Talk:List of spirits (disambiguation)

Reworking the layout of the spirits pages

Long ago, I separated the battle data from the spirits stats because the spirits per series pages were way too cluttered. Since then, a lot of extra data as been added and/or reorganized (music, inspiration, stats) and the lists are now very cluttered yet again. A year ago, I proposed to rework the whole layout of those page to make them more readable, but the moderators consider that such a change requires a consensus, and because of the lack of comments on the proposition, it just went nowhere. So here I am now, making the same proposition again, hoping this time you'll all give your opinion about it.

The proposition consist of two main changes that are explained in separate sub-sections bellow to allow you to reply to each one separately:

Moving the origin informations out of the spirit stats arrays, and grouping them with the series informations.
Separating the battle inspirations from the battle data, to put them in a more generic "trivia" section.

In order to provide a preview of the result of such a change, I made a sandbox to display what the Wario series page would then look like: just click here.
YoshiRyu (talk) 07:02, February 21, 2021 (EST)

Moving the Origin with the series

The reasons I propose to move the origin informations with the series are the following ones:

First, it makes little to no sense to put the spirits origin and their artwork origin with the spirits stats and the other gameplay data.
It makes however a lot more senses to group the spirits origin and their artwork origin with their series, as all those informations are related the the spirits history.
It also makes no senses to separate the spirits origin informations by spirit types as those information are relevant to all the spirits, regardless of their type.

Incidentally, it could make more sense to put that list at the top of the page, in order to have it start with a complete spirits list, rather than the sublists.

Here is what the "Spirit Origin" array would look like in the end:

Spirit			Origin
No.	Image	Name	Spirit Origin	Artwork Origin	Series
1		Mario	Donkey Kong	Mario Party 10	Super Mario Series
2		Builder Mario	Super Mario Maker		Super Mario Maker Series
3		Mario (Wedding)	Super Mario Odyssey		Super Mario Series
4		Luigi	Mario Bros.	Mario Party 8	Super Mario Series

YoshiRyu (talk) 07:02, February 21, 2021 (EST)

I'd personally move the series titles to the main tables and the origin moved to the origin table. Just like stats the series info is readily visible and the sticker tables do it that way too. Granted this would make my life harder because of how my battle syncing code works. It would be easier for me to have the series info with the battles as well; if the below proposal goes through then spacing won't be an issue.

I heavily disagree with the proposed placement of the origin table. I like the useful information to be front and center, I don't consider origin stuff to be useful. As a player, the information I need to play the game is stats, abilities, and maybe battle info.

Oppose the placement, neutral on everything else.

--CanvasK (talk) 08:40, February 21, 2021 (EST)

I'm not 100% sold on this array being first, I just pointed out a reason to do so as a compromise. What a user seek the most in such a page is pretty subjective. Some people will use it the way you do (stats), some will come here to get the "acquisition" information to complete their collection, and some will come here simply because they're curious about that character spirit they've never heard about. Kinda hard to tell what's the most frequent use case here. YoshiRyu (talk) 04:09, February 22, 2021 (EST)

Moving the Inspirations in a new array

So, on top of messing up the readability of the battle array, this column has another problem: since it has been added, contributors have been editing it back and forth to add and remove informations that are tangentialy related to the spirit battles. Instead of fighting over it, we could simply remove the inspiration column from the battle array (keeping it for the in-game data about the battles only) and put that information in a brand new array that could either be a "Spirit trivia" section of its own or be put at the begining or the end of the regular trivia section. Such an array would allow, with proper context, to expand the battle inspiration with other informations such as why a spirit as a particular ability, or is acquired a particular way, or featured in a particular location in World of Light. I put a list of examples a how such a more generic column could be used at the end of this subsection.

