Talk:Tripping

Slipping

Tripping was given an official name stealthily as part of the Luigi update- it was called "Slipping" Webrunner 13:33, February 19, 2008 (EST)

no, slipping probably means less traction. tripping =/= slipping. FyreNWater - (Talk • Contributions ) 23:09, February 19, 2008 (EST)

The context on the Dojo suggests that slipping is an event.. "Increased likelihood of slipping" - not "Decreased traction" - it wouldn't say "Increased likelihood" if it wasn't a thing that happens. If it was just a traction thing, then it wouldn't be a 'likely' thing... and it was also tested on smashboards that on slippery surfaces the chance to trip is tripled. Webrunner 17:49, February 23, 2008 (EST)

The data page in the game itself has a statistic that is related to this, if you look around a bit. It refers to this as a "pratfall" for reasons which are obvious in retrospect. Brief testing on my part -- namely, rapidly dashing back and forth on The Summit -- showed that it did in fact respond to tripping, suggesting that "slipping" refers to sliding around on slippery surfaces while a "pratfall" refers to a trip. I didn't test it with bannana peels, but I suspect it's related.TempestStormwind 22:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't Forget 'Suddenly Dashing Forward at a standing potition' because this makes me fall quite a bit. Learner3 21:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I am quite sure that percentage does not relate to prat falling, I will dig up the stuff on it later. SmashingJohn (talk) 01:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"Interestingly, the sound effect for tripping (when not induced by an opponent or item) changes depending on whether the character tripping is from a cartoon-ish or realistic universe: the realistic characters make unimpressive falling-down noises, while cartoon-ish characters (that is, most of the cast) make a distinctive timpani noise."

I would like to see a list of each character's sound effect, by category. Zixor (talk) 16:24, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Why? And if you want it that badly, why don't you do it yourself? That has consistently been the pattern of your edits; just silly requests on arbitrary articles' talk pages. You want to see a list of each character's sound effects, by category, then congratulations. I don't care what you want. Semicolon (talk) 17:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Lucas' Neutral/up taunt

Why do people assume that just because Lucas' up taunt is a FORCED pratfall, it means that it's not an actual pratfall because it's forced?! A pratfall is tripping that leaves you in a position where you're prone to attacks! Therefore, Lucas' forced trip taunt is STILL A PRATFALL! --BlackMario^{We like Ike!}_{Talk to me.} 21:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not a pratfall because it's a taunt. Blue Ninjakoopa 21:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Going off of what BNK said, any taunt leaves you in a prone position. Prattfalling is caused by tapping the control stick. ClonedPickle 21:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Much as I hate to admit it, BNK is right. The taunt overrides pratfall status. And you don't get invincibility frames from a taunt. Case closed. - Gargomon251 (talk) 22:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

He might be right, but the reasoning here is wrong. Just because it is a taunt doesn't mean it isn't also a pratfall. Just because element A fits into set B doesn't mean that it can't fit into set C so long as it isn't proven that B intersect C is {}. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 00:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I repeat: It's not a pratfall because it's a taunt. (And I'm terrible at math or whatever that was) >_> Blue Ninjakoopa 02:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

And I repeat that set theory clearly states that simply proving element A is a member of set B does not prove that it is not a member of C. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I still think that Lucas' taunt should not be mentioned in the article as a pratfall. Aside from being a taunt, Lucas has no invincibility frames when getting up, and performs no attack whatsoever. Blue Ninjakoopa 04:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

There we go. That is perfect reasoning. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 05:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

How did you do that? o.O Blue Ninjakoopa 05:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Do what? Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 05:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Make me give better reasoning lol. Blue Ninjakoopa 10:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

"Game treats them differently than if the character was lying down"

I found that one can grab and throw a character who has tripped. You know that, right? It wasn't mentioned in the main article. You can't do that to one who's lying completely down on the ground, ok. Now in SSB 64, you could, but only up until the point they bounded off the floor. Lili Rochefort 1965 (talk) 15:24, 17 December 2010 (EST)

Move to "tripping"

