Forum:Brawl+ Discussion

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This. Discuss please.

Also, it is NOT Melee 2.0. NO. NO NO NO. There are hacks out there that can be used to turn Brawl into a Melee 2.0-ish game, but Brawl+ is not the same thing. NO. Shade487z 13:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Hm.. Actually, I've read the article and... many (just about 99% ^^) of the listed changes are taken from Melee. Who should I trust : Me or You disclaimers ? I think I should stay on the fact that Brawl+ is Melee 2.0 ;) Metalink187 (talk) 15:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's think about that for a second, shall we? I could understand if the Wavedashing and L-Cancel codes were still implemented, but a lot of stuff added to Brawl+ could also be found in SSB64. Hitstun, more gravity, faster speed...Melee may have these features, but Melee's also the more competitive game. So if they're trying to make Brawl+ more competitive, then it only makes sense that those features would obviously be present. If they were trying to make a Melee 2.0, I can imagine many other changes that would be present...

• Obviously, the Wavedashing and L-Canceling would still be back in
• You couldn't grab the ledge while facing away
• They'd try to change Falco back to his Melee self
• They'd de-gay Final Destination's ledges
• They would try to change the characters to match Melee's tier list. Captain Falcon may finally be good like he was in Melee, but that's more of an attempt to make him actually tourney-viable than it is to make him a Melee-esque character. In Brawl+, the roster is becoming BALANCED.

Let's not forget something else that made top-level competition so skill-oriented in Melee: Shine Cancel. Surely anyone trying to emulate Melee would put that in there.

Not only that, but that article's far from perfect. I should know, I wrote it. :/ Shade487z 18:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Brawl+ may not be Melee 2.0, but the fact that a bunch of the edits re-implement things that were in Melee is enough to convince anyone who doesn't like the idea.

As for my opinion on it...I don't really care. If people want to mess with their own stuff, that's fine with me. All I can hope for is that Nintendo doesn't follow their lead and make the next Smash Bros. more competitive - they may be the most vocal fans, but they are in the minority. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 15:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Multiplayer games are meant to be competitive. That's one of the very definitions of the word. Shade487z 18:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It's okay for a game to have a level of competitiveness. But once people start playing it for fame and money, then it gets a lot more important for a game to be "fair" and "balanced". And for good reason; you don't want freak accidents to determine who gets more prestige and cash. The thing is, to people who don't participate in tournaments and just play for fun (which is the majority), decreasing the craziness factor of a game is considered "less fun". Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 19:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

^w00t I'm in the majority!L33t Silvie ^{I see wat u did thar...} 19:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

They're called Items and crazy stages. Shade487z 20:37, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

All items. Pichu only. Brinstar Depths. Fun is more important than tournament stuff. I'd rather have fun than win. So to people who care only about winning these games -- you're missing the point. (P.S. I don't care if others hack, but I frown on its usage when I'm playing.) Miles (talk) 22:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

@Shade: If the Brawl+ article is correct, the aforementioned "crazy stages" are frozen, essentially destroying craziness and anything that sets it apart from any other tournament-legal stage, gameplay-wise.

@Miles: THANK YOU! Someone who understands!L33t Silvie ^{I see wat u did thar...} 00:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Only the stages that actually have a default shape that would make for a good competitive stage were frozen. Mushroomy Kingdom: untouched. Temple: untouched. Flat Zone 2: untouched. Hanenbow: untouched. Actually, I see Spear Pillar being turned back into a crazy stage eventually. Those ceiling spikes are the same reason Skyworld is banned from competitive play, and you can't change that in Brawl+ unless they were to, say, make the hole that randomly appears in the center a permanent effect. Highly unlikely though. Shade487z 01:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

From my understanding, Brawl+ isn't necessarily Melee 2.0 but it is more like Melee that vBrawl is. Y462 (T • C • E ) 00:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Everyone who is talking about "fun" is missing the point here, or are completely self-centered. You see, I find Brawl+ much more "fun" than regular Brawl. I don't really give a damn if Nintendo didn't design the game that way because, in my opinion, Nintendo's physics system and other things pretty much suck compared to the hacks. I also don't care if you disagree with me, as "fun" is a subjective variable anyway. Also, to anyone who has some anecdotal evidence about how "most" people who play Smash don't care at all about competition, I can counter with countless anecdotes (and non-anecdotal, and therefore superior, evidence) to the contrary. As for the actual discussion of Brawl+, what exactly are you wanting discussion on? The different physics, the changes to characters, a possible tier list...? Give me something to go on and I'm happy to discuss in between composing. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

