Template talk:CharacterPhysics

This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.

So here's the deal with this:

Last night on Discord I brought up the idea of making a template like this, which would be used for per-game character pages like Mario (SSB4) and Donkey Kong (SSB4) and such. While the attributes sections of these pages describe the character's general physics (mobility and weight and traction and such), it always bothered me that you need to hit up a ton of different pages to get the exact values for those.

It bothers me so much that I said I'd be willing to make the template and fill it out for every single character page myself, and I still stand by that... Except for the "make the template" part. I was woefully underprepared to make a template in Wikitext that works in this "fill-in-the-blanks" way, and even after basically two entire nights and an afternoon, I've not really been able to figure out how to code a template like this.

This template is incomplete and almost certainly nonfunctional. What you see on the page is an approximation of how I think it should look, and beneath it is the code that I want to be used to fill it out. I'm posting it regardless though, because at the rate things are going (and given my level of coding knowledge), I doubt I'll be able to do it myself.

Also, I realize it's kind of strange to post something like this, which is essentially a proposition, outside of the forum. I was given the OK to go ahead and make it by Toomai though. He says that anybody who cares will see this and be open to discuss it. And we will need to discuss this, because it's possible I left out some things, or put some unnecessary things in. Please use this talk page to discuss potential changes to be made to this table, or whether you want to use it at all, because we'll need to come to a consensus on what we want this to look like.

Sorry about how messy this all is top to bottom, but it's here now. Please share your thoughts. Someone who's more knowledgeable with Wikitext can finish the template if they want, but like I said before, I'll still take it upon myself to actually put the thing on relevant pages. Nymbare and his talk 21:46, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

Support

I see no problems. I would fully support this as standard on character pages.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 21:50, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

I'd be down for this Poultry(talk) the God-Slayer 11:24, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

Support This would tie pages together with information that is more easily comparable in one table. RobSir zx 20:25, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

Support. I've wished we had something like this in the past. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 21:25, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

Obvious support, we've needed something like this for a while. As reliable as Kurogane Hammer is, we shouldn't have to go there for EVERYTHING. Ganonmew, The Evil Clone 11:14, 6 July 2017 (EDT)

Support to quote SuperMega: YES YES YES!!!!! Alex Parpotta the flying lobster! 06:03, 16 July 2017 (EDT)

Support. Not sure if you're still taking votes but it was about time someone implemented this. John HUAH! 16:09, 26 July 2017 (EDT)

Neutral

I agree that it would be nice to have these values in an easy format, but I am unsure this is the way to do it. Serpent King 22:08, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

If not something like this, what other ways do you think we could present the values? Nymbare and his talk 20:17, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

Oppose

...

Discuss potential changes here

One thing I should note is that I deliberately left out landing lag, of which some characters have unique values (for Hard Landings exclusively, as far as I'm aware). Should we include that, or no? We may also need to do a per-game split to account for various system changes. Nymbare and his talk 21:46, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

What if we made the table vertical then floated it to the right of the moveset table? Serpent King 04:29, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

That could work quite nicely, actually. Now that I think about it, it may "clash", in a way, for this to be a horizontal template where the overwhelming majority of templates like this are vertical. I would be alright with this change. Nymbare and his talk 20:17, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

We might want to make only more basic stats like jump count and weight visible at first glance but include a separate, initially hidden table with the ranks and other stats. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 21:25, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

I think I'll bring this up here: does anyone actually care if the aerial images we have sitting next to the moveset tables get removed? They don't really serve much of a purpose anymore. If we could get rid of that, this table could take its place. Serpent King 21:29, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

Okay here's my quick opinions:

1. Don't put three numbers in one cell for aerial maneuverability.
2. Some things could be reordered; put traction and jumpsquat before aerial movement for example. Weight should be last.
3. Don't float one table next to another. That's just ugly².
4. I think weight and number of jumps could be important enough to put in the infobox instead of this. Not 100% sure though.