While "prat falling" is the official term, and it was introduced at about the same time as the term "tripping", the term "tripping" is far and away the more common term on both SmashBoards and this wiki. Because of this I don't see a need to label the article as "prat falling" when few other pages of the wiki mention the term (just like "tech" versus "ukemi"). Toomai Glittershine The Bold 15:16, 7 July 2011 (EDT)

Agreed, since that term is more common. – Smiddle_T 16:14, 7 July 2011 (EDT)hi

While more basic, tripping is the much more common term used among the Smash community, so I support the move. Omega Tyrant 02:35, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

Not really necessary, the redirect from "Tripping" is already in place, and the official term IS "Prat Falling". Unless anyone has a good reason why this is important, i am against. Pokémonultimate 19:43, 5 December 2011 (EST)

SmashWiki is not official

Being the official term doesn't automatically make it the best name for the article. Omega Tyrant 20:14, 5 December 2011 (EST)

Agree With OT and Toomai here. Very few people (even casual players) refer to it as "Prat Falling". Mr. Anontalk 20:18, 5 December 2011 (EST)

Highly Oppose The technique is called Prat Falling. That is the real name. Tripping was just made up by Smashers bacause they didn't yet know the term Prat Falling. I am fully aware of SW:OFFICIAL, but I have never agreed with it. I think the Pokémon Gible sounds better pronounced as "Gee-ble", but the anime says "Gibble", so I say that too. Because it is official. Just as I use the word Ukemi as opposed to Tech. So I say this should definitely stay as Prat Falling. Toast ltimatum 06:10, 6 December 2011 (EST)

Absolute refusal to use a term that isn't "official" makes your oppose weak. Tell us why Prat falling is the better/more used/more well known name. Don't tell us it should be used because it's "official". And you are not correct about smashers using it because "they didn't know the term prat falling". Like with tech, tripping is a more natural and intuitive name, which is why it's the name used by nearly everyone as opposed to prat falling. Omega Tyrant 17:45, 6 December 2011 (EST)

My refusal to use anything other than official terms is indeed a personal thing, but this is a poll asking for people's opinions, and that's what I have to contribute. I also believe that if official terms are used, it is more informative. Someone who has never heard the term Ukemi before could search for Tech, and be redirected to Ukemi, and instantly learn the true name. Sure, the official name is in the article, but if someone was just skimming through the page to learn how to perform the technique, they might not notice. We opposed the idea of a fanon namespace on this Wiki, so why have a fanon name? Toast ltimatum 05:12, 7 December 2011 (EST)

My refusal to use anything other than official terms is indeed a personal thing

So you admit to bias here, thus weakening your oppose.

I also believe that if official terms are used, it is more informative.

What exactly makes prat falling "more informative" than tripping? Being the official term does not make it "more informative". When someone falls, do you say they had "prat fall" or "tripped"? About everyone is going to say the latter.

Someone who has never heard the term Ukemi before could search for Tech, and be redirected to Ukemi, and instantly learn the true name.

This is relevant how? And your definition of "true name" has no value here.

Sure, the official name is in the article, but if someone was just skimming through the page to learn how to perform the technique, they might not notice.

Someone not noticing the official term is not our problem, and your hypothetical user surely doesn't care in your scenario what the official term is.

We opposed the idea of a fanon namespace on this Wiki, so why have a fanon name?

Fanon is fan made material (such as machinamas, flash games, and fan fiction). A term used by the community for something ingame is not fanon. Omega Tyrant 06:16, 7 December 2011 (EST)

So you admit to bias here, thus weakening your oppose.

Think of it not as bias, but opinion. Opinions are perfectly viable in an argument, so I have a right to give it. My opinion on the UK Conservative Government is that they are an overall handicap on the country, so I can place an official vote for a different party. (Well, I can't, because I'm only 15, but you get the idea.) My opinion is that official names should be used where possible, so I can use that in my vote.

Being the official term does not make it "more informative".

Definition of "informative" - "Providing information; especially, providing useful or interesting information." Prat Falling being the official name is a fact, and therefore information/is informative.

When someone falls, do you say they had "prat fall" or "tripped"? About everyone is going to say the latter.

Hence the presence of a redirect.

Your definition of "true name" has no value here.