This was meant for people to post their opinions on the project, its progress, what they like/dislike about it, a place to ask around if curious about certain features not listed in the article, etc. It's also a great place for me to round up all the people who dislike the game without actually legit reasons and show them which of their assumptions are false and which are true. Catch my drift? Shade487z 02:30, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

All right, start actual discussion on content: hitstun! Personally, being much better at Brawl than Melee, I prefer a lower hitstun than Melee has, but not quite as low as Brawl (I imagine between +4-8%, I haven't actually tried it). If anyone's geeky enough to listen to the SMYN podcasts, you may know that at +10% hitstun, C Falc can infinite almost any character with SHFFL'd U-Airs. Now, IMO, that's not exactly what you'd call fair. Opinions? (Also, is there any news about Homebrew being compatible with the menu version 4.0? I upgraded before I heard about Brawl+) Meta-Kirb (talk) 01:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

According to the Brawl+ nightly builds site, hitstun was changed from Brawl's .48 to .4865. That doesn't sound like much but it's actually a very noticeable change, as seen by the true combos. I think it could use a little more hitstun but not much. As far as getting Brawl+ with 4.0, go search for something called banner bomb. It's not homebrew but it does have Gecko, which is what you really need. I don't know much about it myself because got Homebrew back when the latest version was 3.whatever that number was. Shade487z 02:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Why are "true combos" so important? Not being a tournament nut, I have no idea how it's good for a metagame to have inescapable combos. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 13:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

First off, doing true combos are hella satisfying. Second, true combos allow for much more damage to be inflicted on an opponent without the risk of counterattack, and many combos have finishers that can usually guarantee a KO. In vBrawl, there's almost always a way to break out of combos, so the risk of being counterattacked is always eminent. That's why vBrawl has been called things like "A camp-fest" or "a game of tag". Shade487z 19:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe that's why I've been losing so much recently. I might be overly aggressive. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 20:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Tier list

This are minor predictions for the tier list for brawl+. Of course, I haven't used all of the characters, but I have a general idea as to what each character is like.

• MK and Snake are still high
• Falco goes down because his chaingrab is a lot different now
• Same for DDD
• Game and Watch may move up because of DD and Falco going down
• Marth moves up because of a real Ken Combo
• I really don't know about Diddy
• Wario moves up for combos
• ROB stays
• Lucario moves up because he no longer is helpless after Extremespeed so can attack edge guarders, and it goes farther
• I don't know about Olimar
• Pikachu can juggle with his Up aerial, so he may go up
• Kirby moves down because others can combo too now
• I don't know about DK
• Icies can still CG, so they may move
• ZSS moves down
• Tink stays
• Pit goes down
• Peach goes up
• I don't know about Wolf
• Weegee goes up
• Zelda goes up slightly
• Bowser goes down(Fire Fsmash can't save you now)
• Fox goes up
• Sheik goes up
• Ike goes up
• Mario stays
• Lucas stays
• Ness goes up(No helpless if somebody interrupts PK thunder projectile, win)
• Samus stays
• Sonic goes up
• Trainer goes down
• Squirtle gets mid-high
• Ivy gets low-mid
• Charizard gets mid
• Yoshi stays
• Link stays
• Jiggly goes up
• Ganondorf goes up
• Falcon goes way up

so CH, Shade, and Semi feel free to argue.Smoreking^(T) _(c) 23:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Ike? Moving up? Sweeeeeeeeeeet...L33t Silvie ^{I see wat u did thar...} 00:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ike can actually combo in brawl+. Any other questions?Smoreking^(T) _(c) 01:14, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Pit going down and Peach going up. Reasoning? - GalaxiaD ^Talk 01:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Pit's easily countered and Peach can combo even more now.Smoreking^(T) _(c) 01:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and Peach can kill now. Thats why she was as low as she was in vBrawl. JtM =^] (talk) 01:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed.Smoreking^(T) _(c) 01:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