Here is what this "Spirit Trivia" array would look like:

No.	Image	Name	Trivia points
104		Geno	Spirit Battle inspirations: The team that appears in his spirit battle represents the player's party in Super Mario RPG: Mario, Peach, Bowser, Mallow (represented by Kirby), and Geno (represented by Sheik). The decreased FS Meter charge time reflects one of Geno's moves, Geno Boost, which raises his allies' attack power. The stage choice represents Star Road, Geno's place of origin and a prominent location in Super Mario RPG. In World of Light, his Spirit Battle is located on the space area, reflecting how, in Super Mario RPG, Geno is a warrior from Star Road.

And here are some exemples of informations beside spirit battle inspirations that could be featured in that new trivia section:

Lakitu & Spiny: The type of this spirit is Grab in reference of Lakitu frequently using a fishing rod for various tasks since Super Mario Kart.
Absolutely Safe Capsule: The maximum defense stat of this spirit is 10,000, the highest in Smash, because this capsule is supposed to be impossible to break.
Waluigi: This spirit effect is Foot Attack ↑ as a reference to Waluigi being described having strong legs in Mario Tennis/Party (not sure, but you get the idea).
Geno: In World of Light, his Spirit Battle is located on the space area because, in Super Mario RPG, Geno is a warrior from Star Road.
Mimicutie: In World of Light, her Spirit Battle become available after the player tries to open a fake chest, referencing how Mimicuty tricks people by looking like a chest.
Zelda (Spirit Tracks): This spirit is enhanced from the Phantom spirit because in Spirit Tracks, Zelda is first introduced as a Phantom (not sure, but you get the idea).
Poppi α: This spirit is available throught summoning, reflecting how in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 she is an artificial blade built by Tora.
Aegislash: This spirit is available at Anna's Emporium to reference the fact that it is classified as a Royal Sword Pokémon in the Pokédex.
Stack-Up: This spirit can exclusively be acquired by purchasing it in a shop, referencing how R.O.B. was initially a real life accessory for the Nes sold separatly.
Agitha: This spirit can be obtained by completing the challenge "Collect 10 unique spirits" just like she revolved around collecting insects in Twilight Princess.

YoshiRyu (talk) 07:02, February 21, 2021 (EST)

I've been bouncing back-and-forth on how I feel about this. On one hand it adds another table to the page. On the other hand it removes the inspiration column from the battle table, which makes it much more user friendly on mobile (the Super Star inspiration takes more than a full phone screen, and makes the other ~~more important~~ info appear tiny). It would also allow for more trivia and have the WoL related stuff flow better. Neutral leaning towards support. --CanvasK (talk) 08:40, February 21, 2021 (EST)

I hate to be that one guy who slides into conversations, I suppose I should agree with the changes. The Pokémon Spirit Battle inspiration column does feel a bit to claustrophobic. Plus, the trivia points seem to highlight the Spirits' points in particular better than the inspiration column.Autismo555 (talk) 09:17, February 21, 2021 (EST)

It's a proposal, an open conversation. You're free to voice your thoughts on the proposed change. --CanvasK (talk) 09:53, February 21, 2021 (EST)

Cool. So would the Spirits of each series have their own trivia template apart from the Spirit Battle template, or would the battle parameters (including fighters, stage, music, rules and conditions, etc.) be included to help with the context?Autismo555 (talk) 10:50, February 21, 2021 (EST)

I think the former. If it was the latter it would be a lot of repeat info. --CanvasK (talk) 11:03, February 21, 2021 (EST)

Okay, so it would be like how YoshiRyu envisioned it? And if I may pick up where YoshiRyu left off, I'm currently conducting how his new array would appear with how I normally attempt to sort out the information regarding the Spirit Battles, World of Light information, etc.

