Talk:Stale-move negation

Using Fox's Blaster 20 times in Training gives about 60% damage, if I remember. However, in Group Brawl, it only does 20. So don't tell me that I'm wrong. I will test knockback later if I feel up to it, as well as Melee. - Gargomon251 (talk) 06:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

OK I have done thorough testing on both Melee and Brawl.

Both of these tests were done using Luigi using Fire Jump Punch on Bowser, on the Jungle Japes stage, from the top center platform.

Melee

• In Melee, it seems that both training and standard modes use SMN. I didn't count the individual hits or knockback, but the initial FJP dealt 25%, while spamming it repeatedly dropped it to a minimum of 13%. The knockback seemed less, but I didn't actually attempt to measure it.

Brawl

• In Training Mode, I did four FJPs. Each one did exactly 25%, and the final one KOd Bowser at 100%.
• In Group Brawl, the damage went as follows: 26-22-21-18-16-15-14-13-12-11-11-11, with the final blow KOing bowser at 190%. Just to test, I again damaged Bowser to approximately 80%, SDed to reset my SMN, and then did another FJP, which, again, KOd bowser at a little more than 100%.

With a few deviations, it seems to drop in a gradually flattening curve until it stops at 11%. Either way, it seems much more pronounced than it did in Melee. I was suprised how much the knockback reduced. -Gargomon251 (talk) 09:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Lucasthalefty (talk) 08:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Sorry totally noob comment but the attacks have to hit the opponent for the negation to occur right? Im pretty sure thats the case but it should be stated in the article.

Stale-Move Negation not in the SSE

I've been doing some testing to calculate the HP of enemies in the SSE, an believe I've discovered that Stale-Move Negation does not apply there. (During the platforming segments, that is. It probably does apply during Smasher vs. Smasher battles, which I have yet to test.) My reasoning: A 2% move (the first hit of Kirby's neutral A) took 4 hits to KO a Goomba on Hard. If SMN applied, it would have done 6.98% damage, implying that Goombas on Hard have 6HP. However, a 7% move (Mario's u-tilt) did not KO a Goomba in one hit (it should have done 7.35% damage). As it is, it took 2 hits, while an 8% move (Mario's f-tilt) only took one hit.

So I'm pretty sure SMN isn't in the SSE unless you're facing another Smasher. But I'd like to have someone else comfirm it before I post it on the article. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 15:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Stale-Move Negation on item-based attacks

The article makes no mention of SMN in relation to items. Are they at all subject to SMN? If so, are all items treated the same? I don't think it would make much sense to track SMN for thrown-items, since most are single-use (With the exception of Mr.Saturn). Also, It would be counterproductive to apply SMN to items such as the Super Scope, Fan and Ray Gun that are all designed to be spammed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.77.45.237 (talk • contribs) {{{2}}}

Tested this with Beam Sword. Neutral A does indeed use SMN. Thrown beam swords as well. Regardless of if it's the same sword or you pick up a new one. - Gargomon251 (talk) 20:25, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Even the Ray Gun has this identical effect. - Gargomon251 (talk) 20:27, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Controversy in Brawl

I honestly find that stale move negation is a case of misblaming Brawl for the general calculations alone at least. Brawl upped the move count by only one move, but in comparison to Melee, the range of damage percentage is still not that much different: 55% to 100% for Melee, 50% to 105% for Brawl. It's still desirable to save up moves, which is why Link doesn't effortlessly massacre 15 Minute Melee without B moves or Screw Attack abuse, even with Up Tilt--not that I'm complaining, for the record, since it does encourage move variety with him. Now I'm probably missing something if it even causes more problems in Brawl, but the fact is that Brawl didn't make a direct change here.

For the record, I think the negation should be a subtraction factor rather than percentage based. This would weaken low power attacks so as to stop them from being spammable, and bolster high power attacks that typically have some drawback preventing them from managing a hit. For the standard, probably have Link more or less unaffected by the calculations change. Master Knight DH (talk) 18:08, 9 October 2011 (EDT)