One of the goals behind B+ is to make all characters tourney-viable and kinda remove the need for tiers. That's all I'm saying. Shade487z 04:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, you know there's bound to be a tier anyways.Smoreking^(T) _(c) 12:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

There will always be tiers, but the spread between the characters in Brawl+ is likely to be much smaller than in Brawl. I wouldn't be surprised if they did come up with a Brawl+ tier list with only three categories: "slightly better," "standard," and "slightly worse." Meta-Kirb (talk) 14:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and Game and Watch defenitely won't go up. Most people (and I) beleive that he is just too light and one combo on him will lose his stock. He also has to be able to predict very well just to land a samsh attack.JtM =^] (talk) 15:53, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

He's a glass cannon with great combo potential. They even deliberately made his aerials even more broken than in vBrawl, GHN said so himself. He can take stocks just as fast as he loses them, if not faster. Plus, his weight actually saves him from some combos. Not saying he's gonna skyrocket but he'll rise a little for sure. Shade487z 16:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

But hes not a glass cannon because he relies solely on tech chases. Do you really think that a player at high damage is just gonna leave them selves open for a smash? Of course not. His aerials may be broken, but just making a wall of bairs or nairs isn't gonna help you out much when it comes to killing. As anyone who has experience in vB and B+ metagame (Like Hylian) tand they will tell you GnW is very iffy in B+. His weight MAY save you from SOME combos, but if you get hit, you better know how to SDI like a pro because he gets comboed much easier than you think. He also can't live long past 100% because bucket braking got removed due to higher hitstun. And the player would have to get really campy to survive and just put damage on the opponent, which is what B+ creators wanted to remove. Killing was his main problem in vB and it hasn't changed at all since B+ was made. JtM =^] (talk) 18:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

You're talking. About WoP's with aerials. Not being a legit kill tactic. When that's what Jiggs was born to do. GnW can do it too, but he's got ground combos to help too. And you say his combo's flaws are the fact that they're tech-dependent...does that stop SilentSpectre from doing his combos? Shade487z 20:23, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Not saying its not a legit kill tactic, i'm saying is very situational and only works at low %s and why would an opponent be off stage at low percents. By tech dependant, I'm guessing you mean tech chasing? Yeah, SS can do his combos, but its Falcon and his moveset was made for that kinda thing, and he has a reliable ending kill move (the knee) while GnWs moveset wasnt made for that, but more as a wall and he doesnt have a kill move to end a combo tech chase. his fair is his best and it only kills past 100% when edgeguarding. JtM =^] (talk) 01:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Getting an opponent offstage at low % isn't as hard as you're making it out to be. Now, LAUNCHING them offstage would be tough, but there are plenty of other methods to set them up for an easy WoP at low %. The Dthrow > Dsmash combo is still in Brawl+ and works great for that purpose. Yes, the Dsmash is avoidable via teching, but how often do you see people actually landing that tech? Not often. Shade487z 03:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, as long as someone knows it's GnW's best throw, then they auto shield at the right time, because they know its an awesome throw and tech chases easily. JtM =^] (talk) 03:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I only have one question, why did they start actually changing Captain falcon? With all the other changes alone, he's already a great character(Mid tier at least.). Up air combo's to Knee's are pretty much guaranteed to knock a stock off. - Hatake91 (talk) 18:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

ATTN: Brawl+ Critics

If you're one of the people who refuse to try Brawl+ but still hate it, I have something you should read. Enjoy. Shade487z 17:58, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

My opinion

Well, its a good idea. I'm reading the Brawl+ page right now.

• No random tripping. Certain moves and bananas will still trip.

The best part. Why was tripping in there in the first place?

• A new character select screen with independent icons for Zelda, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and all Pokémon Trainer Pokémon.

Not a bad idea, makes it more convinient.

• Decrease of hitlag in long hitlag moves, such as Captain Falcon's sweetspotted forward aerial and Marth tipped forward smash.