Based on YoshiRyu's examples of the Spirits' trivia points, I've complied a few templates. Scrolling down, I've compiled these based on each different type of Spirits, including Spirits without Spirit Battles, Team Spirit Battles, Summonable Spirit Battles (with WoL information), Summon-exclusive Spirits, and Spirit Board-exclusive Spirit Battles

No.	Name	Trivia points
68	F.L.U.D.D.	This spirit's Support type references how F.L.U.D.D. is used by Mario in Super Mario Sunshine. This spirit's Sticky-Floor Immunity effect references F.L.U.D.D.'s ability to wash away the paint all over Isle Delfino.
104	Geno	Spirit Battle inspirations: The puppet fighters represent the player’s party in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars: Mario, Peach, Bowser, Mallow (represented by grey Kirby) and Geno (represented by Sheik). The Sheik puppet fighter starting off with a Super Scope represents Geno’s built-in blasters built into his body. The Mario puppet fighter starting off with a Green Shell represents Mario’s NokNok Shell. The Peach puppet fighter’s Autoheal effect references Princess Toadstool’s healing spells. The Mario Galaxy stage and music reference Star Road, Geno's place of origin in Legend of the Seven Stars. The stage features falling stars and the Warp Star and Star Rod are enabled in this spirit battle, referencing Geno being a star who descended from the Star Road and inhabited the Geno doll. The Fast FS Meter battle condition references Geno Boost, one of Geno’s signature moves which raises his allies’ attack power. This spirit’s Attack Type references Geno’s high offensive capabilities in battle. In World of Light, Geno’s spirit is located in the Outer Space section, referencing Geno being a star warrior who originated from the Star Road in Legend of the Seven Stars.
208	Fierce Deity Link	Spirit Battle inspirations: The Giant Link puppet fighter and grey costume is based on Fierce Deity Link’s appearance and color scheme. The Great Bay stage represents Fierce Deity Link’s appearance in The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask, with the Moon appearing in the background, referencing how Fierce Deity Link can be obtained inside the Moon before the final boss battle. The music references both Majora’s Mask and Calamity Ganon being the main antagonists of their respective games whose boss battles feature multiple phases. This spirit’s Attack type, Sword Attack ↑ effect, and spirit battle conditions references Fierce Deity Link’s raw power incorporated in his double-handed sword. This spirit is obtainable through summoning, referencing how the Fierce Deity Mask must be obtained by trading in twenty non-transformational masks with the Moon children. In World of Light, Fierce Deity Link's spirit is located on Dharkon's side on The Final Battle map while Mythra is featured across from him on Galeem's side, referencing their ability to wield their giant swords with powers polar opposite from each other, which, in Fierce Deity Link's case, is darkness.
208	Moon	This spirit's Giant effect references the Moon's giant size. This spirit is obtainable through summoning, referencing how the Moon was summoned by Majora's Mask in The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask.
331	Dragoon	Spirit Battle inspirations: The Pilotwings stage references the flying gameplay mechanic of Kirby’s Air Ride. The music references the Dragoon being one of two legendary flying machines in Kirby’s Air Ride. The Dragoon Parts item and the battle conditions reference how assembling each individual Dragoon Part will combine into the Dragoon, known for its high speed and flight capabilities. This spirit’s Giant Killer effect references the cutscene from The Subspace Emissary where Kirby uses the Dragoon to defeat the Subspace Gunship, a giant airship cannon.

Comments about the whole proposition

Various problems cause me to oppose this in its entirety.

The information is now more split up across the tables, making it harder to neatly track things. Right now all the information of importance is in the main Primary and Support tables, with the battles split out by necessity due to the impracticality of including them in the same table. Dividing this information up further is undesirable.
The "Series Order" lists are honestly expendable considering they are redundant to List of spirits (complete list) and I would rather see them axed than extended.
Using the same spirit image three times on one page is heavily excessive.
The horizontally-merged table cells you have for the Spirit Origin section looks absolutely terrible and I would permanently ban mismatched row elements like that if I could.

