User talk:Defiant Elements/Archive 1

With all due respect...

With all due respect, I have a bit of a problem with you coming in here, reading up on what can only be a minute part of this entire controversy, and then criticizing the way it has been handled based on your position as a bureaucrat. Our sysops work tirelessly, through badgering, abuse, and personal attack, to keep this a clean, informative, and fun community. This particular controversy was admittedly not worked out as best as it could have, but you seem to be trying to undermine their competency, dedication, and ability by presuming that their 'victims' were not at fault sufficient to justify their punishment. The fact of the matter is, their initial infractions were not sufficient. It was the accompanying responses to the initial punishments that were despicable and deserving of the bans. Please refrain from vocal critique until you know and understand the entire picture. Semicolon (talk) 13:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

A coupla things. Not to bandy semantics with you, but I wasn't based my critique on my position as a Bureaucrat, I was basing it on personal experience from the perspective of an outsider. On a related note, I purposefully made it clear that my post was made on the basis of what an "outsider" would see, and that context is vitally important to understanding my post; I'm well aware that I don't have the full picture; instead, I'm presenting the picture that an outsider would see. I don't doubt that many of the sysops are excellent, nor do I doubt they take a lot of abuse; heck, I've been threatened with a lawsuit for banning someone as a Sysop because the ban was supported by CheckUser. And it's not an attempt to undermine them either, though I can see with little difficulty why it might come off as such. As I said, I have no stake in the success of this community, but I felt obligated to post because I saw a problem that had not, as far as I could tell, been thoroughly addressed elsewhere in the hopes that some good might come of it. My post may come off as strident or rabble-rousing -- indeed, I expected people might think that -- but that was not my intention. However, I presumed nothing. Indeed, if you read my first post you'll see that I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that the bans themselves were justified, but the manner in which the sysops responded/handled themselves is at least as much, if not more of a problem than the bans. In truth, I don't expect anything to come of my post, but I made the effort because I thought that perhaps it would give people something to think about. Defiant Elements 18:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

In that case I would suppose we are in agreement. Semicolon (talk) 19:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreement about...? – Defiant Elements 19:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The the manner in which this fiasco was handled was unfortunate. However, I would like to make something clear. We here at SmashWiki do not need to be rescued. We do not need direct intervention from administrators and bureaucrats from other wikis. We do not need your patronization. Your perspective may have assisted, and that was, I believe what you in particular were trying to do. However, we have good sysops and a good community. This isn't an unprecedented event; if anything, it has been blown way out of proportion and an argument could have been made for you and the other users from foreign wikias 'butting into our business'. It is, in fact, the opinion of the majority of active sysops that the permabans should be removed. We will settle this dispute ourselves. The bottom line is that the site is still up, we still have active contributing users goaled toward the continued excellence of the wiki, and it sites continues to serve the community. In the end, that is the only thing that matters, and there's no argument for the contrary. Semicolon (talk) 19:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Judging by what I've seen, and No, I have not read all of every contribution on this wiki, the sysops on this wiki are bad at being such. They don't seem to understand that, if a majority of users thinks that its unfair, than they're not doing their job right. Sysops are thinking "Mkay, that guy insulted me, so I'mma ban him for 2 weeks". Insulting somone consistantly for 2 weeks and taking every snide oppertunity present I could understand their ban for 2 weeks.. for a couple of mild insults, or perhaps just a decleration that they don't like the way that its run, you wouldn't get a one hour ban- never mind a 2 week one. The vandals are getting the same ban-time as people who are insulting others, which is just dumb. "However, we have good sysops and a good community." - and I quote; "lolurite". In short? Your sysops suck. Replace them. I'm gonna get a ban for stating this, but hey, I don't think I was planning on doing much anyway. Just came for the epicness, and stayed to try to point out the flaws. I quite like your "we dont need your help GTFO". Pretty funny.. :] --

Warwick

19:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for proving my 'We don't need your help' line. You sir, possess a lack of propriety that is, as you say, epic. We could never use the help of someone who demeans the efforts of hardest workers. What you are discussing is poor behavior by a single sysop, and your generalization is doubtless an indication of your knowledge on the subject. Your comments are ignorant and they are offensive. You, sir, are what is known as a 'troll'. Trolls get what they deserve, generally. You clearly have no idea what went on, and I won't outline it for you, because you likely possess a mental faculty that could barely get you through the first characters in this response. Leave for good. Semicolon (talk) 19:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

ur dum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.142.40.185 (talk • contribs)

wakaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Lord of all tyria (talk) 19:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this the community that you are boasting about? Um...lol. Who's dumber, the guy who has a clear command of english, or the guy who says 'ur dum' or 'wakaaa...etc.' Seriously, this is really why we don't need your help. You guys brought these...contributers...here, and now you need to take them back. I'm starting to think you guys have made the problem worse by coming here and lecturing us and bringing all of your riff-raff along. In fact, I'm sure of it. Please leave. Semicolon (talk) 19:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Riff-raff? I doubt with one contribution I have lessened the ability of this wiki to document Smash Bros. Apparantly you misused ipso facto somewhere by the way. Lord of all tyria (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. 'Ipso facto' is latin to mean, literally, the deed itself from the ablative of the intensive pronoun ipse, ipsa, ipsum and factum, -i. Since the ablative infers a preposition, it could mean within [the deed]. Translated into colloquial English, it can be found to translate as 'therefore'. Literally, it would mean, in context, "Any comparison drawn is a fallacy and within itself invalid." So no, it's used correctly. Semicolon (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

riff-raffed your mom last night

edit conflict First of all, don't you think it's just a little hypocritical to generalize the GWiki community based on three people, none of whom are Sysops. Yes, yes, I know sarcasm fails on the internet and isn't particularly helpful either, but really, come on! They're just trying to be funny/amusing/etc., they all have a perfectly good grasp of the English language. Not to mention that I didn't "bring" them here, they came of their own accord when they saw what was goin' on. As to your penultimate point, again, I'll thank you not to generalize, and, as to your final point, I'll leave only when I'm convinced that trying to do some good is hopeless. Good day. – Defiant Elements 19:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

No, because they are a sample from which a logical inference may be based. An inference may be incorrect, but it does not disqualify my opinion, and for the record I have been presented with several examples of the behavior of your members. None have been positive. Their attempts at humor are, in fact, simple badgering which is not constructive and counter to the excellence we strive for here at SmashWiki. You are partly responsible for their arrival, and you appear to be the entity with the most authority so I am holding you responsible for their behavior, and find it incredibly ironic that they would mock our community while being so negative. If you feel like this is unfair, please explain. For my penultimate, I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about you and your friends from other wikis. You guys coming here and trying to change things when the original problem has been resolved. You're perpetuating a moot point. And for my final, I do hope that you realize that you're inflicting more harm than proposed good. Semicolon (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Your response makes me lol. Yup, I'm a troll. A troll, may I add, with a better grip on the English language than you have. I've read through whats going on, I've heard accounts from both DE and SC. Through the single "Thanks for proving my 'we dont need your help' line" sentance, you've just proved that you fail. You're hardly the hardest of workers. I've looked through the block log, and ALL of the bans given have been pretty much crap. LolUrFunny. Y'know what, though? I'm not really a troll. I'm a cynic, and I find other peoples annoyance amusing, but I try to help in my asshat way. Either you can pay attention, and stop pretending that you're still in happy-go-lucky-happy-wiki-with-awesome-sysops-that-doesnt-fail-land, or you can continue being foolish, and pretend that everything is happy, and your sysops do understand what it is to be a sysop. "Ooh, you're arguing with me.. BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK!". Oh, and apologies DE and Loat, I went to eat dinner. EDIT: The English language comment was uncalled for. Sorry. --User:Warwick 20:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Another factor is, telling me to leave is generally, by your standards, a personal attack, since its as good as saying "GTFO". OMG, BANBANBAN!. I don't care what you think, to be honest, I'm just putting this up because I'm bored, and the fact is that you need to get a grip. This is a wiki. Oh, wait, wikiz r srs bsns. I've read through what's happened, so I think I've got a good enough account to make a judgment. As well as this, I've read through the ban log- Which actually made me laugh for about 5 mins. Thanks for that, t'was amusing. Read through the rest, 'cause later on I said that I'm not really a troll anymore, which is pretty much true. I'm right, you're wrong, so lets cut the crap, mkay? Miles, I don't care about what any of you think, and I'm not giving this wiki a reputation of any sort that it doesn't deserve. Get better admins, mkay? Read the "I'm right, you're wrong" part again. Jeez, I'm starting to sound like a troll again. Guess wikiz r srs bsns. --Warwick 20:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Also as an add-on to the comment that you added (strangely above my comment, but hey, perhaps you have some strange customs on this wiki), I quote: "Their attempts at humor are, in fact, simple badgering which is not constructive and counter to the excellence we strive for here at SmashWiki." - That makes me laugh. The "Excellence we strive for here at SmashWiki" especially. But thats off the point. It's not your place to hold DE responsible, I came here after overhearing somthing, so it has nothing to do with DE, nor loat. The original problem has, evidently, not been resolved, because the problems with the admins that don't have a clue what adminship involves are still admins. Basically, it comes down to this: "You insulted me. You get 2 weeks ban. Oh, you vandalised that person who insulted me's userpage. You're gonna get a 1 hour ban". Thats what my problem is. --Warwick 20:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Look, kid, I honestly don't care about the wiki. I'm upset because you're all trying to come in here and you're insulting me and you're insulting my friend who works as a sysop on this wiki and he's good at it. He works hard and honestly just wants to keep it from falling apart, and keep it as a good place for people to learn about Smash. He isn't wrong on any of his bans; you are merely ignorant. You can talk all about the ban log, but that is a very, very small part of this giant complicated puzzle, and unless you've read every talk page and every post on the forums of the Cult of Personality, then you're ignorant to this. You've made this personal with your constant badgering and displays of ignorance, and it turns out I'm stubborn enough to stick around and tell you how wrong you are each and every time. You don't have a good understanding of this, you don't have the knowledge of what happened, you have a ban log and third hand accounts. You're being ignorant, incoherent, and silly. You're being quite vocal about your crude and base opinions, and I don't like it. You openly admit you're being a troll and that you have nothing to add. -- I highly doubt your command is better. I am a linguistics and communication major with a minor in Latin. I wasn't talking about me in respect to working hard. I was speaking for our sysops. If you think they're crap, you're half right. And you are a troll, by your own admission. A troll, according to UrbanDictionary, is "One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevance to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue." That's you, ace. As far as the sysops are concerned, you are ignorant. You weren't around, you haven't seen everything, you've only heard the story from two people who weren't around for it either, and who, frankly, are poorly informed on the matter at hand. Meaning you have at best a third-hand account. Seriously, leave. You're not helping. You can help by leaving. So do it. Semicolon (talk) 20:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm severely disappointed at the kind of reputation people like Warwick and Lordofalltyria give this wiki. As a semi-regular contributor to this site, I'm well aware of its problems, but I know that bickering isn't going to get any of us anywhere. What happened to this site lately, anyway? When I joined Smashwiki in April, it was a primarily civilized place, but in the last week and a half, crews have disbanded, sysops are banning for trivial reasons and the whole place has fallen into a cycle of "he said, she said" where nobody's opinions are respected and the whole site is falling to pieces. Can't we get back to the whole point of this wiki and stop arguing? Miles.oppenheimer (talk) 20:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Two things happened. The kids came, and Randall exploded. The kids got on Randall's nerves and he started banning them for no good reason. When the bans expired, they came back and exhibited behavior that actually deserved banning. Randall banned them permanently. They shouldn't have been permanently banned, and that's why C-Hawk wants to remove the permabands and make them only a couple weeks. Then the foreigners came. They started carping about policies and speaking like they understand what happened and saying its the fault of all the sysops and criticizing and belittling the community. Presently, they are the problem. When they leave, we can resume with projects and making the wiki better. Semicolon (talk) 20:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