Bad idea. This is one of the parts of the strategy, and it fits into character balancing. I'd make this stay, especially on the stronger moves.

• Fully independent versions of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, though Pokemon Trainer can still be selected. For the stand-alone characters, Stamina has been removed, and the Pokemon will not cycle upon revival or via Pokemon Change. The Pokemon Trainer will not appear in the background or the victory screen if players choose to play an independent Pokemon.

Good idea, but I don't know why you need to get rid of the Trainer.

• L-canceling (Auto-cancel) (otherwise known as ALR or Aerial Lag Reduction).

NO!!! You must suffer the consequences of missing an attack.

• Dash cancel. -Crouch to cancel a dash.

Why? You must suffer the consequences of dashing! You might as well just dash everywhere!

• No replay time limit. Replay icon still does not appear if the game is longer than three minutes, but if Z is pressed the replay may be saved normally.

Sounds like it would cause a crash.

• Shield during dash dance.

I thought you could already do this? Oh yeah, you skid. Does that mean you can shield while skidding? Meh, I like it.

• No Stale Move Negation.

Why would you even consider this? Move Decay is GENIOUS. Stops spamming, and it adds the strategy of keeping moves fresh.

• Stage freezing. -Stops all stage movement, potentially allowing for more neutral stages. Only applies for:
  • Luigi's Mansion - mansion is always destroyed and platforms never disappear
  • WarioWare, Inc. - stage is always in original form
  • Spear Pillar - Dialga, Palkia, and Cresselia stop appearing all together, removing stage hazards
  • Pokemon Stadium 2 - Stage does not change forms

I dunno about the Pokemon Stadium, and why is Luigis mansion always destroyed? I'd personally just keep the platforms permanent/get rid of them.

• No Auto sweetspot ledges.

Wait, does this mean that everyone sweet spots from the same distance? I've always thought that you should have to hit the grab button to grab the ledge, but that'd be hard to code.

• Lag-less edges.

Call me a n00b, but I'm not sure what you mean here. No lag upon grabbing a ledge?

• MAD (Melee air dodge), which enables Wavedashing. (This is not in the standard "Brawl Plussery," but can be added in using certain codes.)

Hate. Wave dashing=fail

• Incorporates the File Replacement Code used in downloading texture hacks, meaning Brawl+ users can easily download pre-made textures with no extra codes required.

Cool.

• The Online Practice Stage is now loaded whenever New Pork City is selected. (Versus Mode only)

Why New Pork City? Couldn't you have hacked in an icon for it? You could've two icons for NPC, but one of them loads up the practic stage (since the practice stage doesn't have an icon)

Gameplay Tweaks

• Character balancing. Captain Falcon, for example, has been significantly improved.

Haven't read through all the changes yet, but I like this part.

• Faster overall gameplay speed.

Good, very good.

• Increased Falling Speed.

Not good. I like air battles.

• Increased hitstun, allowing for truly inescapable combos.

Good good.

• Tech window enlarged.

Bad. This is one of the skills of Brawl that you need to have.

• Greater window to dash dance.

What window? Are you refering to how quickly your character turns around?

• Perfect shield window decreased.

Good.

• Increased Shield Stun, meaning a character hit while using their shield is forced to stay shielded for a longer amount of time.

Bad. No counterattacks this way.

• Many moves received slight alterations (e.g.: Bowser's forward smash now produces a fire effect on contact with the opponent and Wizard's Foot gives another jump for recovery).

Once again, I'm gonna need to check these alterations.

Oh, and on the subject of combos, you should make characters heavier, so that KOs happen at around 200-300% instead of 100%. Then there'd be more comboing your opponent. You could also make characters accelerate to the knockback speed of an attack instead of simply going straigh to it (acceleration speed might vary), allowing you a brief window while your opponent is going slow to hit them again. Just a thought. Paradox Juice (talk) 00:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