Probably the thing I most appreciate out of your proposal is the idea of better covering the origin/inspiration behind various spirit attributes outside of their battles. We cover summon formula references on Summon, but other references in terms of spirit abilities aren't really covered at the moment. That said, I find the overall re-structuring you're proposing to be very undesirable, so I would, personally, push for a very different mechanism to cover that info than the way you're suggesting here. Miles (talk) 19:56, February 21, 2021 (EST)

I do agree with Miles that using images on every table is a little excessive. I'd also be fine with axing the "Series Order" tables if it is incorporated into the main tables; the complete list and the other big lists don't list regional differences (which I'll probably fix later now that I've noticed it). --CanvasK (talk) 20:28, February 21, 2021 (EST)

So, would this be a bit much then?Autismo555 (talk) 21:10, February 21, 2021 (EST)

Spirit			Battle parameters							Trivia
No.	Image	Name	Enemy Fighter(s)	Type	Power	Stage	Rules	Conditions	Music	Trivia
20		Super Star	•Rosalina & Luma		9,200	Peach's Castle	•Attack Power ↑ •Temporary Invincibility •Item: Super Star	•The enemy will occasionally be invincible when the enemy's at high damage •All fighters are easy to launch •The enemy's FS Meter charges quickly	Main Theme - Super Mario 64	The Super Star itself appears as the item. The yellow Rosalina & Luma puppet fighter and the third battle condition references both Luma's star-shaped appearance and their Grand Star Final Smash resembling the Super Star. The stage and music references the Power Stars from Super Mario 64, a similar but distinct entity of the Super Star. The stage takes place in a cloudy sky, referencing the cloudy Floating Islands section where the Super Star's spirit is located in World of Light. This spirit's First-Strike Advantage effect and the spirit battle conditions references the Super Star's common ability to grant temporary invincibility and the ability to defeat their enemies in the Super Mario platformers.
104		Geno	•Sheik •Peach •Kirby •Bowser •Mario		13,700	Mario Galaxy (Battlefield form)	N/A	•Defeat the main fighter to win •Timed battle (2:30) •The enemy's FS Meter charges quickly	Rainbow Road Medley	Spirit Battle trivia: The puppet fighters represent the player’s party in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars: Mario, Peach, Bowser, Mallow (represented by grey Kirby) and Geno (represented by Sheik). The Sheik puppet fighter starting off with a Super Scope represents Geno’s blasters built into his body. The Mario puppet fighter starting off with a Green Shell represents Mario’s NokNok Shell. The Peach puppet fighter’s Autoheal effect references Princess Toadstool’s healing spells. The stage and music reference Star Road, a cosmic realm and Geno's place of origin in Legend of the Seven Stars. The stage features falling stars and the Warp Star and Star Rod are enabled in this spirit battle, referencing Geno being a star who descended from the Star Road and inhabited the Geno doll. The Fast FS Meter battle condition references Geno Boost, one of Geno’s signature moves which raises his allies’ attack power. Other trivia: This spirit’s Attack Type references Geno’s high offensive capabilities in battle. In World of Light, Geno’s spirit is located in the Outer Space section, referencing Geno being a star warrior who originated from the Star Road in Legend of the Seven Stars.
208		Fierce Deity Link	•Giant Link		13,900	Great Bay (Ω form)	•Defense ↓ •Easy to Launch •Attack Power ↑	•You are easy to launch •You have reduced defense after a little while •The enemy has increased attack power	Calamity Ganon Battle - Second Form	Spirit Battle trivia: The Giant Link puppet fighter and grey costume is based on Fierce Deity Link's appearance and color scheme. The stage represents Fierce Deity Link's appearance in Majora's Mask with the stage featuring the Moon appearing in the background where Fierce Deity Link can be obtained from within the Moon before the final boss fight. The music references both Majora’s Mask and Calamity Ganon being the main antagonists of their respective games whose boss battles feature multiple phases. This spirit’s Attack type, Sword Attack ↑ effect, and spirit battle conditions references Fierce Deity Link’s raw power incorporated in his double-handed sword. Other trivia: This spirit is obtainable through summoning, referencing how the Fierce Deity Mask must be obtained by trading in twenty non-transformational masks with the Moon children. In World of Light, Fierce Deity Link's spirit is located on Dharkon's side on The Final Battle map while Mythra is featured across from him on Galeem's side, referencing their ability to wield their giant swords with powers polar opposite from each other, which, in Fierce Deity Link's case, is darkness.