Toomai Glittershine The Brazen 21:34, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

I also oppose putting a theoretical table next to the moveset table; it'd make pages look far too "busy" and "messy.". I'd prefer putting this table either as part of the Character infobox, or in the attributes section.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 21:49, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

First update

As per the suggestions above, I've made some changes amidst the fireworks:

1. I reordered some things, putting related categories together. Traction and jumpsquat come before aerial stuff now, and falling speed and gravity are where they ought to be. Thanks, Toomai
2. The Air Acceleration/Deceleration/Friction cell has been split into three.
3. As per a suggestion from SK, I've made a second, vertical version of the table. I'll admit I didn't bother much to do anything code-related with this one, so it's all looks.

I thought about it some, and really, I think placing this in the attributes section would make a lot more sense than placing it above/below/alongside the moveset table. That just seems like a more sensible and relevant place to put this information, that would also greatly alleviate the clutter that could come with putting so many tables in such a tight space together. Thoughts? Nymbare and his talk 22:28, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

Alright I just made a couple of mocks of this template. Lemme know what you think. I think Nyargle also came up with something...yeah here Serpent King 23:10, 4 July 2017 (EDT)

We could make an alternative six-column version (as opposed to the current three-column design). Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 18:47, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

July 5th Discussion Update

Not only is this proposal being made outside of the forum, but I almost made this post at the top of the talk page. I got a little scared though, so it's down here. Hopefully everyone scrolled down.

Regardless, I'll gather up everything we've discussed. If you're new to this discussion, this list will outline the basics of what we've been over so far.

• We are discussing the creation and implementation of a template which will create a table detailing a character's physics, such as speed, traction, weight, and other such statistics. This will be a "fill-in-the-blank" table, similar to Template:Infobox Character.
• If approved, it will become standard practice to place this table on every per-game character page, such as Mario (SSB), Link (SSBM), Ike (SSBB) and Cloud (SSB4).
• Implementation of the template has faced no direct opposition at this time and has garnered support from a handful of active and influential users including a wiki admin.
• We haven't come to a clear consensus on where we want to use this table. It is most likely to be placed, however, in the attributes section of each page.
• The template for which this page is the talk page is not functional, and is a mock-up for what it is meant to look like at this time.
• If the template is to be accepted, I will take it upon myself to implement it on every character page.

Alright, now. As stated above, functional/semi-functional versions have been created by SK and Nyargle. View them here and here, respectively.

We've all agreed that this template should be implemented, but we need to come to a consensus on what it should look like.

Here's my opinion: I think we should employ sort of a mix of Nyargle's table and SK's style 2 table.

I like SK's idea of having abilities in their own section of the table, and also the red/green circle thingies that look a lot better and more in line with the wiki than a simple yes/no. I'm going with style 2 just as a matter of personal preference, I think it looks better (plus it also makes sense in my eyes to save the things not everyone has for last).

Nyargle's idea of introducing a drop-down box is, quite frankly, genius. I never would have thought to do that but it makes the table look so much cleaner while alleviating any worries I had that overly-technical statistics would clutter the page. However, I don't think Fall Speed deserves to be in there, that seems pretty simple to me.

We could essentially take SK's table #2, gut some of it to put in Nyargle's hidden section, and add that at the end of the table. I think that would be the best way to go about doing this.

There are also somethings we're missing, though. It was brought to my attention on Discord (I forget by whom) that I totally forgot to include jump height on this table. Sorry about that. We also will need to incorporate the ability to "strike out" certain abilities/attributes that don't appear in certain games: wall jumping doesn't exist in Smash 64, gliding is only in Brawl, and crawling was introduced in Brawl, for instance.

