a bunch of idiots who clearly don't know what they're doing. Why bother introducing them to Smash if they weren't going to man up to begin with? In this situation, we can liken Brian to an anteater that is being surrounded by the equivalency of a few ants attempting to take down an anteater; this anteater is a beacon of knowledge, blazing across a black sea of ignorance.

As you can see, it is up to Brian to be the hero that Smash Wiki deserves, but not the want that is wanted. 108.194.146.62 22:31, 26 January 2015 (EST)

Yes, that is very true. Brian is the one who shall win the Goy wars for us in order to stop the evil Elsas. He is the chosen one to bring balance to the Smash community and destroy the Elsa leader Ninten in 20XX. Yes, prophecy says that Brian is the hero of all of Smash. Dots (talk) The Scout 22:42, 26 January 2015 (EST)

How mature of all of you.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 00:11, 27 January 2015 (EST)

lol--Starman125 (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2015 (EST)

Calling me hypocritical? Who's the 1 who actually backs up what they say? You've got nerve if you think you can call me out on that.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 01:24, 27 January 2015 (EST)

I do believe that your overreaction was quite unnecessary, given the context and circumstances presented here. Staying on a horse that is taller than the average standard might prove to be the superior course of action in this situation, and I recommend that you do so instead of believing that every single comment made here is done to provoke and ridicule you. "Come at me bruh" is neither a reasonable nor valid attitude to maintain at this time. 108.194.146.62 03:09, 27 January 2015 (EST)

If I may...

Looking at the links provided on this page, and looking through the history of here, I did notice a bit of...overreacting. And all but one of your edits seem to target one specific user. You ever heard the saying, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? I think that would definitely fit here. And even so, I don't think any of them were necessary. You should probably think of what you're wanting to say is necessary. Aidan the Aura Master 09:51, 27 January 2015 (EST)

I don't really tolerate with stubborn idiots and jerks who think they are superior to those they think are weaklings, and I don't receive them too well and I'm pretty sure others don't like it either despite this being the Internet. They don't show any respect to me or others and that's the sad thing. Do they receive respect back? If only because of their attitude to everyone else. What I and a lot of other users are trying to point out to Brian is that his reactions to undoing an edit is rather, hostile, in his edit summaries. I like how he's warning users about wrongful edits but he does this with a straight out jerk about it to an extent of personally attacking someone. Dots (talk) The Coffee Maker 10:28, 27 January 2015 (EST)

Seeing your recent history here, and knowing you in general, all I can say is this, and I will take action if you keep it up. And to Toomai and Miles, users shouldn't be having to contact an inactive admin outside the wiki to get a problem user dealt with, step your user handling up, especially when I see Toomai that you told Brian to stop three months ago, and have not followed through with not even another warning when he kept it up and other users are making a fuss here about it.

Also Brian, I seriously laughed when I read the previous section with Crow, and seeing you're blaming me for your attitude problems and are holding a grudge over some trivial shit. Omega Tyrant 21:07, 29 January 2015 (EST)

I don't hold a grudge against you, though I still believe you are still very much uninformed about the topics we debated about. That's beside the point though. I simply told Crow our countless debates have biased the majority of the user base into thinking my opinions are unfounded. I find that incredibly hypocritical since I'm one of the few users here who go to great lengths to find information from objective sources. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 00:38, 30 January 2015 (EST)

"though I still believe you are still very much uninformed about the topics we debated about"

"I find that incredibly hypocritical since I'm one of the few users here who go to great lengths to find information from objective sources."

That's precious, coming from the guy adamant to the end that Brawl Marth's grab sucked just because it wasn't stupidly OP like Melee Marth's grab, even though it ranked in the top 5 grabs in the game by actual objective measures. Omega Tyrant 18:39, 31 January 2015 (EST)

You don't understand shit if you think Melee Marth's grab is OP. You're the 1 that fucked up if you got grabbed buddy.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 02:21, 1 February 2015 (EST)

Fine perhaps I should explain to the uninformed why Marth is fine having a long grab range. Simply put, it fits his design of having a neutral game where he has to stay safe and maintain his distance from someone. Marth's goal in neutral is to move forward but without the intent of getting a first hit. Marth cannot be the first to commit in neutral. This is because his moves, while are fast startup wise, have very very punishable endlag, have really short duration, do not cover a constant area of space (because the hitboxes move in arcs), and are crouch cancel-able if Marth is close to his opponents. Thus Marth's goal is to get hits not by committing first, but by punishing commitments, which he pressures opponents into doing by moving forward. This includes the way he gets grabs; the most common way you see Marths get grabs is baiting whiffs with dash dances and grabbing the whiffed attack from afar. Having a normal grab range means that he would have to actually go for raw grabs out neutral, aka hard reading when someone is going to shield, roll or spot dodge and then committing to the grab. That violates the aforementioned playstyle Marth is designed to do.

