Template talk:Symbol/Archive 1

Change default symbol from Special Stages to Other

So yesterday I edited this template to change the default symbol to the ellipsis from Ultimate. But I realized I may have jumped the gun, so after fixing the links to this template to make sure Melee's Battlefield has the appropriate symbol, I changed this template back to the Special Stages symbol to wait for consensus. But I think I should have let an admin undo my edit? Well, I'm not going to do a self-edit war. So, I'm going to just ask in the fourth talk page to have this discussion for permission. The Special Stages symbol have been our placeholder symbol for characters from a minor universe for years. And now that Super Smash Bros. Ultimate uses an ellipsis for both music and spirits from minor universes and the Other series symbol has been uploaded, should we change our default symbol to that? Battlefield was a Smash original stage that was never meant to represent any minor games so the usage of Battlefield's symbol for minor characters does feel odd to me. The three dots you see when you have a character in your spirit party like Spring Man should be the shape under his image on his article, not the shattered ball that was exclusive to Melee's Battlefield. And even for content pre-Ultimate, if it goes under "Other" series, it should have Ultimate's "Other" symbol because Battlefield is not an "Other" property and Geno had the mushroom symbol before he was categorized in the Mario series spirits. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2019 (EST)

I agree. I don’t know how to change it, since the site’s internal code lists the special stages symbol as “other”. If anybody could change that file’s image, then renaming the current “symbol|other” as “symbol|specialstages”, then that would be great. 184.181.102.188 22:56, 14 January 2019 (EST)

I agree，it's obvious.--Capstalker (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2019 (EST)

I'm just waiting for an admin's permission. I can go ahead and change it if I'm that impatient, but I don't want my edits to be reverted or be given warnings. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2019 (EST)

Okay, so I caved again and Miles reverted it. Why is the one used for a Smash original stage better suited than the ellipsis? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:59, 20 January 2019 (EST)

For two main reasons:

1. An ellipsis doesn't even remotely resemble the style of the other series symbols, and as such isn't even immediately recognizable as being one or having any particular meaning.
2. It's not even used in the context you're using it for, as it's used for Ultimate's sound test even for songs that are part of established character/stage universes with symbols such as Ice Climber, Duck Hunt, etc. It's not used for miscellaneous spirits, either.

The Melee Battlefield logo isn't a 100% perfect fit for this usage but the ellipsis is a much much worse choice, by my judgment. Miles (talk) 19:25, 20 January 2019 (EST)

Actually it is used for miscellaneous spirits. While it is absent when you check the Spirit inventory, many users have pointed out that it is seen when you put an "other series" character as your primary spirit in World of Light. I have checked myself with Shantae, Spring Man and Prince of Sablé and it is indeed true. When you put Shantae in your party, you should see a green translucent ellipsis where her series symbol should be. And that's only in World of Light and Spirit Board. When you go to Team Setup in Collection, the ellipsis symbol is not there. But if you save the team and use it for World of Light and Spirit Board, it is there. The ellipsis is used for Spirits if you know where to look. Don't believe me? Turn on your Switch, go to World of Light, and put a Primary Spirit in your party that doesn't have a symbol. You'll see the dots there where the series symbol should be. Duck Hunt and Ice Climber have the ellipsis in the music section because they don't have enough songs for their own tracks and had to be grouped in the Other track that mostly uses songs from unrepped games. Besides, if you think this symbol was exclusive to music, then why did Toomai upload this symbol and not the "All" symbol or that musical note? Because it was used for Primary Spirits in World of Light and Spirit Board. For some reason, it's missing from the Collection menu. And even if you don't like the ellipsis, whether it's too small or something, if the game actually used it for miscellaneous stuff, then it's more appropriate then the one used for a Smash original stage. Whether you like the ellipsis or not, it's your opinion. I personally like the FOXHOUND logo more than the exclamation mark, but we still gotta use the exclamation for Metal Gear stuff. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2019 (EST)