Wikis are designed to provide facts and information on a specific topic. The "true name", that being Prat Fall, has value on this basis, as it is a fact. Tripping is an oft-used name, so it deserves a mention. But it should not headline the article, as Truth and Fact > Communative and Popular. Toast ltimatum 09:36, 7 December 2011 (EST)

Think of it not as bias, but opinion. Opinions are perfectly viable in an argument, so I have a right to give it. My opinion on the UK Conservative Government is that they are an overall handicap on the country, so I can place an official vote for a different party. (Well, I can't, because I'm only 15, but you get the idea.) My opinion is that official names should be used where possible, so I can use that in my vote.

Opinion or not, with your obvious strong anti-non official bias, your oppose has less value, just like how the opinion on Ganondorf's tier position of a casual Ganon mainer, who never touched another character and fervently believes Ganondorf is da bess, has less value in a tier list discussion.

Definition of "informative" - "Providing information; especially, providing useful or interesting information." Prat Falling being the official name is a fact, and therefore information/is informative.

I don't find the official term to be useful/interesting information. And having the official term as the title does not provide any more information than a mention of it in the article provides.

Hence the presence of a redirect.

Hence that a redirect can be used for the official term for you people who blindly oppose using non official terms.

Wikis are designed to provide facts and information on a specific topic. The "true name", that being Prat Fall, has value on this basis, as it is a fact. Tripping is an oft-used name, so it deserves a mention. But it should not headline the article, as Truth and Fact > Communative and Popular.

As I told you before, your definition of "true name" has no value here. To me, and nearly every other player, the term prat falling is no more "true" than tripping for the act of a character falling over. They're both correct terms to use, ergo, they're both "true names".

Again, since you seem to ignore it, with SmashWiki is not official, you have to use a different argument than prat falling being the official term if you so strongly want this page's title to remain that. When it comes to things like this, this Wiki uses the most commonly used name, which is why we use tech instead of ukemi, forward tilt instead of side strong attack, and forward smash instead of side smash attack. An argument about how prat falling is the official term, and how you absolutely refuse to use a term that isn't official, is not valid here. Omega Tyrant 12:23, 7 December 2011 (EST)

Well, neither of us are going to be changing our minds, no matter what argument is given either way. You can put SW:OFFICIAL in front of me, but I'll never agree with it. Likewise, I can explain why using the official name is more educative, but you'll never agree. So let's just leave it to the vote count. BTW, that definiton of informative came from Wiktionary, so I wouldn't oppose it. Toast ltimatum 14:07, 7 December 2011 (EST)

Am I arguing with the definition of informative? I'm telling you that having prat falling as the title is no more informative than having tripping is. Also see Toomai's post. And the reason why I'm throwing SW:Official in front of you is because as of now, it completely invalidates your oppose (and any other oppose based solely on prat falling being the official term), no matter how much you disagree with it. Omega Tyrant 05:36, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Sorry, but I definitely agree with Toast. If people searched for tripping, then got re-directed to Prat Falling, they would be learning the official term, surely that is a good thing? Why teach people the wrong term? Highly Oppose Sonicsidekick95 09:45, 8 December 2011 (EST)

The official name would still be in the first sentence of the article, so it's not like moving the page to "tripping" would suddenly make the term "prat falling" invisible. And if educating new people is the idea, then wouldn't it be better to teach them the name that 95%+ of the community uses? Toomai Glittershine The Superlative 23:38, 8 December 2011 (EST)

Having the term Prat Falling in the same esque as Ukemi isn't too noticable, and if someone was skimming through the page, say to learn the occurance criteria, they could miss the information.

And if educating new people is the idea, then wouldn't it be better to teach them the name that 95%+ of the community uses?

If they'd never heard the term Tripping before, they'd struggle to get here in the first place. Learning the name Tripping is not trivial, whereas Prat Falling is, because it's a nugget of official information which people may not have known before. Toast ltimatum 07:54, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Toast, just bealcause you do not agree with the policy does not change the fact that it is a policy. Mr. Anontalk 17:03, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Having the term Prat Falling in the same esque as Ukemi isn't too noticable, and if someone was skimming through the page, say to learn the occurance criteria, they could miss the information.