And what happens if they don't leave? Public wiki is public. 99.142.40.185 20:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm counting on the inherent apathy of mankind. Semicolon (talk) 20:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you'd be surprised. I started on GWW under much the same auspices and I've been there for a little under a year now. – Defiant Elements 20:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This is unfortunate. Semicolon (talk) 20:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Honestly? Even if we are a problem, we're not the problem (the problem predates us by a mile and half), and even if we were to leave right now, never to return again, you'd still have a problem. You're not gonna be able to get back to anything until you actually resolve the real issues, and aside from my own posts, I've seen no real attempt at resolution. Even if you were to overturn the bans, you'd still have a problem. On a related note, might I respectfully suggest that you read up on the term "red herring"? Anywho, neither SC nor I have ever suggested that the fault lay with all the Sysops (in fact, I specifically said otherwise), so unless you're only talking about Warwick, etc., your statement is simply erroneous, not to mention that I've never said a word about the community at large here, much less to criticize and belittle it. I understand that you're becoming increasingly distraught, but honestly? – Defiant Elements 20:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Without addressing point by point, if the problem predates you, why are you here? If the problem isn't with all the sysops, why are you here? What problem do we have that you can fix? Perhaps we have a renegade sysop. Fine. Contact wikia. That's not your problem. I guess my biggest problem here is that I don't see a problem that you can fix, and I see plenty that you can make worse. Semicolon (talk) 20:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