1. I uploaded the symbol because it is used as a symbol for something in the game (unlike the non-symbol-text "All" or the website-exclusive eigth note). That doesn't automatically mean we plan to use it (or have to use it) for differing purposes.
2. The Metal Gear symbol changing isn't really a valid comparison; we still use it in Brawl places.
3. I very much agree with Miles's point 1. The three dots do not look like a symbol if used in a location where other symbols aren't present for context. Say what you will about the special stages symbol, but it quickly gets across the point of "this isn't something that fits anywhere else" without looking too different from other symbols.
4. I would much rather create a wiki-original symbol than use SSBU's "other" for previous games. Simply put I don't like backporting symbols to previous games, and the current setup only does that for a few things in SSB64. Toomai Glittershine The Ghostbuster 06:55, 21 January 2019 (EST)

I don't understand, why use "special stage" symbol to represent the minor universes if actual game use "other" symbol? If we shouldn't use "other" symbol in games without it, also shouldn't use "special stage" symbol, should just blank, and the spirits already includes most of the minor universes of previous games. ok, let's vote on it.--Capstalker (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Capstalker has a point. Why should we use the Special Stages symbol if it was only used by Melee's Battlefield when we were given the ellipsis for the minor universes? And what is the special stages symbol depicting exactly? A shattered ball? Pizza? A reticle? A fan? I've got no clue. It sure doesn't fit with any of the minor universes like ARMS or Golden Sun. But the ellipsis works because it's a commonly used symbol for waiting and all those series are waiting to get their own symbol. So I find the ellipsis much better than Battlefield's abstact shape. It might seem too small, but that's the point. These series don't have a symbol to represent them, so a hard-to-see symbol can show show that. I think you've gotten too used to the Battlefield symbol. There are probably new readers looking at that symbol and wondering where it came from. And it turns out that the symbol we're using for the minor universes came from a stage that should have used the original Smash symbol. Using Battlefield's symbol is us calling Battlefield Melee a property of a minor universe. We have to take the ellipsis. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:40, 21 January 2019 (EST)

While it's never outright "confirmed", it's pretty clear that the Melee Battlefield symbol is representative of parts coming together to a whole, which well suits the miscellaneous components that are otherwise not assigned a symbol but are still part of the "whole" of Smash. And as we've pointed out, an ellipsis isn't even recognizable as a series symbol stand-in in the first place. Using the Special Stage symbol is also a good compromise between the two more common ways in which Smash has previously identified miscellaneous stuff: with no symbol at all (as seen in most menus other than the Ultimate sound test), or with the Smash logo itself (especially in Brawl); using a symbol associated with Smash but not the main Smash logo which is used for Smash-original properties seems like a good way of communicating the idea. (Tangentially, I think insisting that "we have to" do it a certain way is a pretty flimsy basis for your case.) Miles (talk) 18:46, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Do we even need a series symbol where there isn't one? Why can't the Special Stages symbol be exclusive to Melee Battlefield? You really do not like the ellipsis? What would we do if Joker comes out and you don't accept the new Persona symbol? When the ellipsis is used for both music and spirits of the "Other" category, I think we should use the ellipsis for articles of the "Other" category, especially certain characters who have been Primary Spirits in Ultimate like Takamaru, Sukapon, Prince of Sablé, Ray MK III, Saki Amamiya, Isaac, Starfy, Chibi-Robo, Barbara the Bat, Dr. Kawashima, Shovel Knight, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Bomberman and Akira who have all used the ellipsis symbol with their spirits and never used the Battlefield symbol or any other series symbol. If I thought the FF symbol looked bad, should I ask you to change it? No, because Smash 4 and Ultimate had used it for Cloud, Midgar and everything to do with Final Fantasy. We finally get a symbol for miscellaneous music and Spirits that's not a music note or a Spirits logo and you insist on putting the Battlefield Melee logo on pages that shouldn't have it? SeanWheeler (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2019 (EST)