As I told you before Toast, them missing what the official term is is not our problem, and in that case, the user doesn't care about the official term anyway. And it's not like them missing what the official term is is going to deprive them of vital information about Smash.

If they'd never heard the term Tripping before, they'd struggle to get here in the first place. Learning the name Tripping is not trivial, whereas Prat Falling is, because it's a nugget of official information which people may not have known before.

That first sentence is just silly, as we pointed out before, tripping is the much wider used and intuitive term, and can be applied moreso to prat falling than tripping. And again, them not knowing the term prat falling is not going to deprive them of vital/useful information. Plus, as we told you before, prat falling will still be mentioned on the page as being the official term. It does not need to be the title for users to get this information you seem to think is so damn important.

Now Toast, this is the last time I'm telling you. Come up with an argument that does not involve prat falling being the official term, or stop posting here. It being the official term has zero weight here, and if you don't stop going on about it, I'll completely ignore you and only respond with a link to SmashWiki is not official. Omega Tyrant 09:17, 10 December 2011 (EST)

A line from SW:OFFICIAL - SmashWiki is a branch of NIWA and as such, is held accountable only to the standards and practices set by NIWA, as well as any additional standards and practices agreed upon by the users. That is all I have to say. Once one side gains enough support, go with it. But as things stand, not enough users agree, because the ratio is 5:3, so therefore, nothing can be done right now. Toast ltimatum 09:27, 10 December 2011 (EST)

And you conveniently ignore the rest. You know what the "standards and practices agreed upon by the users" on this Wiki is? That being the official term is meaningless in deciding the page title if there's another much wider used term among the community, hence the creation and passing of that policy. Read the whole policy, and don't strawman it like that to make it seem it supports you.

But as things stand, not enough users agree, because the ratio is 5:3, so therefore, nothing can be done right now.

You do realise discussions like these are not a straight vote count? And with all three opposes relying on the terribad argument of prat falling being the official term, which is completely invalidated by SW:OFFICIAL, this is going to be moved to tripping unless you guys can come up with a legitimate argument on how prat falling is more used and notable throughout the community (not to mention 5 to 3 in a straight vote count that completely ignores what the users posted would be enough to move this page anyway). Omega Tyrant 09:38, 10 December 2011 (EST)

Fine, I'll get more obscure with my reasoning. One example could be that SSB4 might have more emphasis on prat falling. Any of the following could happen;

1. An instructional video might say "be careful not to change direction too sharply, or you might prat fall!"
2. A trophy could mention it, e.g "Luigi has a slightly higher chance of prat falling than all of the other characters"
3. Tripping could become the name of an attack. Say if Giygas was a boss, he could have an attack called "tripping"
4. The DOJO could have more usage of the word.
5. A difference could be clarified. For example, something like the DOJO or a trophy could say "But Lucas isn't under the conditions of prat falling with this taunt, he's just tripping over"

Toast ltimatum 10:21, 10 December 2011 (EST)

We're supposed to keep the title here based entirely on speculation of what is to come in Smash 4? And we're somehow unable to move the page back here in the future in the case prat falling usurps tripping as the common term?

You'll need a different argument. Omega Tyrant 10:36, 10 December 2011 (EST)

Rather than counter-arguing against the same two points further, I'd like to see another significant reason supportive of the move, because frankly, SW:OFFICIAL, nor a name being more well-known is changing my mind. And even if your points outweigh mine, I can still choose to oppose, just as things work in politics. A party can give a very impressive pitch, but still not get votes, i.e. the UK Liberal Democrats. Even though I'm highly unliable to personally change my mind (the only thing that would do so for definite would be Tripping becoming the official name in SSB4), I'd still like to hear some more perspectives. Toast ltimatum 12:00, 10 December 2011 (EST)

And as I told you, an oppose based entirely on prat falling being the official term, such as yours, will be ignored. Omega Tyrant 14:29, 10 December 2011 (EST)

Once again, Toast, SW:OFFICIAL is SmashWiki policy. I don't care whether you disagree with it; if you do, put up a proposal on its talk page. not here. Mr. Anontalk 14:43, 10 December 2011 (EST)

(Reset Indent)Support: I agree with the other "approvals". --The Hornet 19:06, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Tripping controversy

As in the edit summary, show some actual people that like it, not the editors saying they like it.