Additionally another 1 of Marth's weaknesses in neutral is that most of his moves are vulnerable to crouch canceling + ASDI Down. If Marth is close to someone, almost every single one of his moves can be punished by crouch cancelling it, ASDI'ing down, or optimally both. Using either prevents the opponent from moving far when Marth hits them and allows them to punish the endlag of the moves. There are only 4 moves that are not vulnerable to those options at any percent: tipper hitbox of forward smash, tipper hitbox of down air, tipper hitbox of down tilt, and grab. The first 2 are way too risky and situational to throw out in neutral, effectively leaving Marth with only 2 reliable ways to deal with crouch cancel + ASDI down. Yes, the long reach is necessary. It covers the spacings where Marth's down tilt wouldn't be able punish crouch canceling. At these spacings, the opponent can just run up to the place where the farthest nontipper hitbox of d tilt hits and choose to crouch or shield. Without the long grab range Marth cannot punish this. And yes, this is fair because it's a mixup. If your opponent expects you to think they will try to avoid the tipper down tilt and run the spacing I describe above, they can simply run to the place where tipper down tilt would hit instead. Marth's grab will miss at this spacing and you are free to punish the whiff. Do you see the Yomi? Having a shorter grab range would completely nullify this mixup and leave Marth with effectively only 1 reliable move in neutral. Having only 1 good move in neutral means you have a bad neutral because your opponent can just avoid the spacings where that 1 move will work. That's why characters are given mixups. I shouldn't have to explain this to a player of your skill, really.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 03:13, 1 February 2015 (EST)

Apparently, Marth's grab range in Melee was larger than Yoshi's grab range. Any character that didn't have a tether grab probably would have benefited from having a grab with that range to begin with. LimitCrown (talk) 14:24, 1 February 2015 (EST)

Yoshi's grab isn't a tether grab dude. It's actually not that much shorter; the difference is about 1 unit. And the only reason Marth got that grab in the gif was because Yoshi has a really large hurtbox on his nose. Put Fox in Yoshi's place and Marth would not have gotten the grab.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:18, 1 February 2015 (EST)

this

you realize that you can't force people to not edit this page without your permission, right? Smashworker101 (talk) 11:32, 7 February 2015 (EST)

This user has a penchant for adding erroneous information. I'm suggesting he talk to me first before making more errors.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:12, 7 February 2015 (EST)

What kind of errors? Untrue buffs, nerfs, and\or changes? Smashworker101 (talk) 12:19, 7 February 2015 (EST)

All of the above. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:20, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Although it could be false, but it could be proven true in some circumstances unless if there was proof. Smashworker101 (talk) 12:24, 7 February 2015 (EST)

He doesn't give proof. I on the other hand always present facts to back up my claims. I can give you essays on why Marth is a terrible character in Smash 4 if you so wish.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:34, 7 February 2015 (EST)

First of all:

1. I don't care about your opinion about Marth.

2. It's obvious that he doesn't give proof, what I'm actually saying is that you can't force people to not edit the Marth (SSB4) page without your permission. It's unnecessary even if they make errors, untrue facts, vandalism, invisible texts, facts in another language, etc. it will all get reverted. Smashworker101 (talk) 12:48, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Think about it this way. If I get him to discuss changes with me, it reduces the janitor work needed on the wiki. Reverts demonstrate an uninformed userbase and thus should be minimized. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 12:52, 7 February 2015 (EST)

You know, not every person that will do a wrong edit has to not touch the Marth page. They don't know why its wrong until they have their edit reverted. Can you give them a reason for reverting? Dots (talk) The Falcon 12:56, 7 February 2015 (EST)

An actual reason you mean Dots from Earthbound. Smashworker101 (talk) 13:02, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Well, at least something to tell him that he does not control all the Marth pages lol. Dots (talk) The Cannon 13:38, 7 February 2015 (EST)

I'll concede defeat if any of you guys can prove me wrong about Marth. But really only Kadano could do that. Good luck. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:49, 7 February 2015 (EST)

So only you and maybe Kadano are allowed to touch the Marth (SSB4) and Falco (SSB4) pages eh? But ain't these pages belong to a wiki where anybody can edit? And dude, for the last time since when did we ever say that you are wrong about Marth? Dots (talk) The Team Fortress 2 17:03, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Those pages belong to the wiki and everyone has the right to edit those pages not just you. Smashworker101 (talk) 17:32, 7 February 2015 (EST)

Praise the Wiki's Savior

It is said that there was a player who had lost with Marth for twelve games in a row, and though he had spent all his living on coaching, he could not be taught to play Melee by anyone. He came up behind Brian and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately his knowledge of the game increased tenfold. And Brian said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Falco said, “Calm yourself Einstein, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” But Brian said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that knowledge has gone out from me.” And when the player saw that he was not hidden, he came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why he had touched him, and how he had immediately improved at Melee. And Brian said to him, “Son, your faith has made you not a noob; go in peace.”