As Toomai made clear, "The three dots do not look like a symbol if used in a location where other symbols aren't present for context. Say what you will about the special stages symbol, but it quickly gets across the point of "this isn't something that fits anywhere else" without looking too different from other symbols." I'm not suggesting overriding a symbol that's based on anything like the Final Fantasy FF, so please don't sidetrack the discussion like that. The ellipsis does a terrible job of denoting "miscellaneous" because it's not comprehensible as a symbol like the actual series have, and so the idea of using it in that role is undesirable, by my judgment. Toomai and I have raised serious concerns with this approach and I want you to understand that it's not nearly as simple as you're making it out to be. Miles (talk) 20:44, 21 January 2019 (EST)

The ellipsis looks totally fine in my opinion. So what if it looks different from the other symbols? All symbols are different. We've got a W, and exclamation mark, a Poké Ball, a Triforce, a sword, a boxing glove, Sonic's head, the letters DK, a mushroom, an egg, the letters SF, the letters FF, some kind of moon symbol with a circle in it, a paw print, a house, a fox, etc. I think an ellipsis would fit right in. And no, I won't be confused with ellipsis in the regular text. When it's placed where the series symbol should be and it's the same grey color, it shouldn't be that confusing. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:34, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Given that it could easily be confused for bullet points or periods and that grey on a white background does little to distinguish it as a symbol as opposed to text, I vehemently disagree. Miles (talk) 23:48, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Three bullet points on the same line? No, I don't think so. We've got a W for Wario, FF for Final Fantasy and an exclamation mark for Metal Gear. Can you tell me about a page where a series symbol could blend in with the text? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I’m going to have to agree with Sean here. Unless somebody is completely blind, few will realistically going to think the ellipsis is three random periods. It’s actually more likely for somebody to go “what the heck is that” with the special stages symbol than the ellipsis. I vehemently believe we should have the ellipsis. 184.181.102.188 02:05, 22 January 2019 (EST)

Whether it looks like a symbol or not, it's actually a symbol, it's used in Spirits is evidence. I don't think the symbol is be confused, because it only appears where symbols should be. as SeanWheeler said, it's reasonable for "other" symbol is different from other symbols, it represents the minor universe rather than a specific series. so is right not to have one's obvious features.--Capstalker (talk) 02:41, 22 January 2019 (EST)

It looks to me like all the arguments in favour of using the three-dots symbol really all simplify down to the same one: that it's official. And we don't really care if a text term is official if an unofficial one is already entrenched - so why shouldn't we do the same for symbolic images that serve the same purpose (by which I mean we could just say "Mario universe" in text and we'd lose no information in 99% of cases), and are ultimately used more for flavour and aesthetics than information? Toomai Glittershine The Dispenser 19:05, 22 January 2019 (EST)

That's not the point, The primary reason is we refuse to use of "special stage" symbol represents the minor universe, the blank or use "other" symbol are both are more suitable than it.Capstalker (talk) 20:52, 22 January 2019 (EST)

And besides, just because SmashWiki isn't official doesn't mean we should be using the wrong symbol. Otherwise, we'd be using the unofficial NIWA symbols for Golden Sun and ARMS articles. The Special Stages symbol was a placeholder for a while because we didn't have any suitable symbol for the minor universes and a symbol was mandatory and you didn't want to make a bunch of fake symbols. And now Ultimate finally gave us a solution with a symbol used for Other series Primary Spirits in your party in World of Light and uses that same symbol for the music section. The ellipsis may not be in the previous Smash games, but the other "Other" symbol we used was never outside of Melee's Battlefield. Tell me, was Battlefield inspired by any other series? Because I don't think it was, and I don't think we should treat Battlefield as an "Other" property. Now that we got that ellipsis, I think the SpecialStages symbol should be used to refer to Battlefield (SSBM) alone so that there won't be any more confusion. I never liked that symbol. I really did want it removed from pages referring to "Other" games. And now, we have the perfect replacement. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:28, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I would like to clear up that I am not against using the three-dots symbol in the proper context, that being "for things that are labelled as such in SSBU". I am against using it outside that context, such as in previous games, and therefore am against having it be the default symbol for this template. Toomai Glittershine The Riotous 22:41, 22 January 2019 (EST)

Lip with Other Symbol & Special Stages Symbol.