While I don't mind most of these ideas, I seriously question the Wizard's Foot extra jump. Why? It was an oops in Melee. Why are people using a mistake to make characters better? They might as well put back in Bowser's flame cancel, or give the same "fix" to Falcon. Toomai Glittershine {{subst:#switch:{{subst:#expr:{{subst:#time:U}} mod 68}} |0=The Altruistic |1=The Aurum |2=The Awesome |3=Da Bess |4=The Bold |5=Da Bomb |6=The Boss |7=The Brass |8=The Brazen |9=The Breegull |10=The Celeritous |11=The Chilled |12=The Chronicler |13=The Cloronic |14=The Different |15=The Dispenser |16=The Eggster |17=The Emissary |18=The Engineer |19=The Free |20=The Frivolous |21=The Ghostbuster |22=The Glow |23=The Golden |24=Le Grand Fromage |25=The Hammer |26=The Honcho |27=The Incomperable |28=The Incomprehensible |29=The Inconceivable |30=The Indescribable |31=The Interspacial |32=The Irrepressible |33=The Jiggy |34=The Keymaster |35=The Labbie |36=The Loony |37=The Metroid |38=The Multifaceted |39=The Non-Toxic |40=The Obfuscating |41=The Orchestral |42=The Pan-Galactic |43=El Pollo |44=The Polychromatic |45=The Prismatic |46=The Producer |47=The Quiet |48=The Quintonic |49=The Rainbow |50=The Researcher |51=The Resolute |52=The Riotous |53=The Sharp |54=The SMASH-GINEER |55=The Spark |56=The Spectrum |57=The Sphere |58=The Steppin' |59=The Superlative |60=The Trumpeteer |61=The Undirigible |62=The Victorious |63=The Wacko |64=The Xanthic |65=The Yellow |66=The Yoshi |67=The Zesty |}} cntrbs 01:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Ganondorf didn't get as buffed as CF did thanks to B+ physics, so this does give him at least a little more help. Shade487z 02:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

it sounds cool but why didnt they do anything about mk and snake?i mean my brother(who sucks) mains snake he doesnt shield never uses tilts specials or up and down smash basicly he uses that combo on me until i die or pulls out a bazooka when im not lookin snake was just one of those people who great theyre broken lets beat up captain falcon but why is he in there? i say if they need a third party character look at star wars or something and sonics an idiot to BEN SEDAI

I have an interesting idea (that is sure to fail). We can have a new mode where the stickers you collect can actually be in effect. You can save up to 2 for each chaacter, and there are no item stickers allowed! What do you think? Learner4 (talk) 14:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

That would be neat, and would bring in a Pokemon-style preparation element to the gameplay. However, if I understand Brawl's dual-layer disc physics correctly, it cannot be done. Stickers are part of the SSE, while all multiplayer data is on the disc's other half. Toomai Glittershine {{subst:#switch:{{subst:#expr:{{subst:#time:U}} mod 68}}

|0=The Altruistic |1=The Aurum |2=The Awesome |3=Da Bess |4=The Bold |5=Da Bomb |6=The Boss |7=The Brass |8=The Brazen |9=The Breegull |10=The Celeritous |11=The Chilled |12=The Chronicler |13=The Cloronic |14=The Different |15=The Dispenser |16=The Eggster |17=The Emissary |18=The Engineer |19=The Free |20=The Frivolous |21=The Ghostbuster |22=The Glow |23=The Golden |24=Le Grand Fromage |25=The Hammer |26=The Honcho |27=The Incomperable |28=The Incomprehensible |29=The Inconceivable |30=The Indescribable |31=The Interspacial |32=The Irrepressible |33=The Jiggy |34=The Keymaster |35=The Labbie |36=The Loony |37=The Metroid |38=The Multifaceted |39=The Non-Toxic |40=The Obfuscating |41=The Orchestral |42=The Pan-Galactic |43=El Pollo |44=The Polychromatic |45=The Prismatic |46=The Producer |47=The Quiet |48=The Quintonic |49=The Rainbow |50=The Researcher |51=The Resolute |52=The Riotous |53=The Sharp |54=The SMASH-GINEER |55=The Spark |56=The Spectrum |57=The Sphere |58=The Steppin' |59=The Superlative |60=The Trumpeteer |61=The Undirigible |62=The Victorious |63=The Wacko |64=The Xanthic |65=The Yellow |66=The Yoshi |67=The Zesty |}} cntrbs 17:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)