Brian 8:43-48

108.194.146.62 19:58, 10 February 2015 (EST)

I can already tell that your not Conny because I posted on your talk page on where you live. Stop trolling people. Dots (talk) The Ball 20:03, 10 February 2015 (EST)

A well-meaning observant’s opinion on your recent behavior

Hi Brian, I believe to be a person that you have a certain level of respect for, as I have contributed quite a lot and in rather influencial ways, especially considering Melee-Marth. I can understand why you acted the way you recently did; I myself have often witnessed players with very limited knowledge expressing their opinion of the game as if it was a fact, which really is something that very few people can truly claim, and I do not consider myself as one of them, just somewhat close. Magus420 is the only one that I personally think is up to this level. (And HAL developers, on the off chance they are involved in the online Melee community.)

With that being said, my personal policy when dealing with such “ignorant” users is to treat them with respect by default, but ignore them as soon as interaction with them becomes nothing but a waste of time. Additionally, I personally have no interest in Smash 4, for I am a fan of Melee, not the Smash series in general, and I have found Smash 4 to contain none of the things I cherish in Melee. I do agree that during the total half hour I have played Smash 4, Marth felt like a really lackluster character, but in the end I am neither an expert on Smash 4 nor qualified to make claims about its tier list due to my dislike for the game itself, clouding my judgment on it.

If I may be so bold to give you a piece of personal advice, I recommend that you refrain from contributing Smash 4 knowledge. It seems your opinion of the game is similar to mine, and in the end working on subjects that one dislikes cannot end well (at least that is what I believe). I think we agree that we find Smash 4 to be a competitively bad game, at least when compared to Melee, so it is only appropriate for its articles to be of equally bad / inaccurate quality. By focusing on Melee articles in a respectful manner, the perception other people have of you improves, and so does the Melee community’s reputation—its community is obviously working hard to offer newcomers a large amount of concise, precise information. On the other hand, by indulging in somewhat hateful Smash 4 edits, you invoke the image of jealousy in readers’ minds, which leads to outcomes that you likely don’t actually want to see.

None of this is meant in a condescending way; this might as well be a piece of advice I’m sending back in time to myself six years ago. My only intention is to increase the standard of knowledge and level of interaction available for Melee, and I believe choosing to act in a way that is not accusing other people of their shortcomings and perhaps rash contributions that do more hard than good is a course of action you will advocate if reconsidering it and maybe view it with a bit of more distance. Kadano talk 20:58, 17 February 2015 (EST)

Bottom 5 characters in Smash 4?

Smash 4 has a lot of balance. It's hard to discern the top 5 (outside Sheik and Diddy) and the bottom 5 (outside of Mii Swordfighter and Lucina), but since you've done some testing (evidenced by your knowledge on SDI), I'm curious about who you think are the top 5 worst characters in the game, and for what reasons. Blue Ninjakoopa 16:45, 19 February 2015 (EST)

Ask Mew2king not me. Diddy and Sheik are miles above the rest of the cast and Marth is pure trash now. That's all you really need to know if you want to win in this game.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 17:57, 19 February 2015 (EST)

It is a fact that Marth and Lucina ranks somewhere at 45-51 or so. :P Dots (talk) The Windows 19:12, 19 February 2015 (EST)

@Brian - Lol. Mew2king thinks Mario is top 5, when he's at best only ~top 20. I don't trust his judgement because he doesn't invest anything into the game competitively, hence just using Diddy. He has too much influence on the Smash 4 community, if he told them that Bowser is top tier everyone would follow that idea in lockstep and anyone challenging it would scolded on sight.

And Dots, Marth is significantly better than Lucina because of how her sword functions (strongest hit always connects, so her moves are extremely easy to punish out of shield). Marth is the worst he's ever been but is still assumed to be mid-tier, because everyone else in the game is weak, too, except Diddy Kong and Sheik (who isn't strong but has the best frame data). Blue Ninjakoopa 19:40, 19 February 2015 (EST)

BNK, hence that its a joke that Brian disliked Marth ever since Brawl released for nerfing him. But I do actually agree that he shouldn't rank that low like I said, maybe he's somewhere around 20-32 while Lucina is like around 28-36. I personally agree with Diddy Kong being the best despite my older brother disagreeing with me (but far from being said "broken" like many people think) but if not that, its guaranteed that Diddy Kong and Sheik are both Top 3. Dots (talk) The Missingno. 20:56, 19 February 2015 (EST)