Regardless if one's currently official or not, or because we've used one longer, which looks better? I created a comparison with Lip to have a visual representation to see which we think looks better, or worse. I'm not sure which I think looks better, but I am leaning towards one. What do you guys think? Wolff (talk) 23:17, 22 January 2019 (EST

I think that the one with the ellipsis looks much better. Not to mention, like eveyone said, it’s official. It doesn’t matter how long we’ve been using the special stages symbol, because aside from Toomai and Miles, everybody is agreeing that the ellipsis is more fitting. The general proposals thread has this exact issue wuestioned, if anybody wants to oppose or support. 99.203.11.237 23:19, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I said I'd contribute to this discussion, and even though it's late, I still will:

1. I have to side with Toomai here; I'm not against using the Other symbol altogether, I'm just against it being used in the wrong contexts.
2. I too think that it does not look like a symbol when paired next to other symbols, so using it as such is a bad idea in terms of design.
3. In response to you, Wolff, the one that looks better to me is, as you can probably guess, the second one.

Aidan, the Rurouni 23:24, 22 January 2019 (EST)

The ellipsis is the one I'm leaning towards, though not sure why. Isn't , "..." (dot, dot, dot) done when a character doesn't know what to say? In my understanding in this case, It'd mean we don't know which series it's from. I understand the concern of it being used in the wrong context, but I always understood that the symbol under the picture meant the series. Perhaps we should we have a poll of sorts to see which is preferred? Wolff (talk) 23:30, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I prefer the dots. If you don't want to use them for pre-Ultimate context, then why should we overuse the one that was only used for Battlefield in Melee? That doesn't make sense at all. The dots are far more appropriate. Even though Lip hasn't been seen with the ellipsis because she's a support spirit and the "Other" symbol is mysteriously missing from the Inventory, she is still grouped with the spirits that show the ellipsis in World of Light. And when Geno came as a Mii costume, he didn't officially have the mushroom symbol until he became a spirit in Ultimate, but we still used the mushroom on his page because we recognized him from Super Mario RPG. The Nintendog Assist Trophy has a paw print from Living Room when it was grouped under "Other" in the trophy gallery of Brawl and Smash 4 and the spririts in Ultimate, because Living Room originated from the same game the dog came from. Did a Nintendo Direct use the paw in the Assist Trophy presentations? I'll need to check. Has Dark Emperor used the crown symbol that Find Mii used? If we need a series symbol for everything, then the ellipsis used for "Other" in Ultimate is a better placeholder than the symbol used for one Smash original stage. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:09, 23 January 2019 (EST)

I like ellipsis because it can make me understand what it means is "other" and that "special stage" symbol are incomprehensible. But I not against not use it in the some pages of before Ultimate, although I don't think it makes sense. only 10 universe with have pages but no Spirits (Color TV-Game, GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Dig Dug, Xevious, Rally-X, Nintendo Labo, Tekken, Tales and Babylonian Castle Saga), I agree not use "other" symbol on these pages, but shouldn't use "special stage" symbol on these pages, As for other comprehensive pages should priority should be given to the latest game to use "other" symbol.--Capstalker (talk) 09:26, 23 January 2019 (EST)

Someone had mentioned the Metal Gear symbol change. For that case, all fighter pages (which are separate from the own character pages) use the symbol of that particular installment while stages, though few now, use the one for their most recent Smash appearance. In the case for the Battlefield (SSBM), couldn't it also use the Smash symbol?

In cases like the "Dark Emperor", like someone mentioned, they are given the symbol of the stage it's from. The "Dark Emperor" is listed as a Mii character in Ultimate, so why not have the Mii related series Street Pass, Tomodachi Life, Pilotwings, and Wii Sports have both the Mii symbol and their stage symbol, similar to how Shy Guy has both symbols for Mario and Yoshi? Before anyone says this would also need to be applied to Donkey Kong's, Yoshi's, and Wario's various series, they are each counted as separate from Mario's series in Smash, as well as Spirits.