I don't have any critique or comment on the table at the moment, but can we start doing table revisions in user sandboxes? Just link to the revision to be shown? This page is already 2/3rds to the recommended archive size (I won't archive until everything is sorted), lengthy, and getting a little confusing because of the tables. --CanvasK (talk) 21:24, February 21, 2021 (EST)

Alright. Here's the link to my revision: https://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Autismo555 Autismo555 (talk) 21:39, February 21, 2021 (EST)

If you want to link to a specific version you can go to history, click the top revision, in the URL there will be "oldid=###", then you can copy and paste the numbers into this: [[Special:Diff/###]]. --CanvasK (talk) 21:44, February 21, 2021 (EST)

It seems to me that Miles and I aren't on the same page at all when it comes to what a wiki should look like, I more or less disagree with all of his arguments against the first part of the proposition, here is why:

Splitting up the information is not a problem here, when do a random user will ever have the need to compare a spirit stats to its origin game? In fact, having everything stuffed in the same array is what make things harder to check. This is not a database where the data structuration has to be optimized, this is a web page, it need to be easy on the eyes. Having a separation between gameplay data and lore data is actually pre-filtering informations by relevancy for different user archetypes.
I don't know in which way using the same spirit image three times on one page is heavily excessive, but it's also user friendly: it allows people to find what they're looking for faster. Repeating patterns are good UI design. This is quite telling of a big problem on this wiki: Contributors here tend to forget that the whole point of a wiki is to make informations accessible, they often think about the informations itself, but rarely they do think about its accessibility. The images help user to find a specific line faster.
And that the same point I will make for the idea of axing the series order entirely from those pages: Whenever a user ends up on on of those pages, and doesn't find that information, how are they supposed to know that they have to look for a complete spirits list to get it? It's pretty much the same problem here: You're thinking about where the information should go, when you should rather be thinking about where the information could be easily found by a random user.
The horizontally-merged table cells are not core to the proposition, I just went the way this wiki usually does. We can do the same thing without them rowspan, so this is an irrelevant point in my opinion.

Not that I want to push the idea so hard that I would dismiss any counter argument, but yours, just like a year ago, all sound a lot like "I just don't like it": Your point against dividing the informations seems pretty grounded, but for the other ones, basically, you don't like the series order section, you don't like using the same image multiple times, and you don't like rowspan...

About changing the inspiration column into a trivia column in the battle parameters array, as proposed by Autismo555:

That wouldn't solve the clutter issue, that would actually make it worst. And not all trivia points are related to the battles anyway, so we would still have the issue of people going back and forth adding and removing some trivia points that are relevant to the spirit yet not related to its battle (like summon cores lore). Independantly of the first part of the proposition, I still strongly think we need to get that inspiration column out of the battle array.

- YoshiRyu (talk) 04:57, February 22, 2021 (EST)

Another link to my userpage with the revision: https://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Autismo555 Autismo555 I checked the mobile view, and it seemed better in that format. Autismo555 (talk) 18:16, February 22, 2021 (EST)

(Direct link to the revision Special:Diff/1538059)--CanvasK (talk) 18:19, February 22, 2021 (EST)

Moving the battle information away from the battle data itself is detrimental to the exact thing you claim you're trying to improve: the ability to neatly find information. My point is that if you want information to be easily findable, try not to split it up whenever possible. Your recommendations would detach various bits of information away from each other in a way that makes them harder to navigate, not easier. [After the fact addition that I realize I forgot to say: I fully and thoroughly support condensing the wordiness of the battle inspirations/explanation notes to make the information easier to digest and less ridiculously verbose.] Miles (talk) 18:24, February 22, 2021 (EST)

What would you personally propose to have the information be readable in both desktop and mobile versions? Autismo555 (talk) 18:35, February 22, 2021 (EST)