Also Toomai, it can't be "skill balancing" when it affects weaker players just as much as stronger players. Omega Tyrant 22:09, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

I'll also point out that the definition of universal is "Common to all members of a group or class". When the amount of people who dislike is easily at least 10 to 1 (and I'm willing to bet it's more, as I've never came across anyone who likes tripping), universal is definitely the appropriate term, not "many". Omega Tyrant 22:14, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

If the wording's that important, then use "vast majority", because I'm pretty sure the average person will read "universal" as "absolutely everyone" - and if we're going to be pedantic, someone must have liked it for it to pass developer mustard, and with over 10 million sales it's basically statistically certain that many random casuals we'll never hear of think it's hilarious.

And okay maybe my term of "skill-balancing" was a bit misused. I meant something like "It provides players of less skill an opportunity to defeat, or at least come close to, those of more skill". In casual circles close games are generally more fun than steamrolls and tripping has the opportunity to result in that (yes it can work backwards, but the point is it makes skill slightly less important). Toomai Glittershine The Interspacial 22:23, 27 September 2012 (EDT)

I've thought of a compromise; use "universal" when referring to competitive players (we can all agree no one who plays competitively approves of tripping), and then we can stick to "many" when referring to casuals.

As for the over 10 million sales, as disliked as tripping is, it's still a very minor part of the game that alone cannot change sales (and we can be certain the majority of people who bought the game weren't aware of tripping beforehand, so it's not like it could realistically affect sales anyway).

As for giving lesser skilled players an opportunity to win, items achieve that a lot better, and are completely optional to have on :p Omega Tyrant 04:42, 29 September 2012 (EDT)

I still disagree with some of your arguments (e.g. I wasn't implying that tripping was affecting sales) but will accept the compromise instead of continuing to argue. Toomai Glittershine The Indescribable 10:16, 29 September 2012 (EDT)

Tripping attacks

I think the following attacks might have a chance of tripping

• Wolf's down tilt
• Falco's late-hitting down aerial on a grounded opponent

Dunno the chance percentages though. Scr7(talk · contribs) 09:56, 2 November 2013 (EDT)

Checking and adding. Toomai Glittershine The Incomperable 10:31, 2 November 2013 (EDT)

I think I've found another attack that trips. --Ganondorf's reverse up-air weak hitbox. --I could also not get his down tilt to trip after numerous tries as it seems to bring the opponent off the ground. I think this might be a mistake.

It isn't. Just add this info yourself, there's nothing stopping you. And please remember to sign your comments using four tildes (~). Iron Reggie, the Easter Bunny Warrior 23:13, 29 March 2018 (EDT)

I added the data, and I'm fairly certain that Ganon down-tilt does not trip. It states that attacks that knock the target into the air can't trip, and Ganon's down tilt seems to knock the opponent into the air even at 0%.

It's because of the angle. However, it does have a trip chance programmed into it. Foolish Reggie, the Prankster Warrior 23:38, 29 March 2018 (EDT)

Btw, you still aren't signing your comments. Have a read of the talk page policy before responding to this. Foolish Reggie, the Prankster Warrior 01:23, 30 March 2018 (EDT)

Did anyone else do this?

Hey guys, I've been testing some rather overlooked features in Brawl, and I happened to "stumble" across a new discovery. Well, apparently when you move the control stick in either direction while random tripping, you can actually nullify the second portion of tripping. I call it the "scorpion" because it just looks like that funny pose.