The symbols are an artistic visual to show which series it is from. If technically classified as more than one in Smash, why not just use more than one? For the symbol used for pages of characters without a series symbol, we have more "freedom" to decide what we use as both symbols are only used in one instant each (one in Melee, and one in Ultimate). The main arguments I see are:

1. We've always used the previous symbol on the Wiki, so there is no need to change it.
2. The new symbol is official so we have to use it.

I mean, the reason given to me why we don't have the Ultimate roster and stages on the Wiki in their Ultimate order is that it would look different from how the previous installments' rosters are on the Wiki, but that is an entirely different discussion. I honestly wasn't sure which symbol I preferred for "other" series, which is why I made the comparison with Lip. Should we keep it the same, or change it? It wasn't until I saw the comparison did I think the ellipsis looked better. If a major/defining concern that replacing it manually would be too much of a hassle, I could replace them if no one else wants to? Wolff (talk) 16:01, 23 January 2019 (EST)

I don't think the pages with the Special Stages symbol should be using that symbol at all unless they were specifically referring to Battlefield (SSBM). So using both SpecialStages and the ellipsis with the slash in between is a dumber compromise. The Special Stages symbol has absolutely nothing to do with the minor universes. It was our unofficial placeholder for them. Ultimate used the ellipsis for the minor universes spirits, so I think the ellipsis should just replace the Special Stages symbol as our placeholder. My problem is not that the Special Stages symbol was never used outside of Melee. It was that it was specifically used for one Smash original stage and was never associated with any of the minor universes. Ultimate has given the ellipsis to so many universes. Devil World, Mach Rider, The Mysterious Marasame Castle, Shin Ogishima, Advance Wars, Yuyuki, Joy Mecha Fight, Kaero no Tame ni Kane wa Naru, Kousoko Card Battle, Battle Clash, Marvelous, Teleroboxer, Custom Robo, Sin & Punishment, Golden Sun, Magical Vacation, Tomato Adventure, Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Eternal Darkness, Giftpia, Baiten Kaitos Origins, Chibi-Robo, Jam with the Band, Brain Age, Chosuju Mecha, Hotel Dusk, Kurikin Nano Island Story, Archaic Sealed Heat, Soma Bringer, Fossil Fighters, Glory of Heracles, Captain Rainbow, Disaster: Day of Crisis, Takt of Magic, Zangeki no Reginleiv, The Last Story, Pandora's Tower, Pushmo, Sakura Samurai, Dillon's Rolling Western, Shovel Knight, Culdcept Revolt, Harmoknight, Nintendoji, Ever Oasis, Sushi Striker, Wonderful 101, Rayman, ARMS, Bomberman, Virtua Fighter, Shantae, Clu Clu Land, Famicom, 3D Hot Rally, Tetris, X, Panel de Pon, 1080, Big Brain Academy, Personal Trainer Cooking, Excite, Art Academy, Steel Diver, Freaky Forms, Style Savvy, Nintendo Land, Wii Party, NES Remix 2, Nintendo Badge Arcade, Code Name: STEAM, Tank Troopers and Snipperclips all only have ever used the ellipsis for their symbol. That's 72 different series to use the ellipsis which is about the size of Ultimate's infamously large roster where EVERYONE IS HERE!! With so many universes covered by the ellipsis, that should be our default symbol. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:04, 23 January 2019 (EST)

The usage of the symbols in Smash are also different. The ellipsis covers all that Sean mentioned in the "Others" in Ultimate. It was never stated why that Battlefield in Melee used a different symbol or what it represented. A Smash original doesn't make sense as the Final Destination in Melee used the Smash logo.