I've found a way to keep the battle inspiration stuff where it is while making it more mobile friendly. Here is a mockup, done in Firefox simulating a Galaxy S9 (360x740). All it takes is adding <div style="max-height:200px;overflow-y: scroll"></div> to the inspiration cell. --CanvasK (talk) 18:39, February 22, 2021 (EST)

You know, if you're given the green light for that, it might work.Autismo555 (talk) 18:46, February 22, 2021 (EST)

Small change: "overflow-y: scroll" should be changed to "overflow-y: auto; overflow-x:hidden". This prevents the scrollbar when there is little inspiration text

Another view I made out of curiosity. Never realized how bad mobile was; I feel sorry for mobile users. It also works fine on desktop (added extra lines because the table is less squished). --CanvasK (talk) 19:24, February 22, 2021 (EST)

That's actually the reason why YoshiRyu suggested the change in the Spirit Battle inspiration column; so it could be readable to people who scours through the wiki on their phones.Autismo555 (talk) 20:44, February 22, 2021 (EST)

Here's my take. Added my overflow suggestion, moved series to be in the top few tables, made several columns (No., Type, Slots, etc.) 1% width since they don't take much space to begin with, and made the Inspiration column 20% width so it doesn't hog everything. The "Series Order" table becomes useless with the second edit and "Spirit Battle" now allows for more than one to be visible, even on small screens, with the first and fourth edit. Some issues I've noticed is on desktop Mii Fighters tend to take a lot of width because of my 1% widths and on mobile Inspirations will "float" in the middle if other cells (like conditions) are larger than the max set for Inspirations (perhaps Enemy Fighter(s) and Conditions should have set widths). --CanvasK (talk) 18:47, February 23, 2021 (EST)

In that case, you think you can widen the Pokémon spirit battle inspiration columns. It's so visually cramped!Autismo555 (talk) 10:07, February 28, 2021 (EST)

Wouldn't be hard with my implementation. In this version I added "min-width:200px" and it makes it less cramped on smaller screens without changing the size of the other columns compared to the previous version. --CanvasK (talk) 10:36, February 28, 2021 (EST)

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant for the desktop version.Autismo555 (talk) 11:22, February 28, 2021 (EST)

It will also work for desktop. Here is what it looks like, both on a 1920 monitor (top) and a 1024 monitor (bottom). --CanvasK (talk) 11:33, February 28, 2021 (EST)

I though you were talking about moving away the game origin from the spirit data. Moving away the inspirations from the battle data could indeed be detrimental if poorly done. But this is were proper wording will be the solution to make it so users don't need to check the battle data. A proper wording of all the inspiration will allow the users to know what each inspiration refers to. Basically:

Don't: The condition references (...)
Do: The low gravity condition references (...)

With proper wording, users won't need to check back the battle data when reading the inspirations. YoshiRyu (talk) 04:52, February 28, 2021 (EST)

It still seems to me as an unnecessary step to have that information split away in the first place. Also, having the explanatory notes right next to what they're explaining gives more reason to use less wordy language and thus make the page more readable, rather than pushing the info elsewhere and requiring more wordy language to make clear what's being explained. Miles (talk) 04:59, February 28, 2021 (EST)

That might be obvious to you, but what exactly are you calling an "explanatory note"? I have a suspicion you're assuming I have knowledge of a feature I haven't seen anywhere so far. Are you talking about some sort of pop-up infoboxes that could be placed on a "?" right after the condition, a bit like the references (but without the footnote part)? YoshiRyu (talk) 05:14, February 28, 2021 (EST)

Nothing of the sort. By "explanatory note" I meant the things that are currently in the battle tables explaining the various references in the battle. Apologies if the wording was unclear. Miles (talk) 13:46, February 28, 2021 (EST)

I had an idea of adding an extra row table to separate the spirit battle inspirations with the additional bit of inspiration for a spirit, similar to the Spirit Battle tables have the DLC changes (i.e. Ninjara, Aerith, Cuphead, etc.), but I don't know how to program that in.Autismo555 (talk) 20:01, March 2, 2021 (EST)