Now, I'm just wondering, did any one of you notice this? If not, go test it and see for yourselves. Requiem of Ice (talk) 16:59, 2 March 2014 (EST)

Pratfalling

A bonus in Melee is called "Pratfalling". Does this refer to the state of helplessness after using an up special move, or something else? I'm wondering if pratfalling may not mean tripping in Brawl, then. Red (talk) 10:23, 21 May 2014 (EDT)

As said on the list of bonuses page, it refers to landing face up after tumbling. Toomai Glittershine The Eggster 10:48, 21 May 2014 (EDT)

Tripping is official now

In one of the tips about Diddy's banana peels in Smash 3DS, it says "Have a nice trip!". Should the unofficial icon be removed? PikaSamus (talk) 10:41, 19 September 2014 (EDT)

It's a common joke, so I don't think it carries the weight of "official term status". Toomai Glittershine The Celeritous 10:42, 19 September 2014 (EDT)

That makes sense. PikaSamus (talk) 10:45, 19 September 2014 (EDT)

an actual trip chance value for attacks

I'd like to bring up the possibility of adding an actual % chance for tripping instead of using vague notions like '2%-25%' or '2%-12%'. KuroganeHammer a while ago brought up the idea that the game chose between those values randomly, but it's not exactly right. There are a few reasons why using the average of those two values is not only easier to think about, but correct. From a statistical standpoint, if there's a 50/50 scenario for two random variables measuring the same outcome (let's say the chances are A and B), then the overall chance for the event to occur is exactly 0.5A+0.5B = (A+B)/2, which is their average. In Brawl, this would mean that the trip chance would be (0.25+0.02)/2 = 0.135, and in Smash 4 it would be 0.07. But let's say you were concerned with representing how the game actually calculates the chance that you trip. Since these are floats, we can set them to be less than 0 or more than 1, which no longer makes sense in a statistical context, but it's still computable. If you set the numbers to 2 and 0, the result is that a move that applies the base trip chance will always trip. If the game chose either value randomly, then it would have a 50% to trip instead. If it chose a random number between 0 and 2 for trip chance, then the trip chance would be 75% (equal to the area under the probability distribution/length). To rule out the possibility that using a number > 1 messes with calculations, you can set the values 1.5 and 0, and it will trip 75% of the time (I tested this in both Brawl and Smash 4). Lastly, I even checked the asm code within Brawl to figure out where it calculates trip chance, and I found that it literally takes the two trip chance values and does the computation (0.25-0.02)*0.5+0.02, and the resulting value [0.135 + bonus trip chance (if any)] is compared to a random float (not sure of the range here, but I think it's just a float in between 0 and 1) to tell whether you trip.

Basically I'm saying that it would be better to use the values 13.5% (Brawl) and 7% (Smash 4) than to use a non-specific range for a statistical chance (lol). It still doesn't make sense that they would use 2 values, but I have yet to see any evidence that the game does anything different in any scenario. I will probably make the change soon enough--Ben Hall (talk) 22:57, 30 September 2017 (EDT)

trip chance value in Brawl for dashing and dash-turning (remark about edit)

I don't know how to address a specific user here, but for Serpent King, I literally analyzed the assembler code that calculates trip chance and I identified all values controlling the rate when starting a dash or running-turnaround. The game takes the average of the IC-Basic values (0.02) and (0) to calculate the 0.01 trip rate for dashing and it takes the average of (0.025) and (0) to calculate the 1.25% chance of trips. These values are IC-Basic[3209] through IC-Basic[3212], which you can find now labeled on the OpenSA floating point IC map. If you care to analyze the ASM for the function that calculates the trip chance, you can find the function located at code address 8089e820. Additionally one edit I forgot to add was that there is a minimum time of 10 seconds in between random trips due to dashing or running-turnarounds. This value is located on the same page in the Int IC-Basics category, IC-Basic[23059]. All of this can be modded and confirmed.--Ben Hall (talk) 22:41, 30 October 2017 (EDT)

EDIT: Here's a couple photos of the assembler code that computes this value.--Ben Hall (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2017 (EDT)

Alright fair enough. Uh...for future's sake, if you want to address me directly, you should use my talk page, but this worked out fine in the end too. Also in the future, simply summarizing that in the edit summary would have saved the confusion. If you can back up your findings as you just have, that's great, but too many people find inaccurate information out there (or indeed just "playtest" it and make assumptions and guesses) and try to put it on SmashWiki, which is why I called it out. Thanks, though for your explanation. Serpent King 23:36, 30 October 2017 (EDT)

I'll try to be better about making the sources clear and following the etiquette in the future, as I am new to Wiki editing. Thank you for understanding--Ben Hall (talk) 23:57, 30 October 2017 (EDT)