Currently (based on what I've seen on this thread so far), Wolff and SeanWheeler, as well as 184.181.102.188 and 99.203.11.237 say to change it, while Miles, Toomai, and Aidan, the Rurouni say to keep it, with Capstalker saying to not use either Symbol. 4 yes, 3 no, and 1 neither. How many votes across what time period would be needed for confirmation of changing it or not? Wolff (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2019 (EST)

You misunderstood, I support to change it.--Capstalker (talk) 05:30, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Also, what would happen if a new series in Smash was represented by a simplistic logo? Wario uses a "W" and Metal Gear now uses a "!". I don't think "..." looks weird or out of place when compared to them and vise-versa. Wolff (talk) 19:22, 23 January 2019 (EST)

It seems like there needs some more people to talk about this subject, although I am very late to the discussion. To be honest, I'm siding more with the ellipses, although I do understand why people still want the current symbol. The main reason is that it's better at symbolizing other than the current symbol, since when I first saw the current symbol, I had absolutely no idea what it represents. The ellipse, at least to me, does make it more obvious that the series represented is "other", since ellipses are used to omit things from sentences in grammar; it's just like "omitting" a universe that isn't represented by a character or a stage. That's how I view it, but honestly in the end I think it doesn't really matter too much. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:42, 23 January 2019 (EST)

So it looks like it's six to three in favor of the ellipsis. And those against the ellipsis are high-ranking admins. Man, this is a tough battle. SeanWheeler (talk) 11:57, 24 January 2019 (EST)

"How many votes across what time period would be needed for confirmation of changing it or not?"

SmashWiki is not vote-based, it is consensus-based. That said, more people would need to make their opinion clear if a consensus is to be reached. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:00, 24 January 2019 (EST)

How many more people need to make their opinion clear for a consensus to be reached? I support changing it to an ellipsis by the way. 47.176.58.194 12:07, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Then what would need to be clear consensus? A 2/3 kind of situation? The reason why I had asked voting wise was because I saw other pages reach their consensus depending on Support, Opposed, and Neutral answers. Could the conditions for a consensus be elaborated upon? Wolff (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2019 (EST)

We're putting our posts in the middle instead of the end? That can get confusing. Anyway, if there was a 2/3 situation, it looks like we would be winning 7 to 3. And the guys who want to keep the Special Stages have gotten their points thoroughly debunked. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:24, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Well, I think I've hammered my point on a dead horse. What I'm seeing from the admin side is they are not accepting an ellipsis, which seems more like personal bias than a valid argument, and that the ellipsis was exclusive to Ultimate but we all know what the Special Stages symbol was used for. There are a lot more people agreeing with me. We can all agree that an ellipsis means "symbol pending." Yeah, I think I've got the stronger argument here. SeanWheeler (talk) 12:38, 24 January 2019 (EST)

One of the main problems to this argument is that is when we put symbol|insert-series. symbol|other currently uses Melee's Battlefield symbol. But since Melee's Battlefield is the only one that uses that particular symbol, it shouldn't be a problem to reformat it to the ellipsis as the only change we'd need to make manually afterwards (I think) is Melee's Battlefield. Wolff (talk) 13:41, 24 January 2019 (EST)

And when I first made the change, I fixed all the template links that references Battlefield so that they are symbol|specialstages and nobody has undone those yet, so we are all set. I'm sorry I made a mess without consensus, but at least if we agreed on the ellipsis, there won't be a mess to clean up. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:28, 24 January 2019 (EST)

I'm seeing a large amount of entitlement from the three-dots side of the discussion here. Specifically, this stands out to me: "the guys who want to keep the Special Stages have gotten their points thoroughly debunked". How is that so? "It's official" and "I personally like the other one better" are not debunking any points (regardless of what those points might be).

In fact, there is still one important point that I don't believe has been brought up since it was first mentioned: some universes' music tracks (Ice Climber, Duck Hunt) are placed into the "other" category despite having the same amount of songs as the independent Game & Watch and Final Fantasy series (2). So the meaning of the three-dots symbol is not a cut-and-dry "some other series". Toomai Glittershine The Different 11:06, 26 January 2019 (EST)