Template talk:Attributes

Forums: Index → Proposals → Attributes

This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.

It's been a while since my last contribution to the wiki, but I feel like this is a worthy one to talk about again.

Back in 2017, I observed a problem in the way we handle Attributes sections on our character pages. We would make frequent reference to a character's attributes – how fast they run, how slow they fall, and the like – but the exact numbers were nearly never listed anywhere on the page, and how those numbers ranked among the cast were not often referenced, either. If you wanted to examine a character's stats, you had to individually pick their stats out of every attribute page on the wiki.

The solution I posited to this problem was the CharacterPhysics template, talk page linked here. Serpent King kinda had to bail my terrible code out, but the idea behind this solution received nearly no pushback. The only reason behind it not being implemented was that it looked horrible. It took up too much space, threw off formatting, and tried to cram itself with every bit of information it could possibly muster.

This template does not.

A couple things I want to point out:

• CharacterPhysics had an entire subsection, labelled "abilities", which I cut out for this iteration, because those have their home directly above a character's moveset anyway (e.g. "Sheik can crawl, wall cling, and wall jump"), and don't need to be listed twice.
• The code I have was made for a fan project and has Ultimate in mind, so it does not include a jumpsquat section, which the original did. I think this is important to maintain for pre-Ultimate Smash games, but I haven't puzzle out how to write a field that deletes itself if no value is filled in in wikitext. I think we could squeeze it in as a secondary value for the Jumps column, like how both base and additional air acceleration are present in the Air Acceleration column.
• CharacterPhysics also had a "ranking" section that did exactly what it sounds like it would do, but it was one of the things that took up a lot of space in the original template. An issue we ran into with the last version of the table was that we wanted to avoid using hidden rollover text, because back then, there was no way for mobile users to see it. Since 2017, rollover text has been updated to support mobile users by letting you view rollover text by clicking on the displayed text. Again, I have no idea how to code this, but I think we should add the ranking of each stat to the template as rollover text (e.g. clicking on Ganondorf's weight value and seeing it replaced by "5th out of 82"). This is important to implement, because for users not familiar with the general ranges of these values, the numbers will be meaningless. I managed to implement the rankings, thanks CanvasK.

If this goes through, it would be implemented on all character pages at the top of each attributes section. Please discuss. Nymbare and his talk 04:39, June 21, 2020 (EDT)

Support

1. Support. I think this is a good idea. I never realized that the attributes weren't on the fighter pages. As for how to implement the rollover text, I think || {{rollover|{{{weight}}}|{{{rweight}}}|y}} || {{rollover|{{{dash}}}|{{{rdash}}}|y}}... etc. will do what you want. --CanvasK (talk) 09:26, June 21, 2020 (EDT)

   Thank you for the help! I just implemented the rollover rankings. Nymbare and his talk 18:01, June 21, 2020 (EDT)

2. Support. Sound like a good idea. As CanvasK said, we could make it scrollable. 46.229.158.109 10:29, June 21, 2020 (EDT)
3. Support. Definitely a step up from what we currently have, or rather, lack. Pokebub (talk) 17:52, June 21, 2020 (EDT)
4. Support. I actually do remember seeing something like this a while ago, but it was gone he next day for reasons I can not fathom. The unused Template linked at the top is perfect if the abilities section (crawls, number of jumps) is removed. 72.219.72.215 23:01, June 22, 2020 (EDT)
5. Support. This template looks absolutely mint. Acgamer28 01:25, June 23, 2020 (EDT)

Neutral

1. I like this idea, but I want to see if I can come up with something better. Please wait on implementing this until we can compare versions. Serpent  King 07:11, June 23, 2020 (EDT)

   Alright Here's what I came up with. Pros of mine over this:

   1. Abilities are listed but not in a plagiarized way from Smashpedia
   2. Abilities that do not exist in a certain game are automatically removed
   3. Attributes are in groups rather than lumped unceremoniously together. This also allows us the room to list more of them
   4. Values and rank both visible without rollover
   5. Includes jumping attributes
   6. Links go directly to the attribute's rank list per game