That's all from me. What do you guys think? Nymbare and his talk 16:18, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

I think either of SK's tables work. I think they're compact enough that we might not need a drop-down, but if we did, I would prefer to hide the attributes. As for where to put it, the attributes section works. Lord knows we already have enough in the moveset section. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 20:02, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

To rehash my edit summary: I just made an update to the template in my sandbox that allows the template to detect the character and game right out of the article's title, without the need for extra parameters. I also added Nyargle's headers like he asked. I can make a 3rd style with the dropdown in a sec I guess, but I am not sure I like the idea Serpent King 20:08, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

We can get rid of the drop-down if there's not support for it. On second thought the template really doesn't get to be long enough to warrant it anyway, I feel. I have a question though, what are we to do if we know a character's rank in a field, but not the exact value? (this seems to be the case for jump heights in every game except Smash 4, for instance.) Would putting a dash in the value section and tagging it with the we-need-technical-data template suffice? Nymbare and his talk 11:41, 6 July 2017 (EDT)

I guess leaving it blank would be the way to go. The tech data tag should go on Jump instead. Serpent King 16:30, 6 July 2017 (EDT)

My two cents, again:

I like Serp's first option on his sandbox, as I feel the generic, "binary" information should be atop the table, after which it delves into more in-depth, relative information, just like how our articles should be written. And the character header atop the table helps to act as a visual identifier.

I strongly oppose including a "show more" template within the table. All pertinent information should be immediately visible to readers. This goes for all pages: Readers should not have to do a lot of hunting in order to get the most basic information on a subject.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 14:51, 7 July 2017 (EDT)

Alright, I think having the abilities section at the top of the table works fine then, and we can definitely get rid of any kind of dropdown box. I've tagged Jump for technical data, and I've also updated the template's code to make it identical to SK's table 1 while making adjustments based on what we've agreed on so far (adding sections for jumps and splitting AA/AD/AF apart). I asked Serp on this matter on Discord and he disagreed, but would anybody be open to adding a field in the abilities table for whether the character has a delayed double jump? Nymbare and his talk 14:03, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

(indent reset) I'm not as well-versed in Smash as I once was. How many characters are there that have a delayed double jump? If it's only a two or so, we could probably axe it, but if it's more than, say, 4, I think it'd be worth keeping.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 14:18, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

Off the top of my head, Mewtwo, Ness, Lucas, Yoshi, and I believe Peach has one too. It's not particularly common and definitely not as widespread as the likes of wall jumping, but a decent handful of characters still have it, and it wouldn't fit well into the moveset section, so I believe it's worth noting here. Nymbare and his talk 14:27, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

I thought it was a Melee only thing? Serpent King 14:28, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

It isn't. You may be thinking of double jump cancelling, which is only in Melee and is only usable by characters with delayed double jumps, but delayed double jumps themselves are in every game. Nymbare and his talk 14:34, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

Yeah, with five characters that have a delayed double jump versus seven that have more than one midair jump, I think it's fine to put whether or not a character has a delay to their double jump.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 14:40, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

Alright. If we can get the ok from one or two other people on that, I guess we can formally add DDJs to the table? Since they're in every game though, and the code in place for other Y/N abilities is all restricted based on game, I'll leave inserting them to somebody who knows more about code. I also switched the table over to Mario in Brawl, since that way you can see gliding (which i moved up a little) Nymbare and his talk 17:08, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

We have a problem: this looks terrible. I am having trouble fitting it anywhere logical in the article. We could just forget the float and give it its own section, but I don't like the idea of 2/3 a screen of whitespace. Any suggestions? Serpent King 17:30, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

I know you're temporarily out, but for when you get back: I guess with how it looks, I wouldn't be opposed to including a Show/Hide button on the "statistics" header. I guess including in-depth information behind a wall when the base result looks terrible isn't such a bad choice here.

--- Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire, 18:57, 16 July 2017 (EDT)

I can see how that looks at a later time. ...The thing is, I have a feeling that this would look just fine on like...every Melee character article and most SSB4 ones...but there is always less to say about Brawl and SSB so it doesn't line up right. Serpent King 01:11, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Does this look less terrible? Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 14:39, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Bump. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 20:29, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

I think crow's idea is the best way to go about it... At least then it wouldn't look bad until someone clicks show. Serpent King 20:31, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

Horrifically late reply, but I think Crow's idea would work fine here. I think at this point it's the only option left. We can make further changes to the template in the future if we come up with a better way to work around the situation, anyway. Nymbare and his talk 14:40, 24 July 2017 (EDT)