   I did not include additional air acceleration because I felt that it was remote enough a statistic that it wasn't necessary to list. Serpent  King 08:33, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

   I personally think abilities do not need to be listed, as very few characters tend to have them (Float in particular only being on two), as well as most of them already being listed above each characters' moveset sections, the individual pages for each ability, and the fighter ability page. Everything else looks good though. 72.219.72.215 14:45, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

   Sure but I think it would be helpful for people to just real quickly glance at this and say oh, Luigi can crawl and etc. The fact that so few characters exhibit these abilities is all the more reason to have this imo, to clearly mark that a character has a few extra options. Serpent  King 15:21, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

Ok, I understand about crawling, multiple jumps, and wall actions, but floating absolutely should not be on the list unless it gets replaced by an "other fighter abilities" box. The only characters who have the ability are clones of each other. Otherwise, I really like the template. 72.219.72.215 21:46, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

1. If it gets its own subpage, Support otherwise I share Miles' concerns of cluttering the main fighter pages. Also I don't think floating should be listed as one of the checkmark sections because it's a signature ability of one character and their echo, perhaps we could use whether Fighter ability lists an ability as single character or shared to determine if it should get a checkmark or if it should be mentioned in the subpage, but not within the template itself. DekZek 01:08, January 20, 2021 (EST)

Oppose

In its current form, absolutely oppose. We already overdo it on raw technical data on too many pages and this would over-emphasize it that much further. This kind of stuff should be relegated to subpages or external data repository sites, not a weighty infobox taking up substantial space on the main character pages. Miles (talk) 15:15, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

I wouldn't be too opposed to having one of these (mine or Nymbare's) in a subpage, but it would need more than just the table. Kind of awkward to have it floating there with nothing else around it Serpent  King 15:23, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

I mean, to me it seems similar to a case like Bulbapedia's game data subpages which exist to keep information organized without further cluttering the already-lengthy main article. Miles (talk) 15:35, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

Part 2

I think we can agree that we should do this in sub pages, now all that's left is to figure out which version we are using:
(Serpent  King 10:02, February 6, 2021 (EST))

Votes for this version

1. Support This version is not bloated with two-character gimmicks like floating or wall clinging, and frankly having them in a purely vertical table looks nicer. 72.219.72.215 10:32, February 6, 2021 (EST)

Votes for the other version

1. Since this goes into a subpage, being "bloated" is actually a good thing, it just means it is more complete. The other version is more compact but it misses information on jump heights and air friction, for example. Being more compact in my opinion also means making a subpage for it unnecessary. --Rdrfc (talk) 12:16, February 6, 2021 (EST)

Comments and proposed changes for either version

I think if this version is used there should be a "game" parameter. The idea is that this could be used in a switch statement that would then assign a variable with the number of fighters in that game. This would remove the need for the "cast" parameter and prevent the need to edit 80+ pages when a new fighter is released. Something along the lines of {{#vardefine:cast|#switch: {{{game|}}}|SSB|64=12|SSBM|Melee=26|SSBB|Brawl=39|...}}. Fighter pages would still need to be updated with new fighter additions, however only those whose rank changed would need it instead of every fighter. --CanvasK (talk) 10:49, February 6, 2021 (EST)

I just noticed that Serpent King's version does just that. I'm a little confused on why a subpage was agreed upon. Looking at the Bulbapedia argument, the information on their subpages are still on the mainpage. I can easily see Nymbare's being slotted at the top of a fighter's attribute section. I think if SK's had the headers for "character (SSBX)" and "ground attributes" it would be a lot thinner and would also fit in an attribute section. --CanvasK (talk) 12:54, February 6, 2021 (EST)

I put together a preview of what I was thinking. Top two are simply at the top of the section with a modification to SK's design, displayed on a 1024-wide monitor. Next two are on a 1920-wide monitor with an additional float:right attribute. --CanvasK (talk) 13:15, February 6, 2021 (EST)