So Randall lost his temper. Defiant Elements is right: "kids" aren't necessarily a problem; I'm 15 but you can feel free to check my edits; I'm a hardworking member of the SmashWiki community. I would also argue, Semicolon, that you have lost your temper as well. Whining at vandals to leave isn't going to get them to. Every wiki has vandal problems. No, a better course of action is to ignore irrelevent edits of theirs and remove truly problematic ones. Miles.oppenheimer (talk) 20:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandals?! Sir, you have wounded me! Your words cut me to the quick! Trolls, perhaps. But vandals, never! 99.142.40.185 20:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't get it, Miles- we're not vandals, we're trying to help this wiki. Trolls, perhaps, because we're getting pissed off with arguing with a brick wall. Semi, you're slightly crossing the line, I've tried to stop myself from openly insulting you, but hey, I guess if you want to be childish and deteriorate this into a cussing match where you continuously call me ignorant and I continuously call you stupid, thats fine with me, but I'm going to be going to sleep in a while, so you might want to start talking to that brick wall over there, mkay? It should have about the same amount of general intelligence that you do. You say that your friend randal lost his temper, but hes a hardworking member and he deserves to be a sysop- The point is this: The factor of BEING a good sysop is that you can use your ban/prot/del powers to a proper use. Which several of the people, the ban reasons, and the contributions of those who have been banned, really didn't deserve to be banned, at ALL, never mind a full two week ban. But hey, what do I know? According to you, I'm just a silly little person whose come in and has no idea whats going on (LOLRONG). Stop going on about how incompetant we are, get out of happy land, and open your eyes. Jeez, its trying to reason with somone with the brains of a brick wall, eh? To be truthful, I don't really care if you have a major in latin and a minor in linguistics, or whatever it is you have, since really, it doesn't matter. This is a wiki, all that matters is that We're right, you're wrong. Though evidently some people don't quite agree with my synopsis. I'm gonna go over to a certain, beloved quote: "Peaple r dum". --Warwick 20:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

@Miles: Presenting an opinion (even a crude opinion as the case may be) is not, by any stretch of the imagination vandalism, though one could make the case for trolling or disruption I 'spose.

@Semicolon: The fact that the problem predates me does not detract from my ability to respond to that problem as I see fit. And how many times do I have to say it? I'm not here to fix your problems, I can't fix your problems. I'm here to convince you that there is a problem, a fact which although you seemingly accept, you deny at least as much. Although there's potential for exacerbation of the problem, I hardly think that my few posts amount to anywhere near the degree of maliciousness that I would expect to be met by a GTFO-esque comment. As to contacting Wikia, from what I've been told by KirbyKing (assuming he's right) that would do no good. I've identified the problem from my point of view any number of times, you chose to respond by telling me to shove off, thus starting all of this drama, drama for which I hold you responsible. KirbyKing, at least, responded to my queries calmly and intellectually, you on the other hand chose to dismiss my post and exacerbate the situation beyond all belief. If you don't want to listen to us, don't respond.

– Defiant Elements 20:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Can we just end this conversation and come to a decision!? this is badly pinging the RC JtM =^] (talk) 21:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

For my part, I'm not here to solve any problems. I'm not a member of this community, and I lack the history and relations to fully understand any issues here; even if I did understand the situation, I would still keep out. But surely you see, Mr. Colon, that your approach to this topic is ineffective is best. 99.142.40.185 21:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That'd be lovely if you could pull it off, mate. But, unless I missed a whole heck of a lot of discussion, there's a lot to be done before you come to a "decision." You could probably overturn/shorten the bans, yes, but that alone wouldn't fix the problem. Addressing the effect without addressing the cause is just asking for trouble. – Defiant Elements 21:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

My apologies on the "vandals" point. Still, even if Randall lost his temper he still is a sysop and has earned it. If you look at his request for adminship it's clear he knows what he's doing. The source of our current problem isn't any one admin; rather, it's that their fights end up with non-admin level users getting banned for little reason. My suggestion (that few would appreciat), is that every current sysop must defend their position by whatever our new RfA policy is, to see if they still have earned it. Any thoughts on that last point? Miles.oppenheimer (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

thats basically what I was trying to say :>. Except that we should demote everyone till they can prove they're worthy of it. --User:Warwick 21:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Just so you know, Warwick, Semi wasn't talking about Randall being his friend, he was talking about me. And as for the bans that Randall gave, if you didn't notice, I've commuted them (if I missed one, let me know). The only one I didn't commute was Blue Ninjakoppa and he repeatedly made vulgar personal attacks against multiple users, and then, after reciveing a short ban, continued to use his talk page to rant and attack other users. If that isn't ban-worthy on your wiki, then I don't know what is (what follows is sarcasm) and will be contacting Willy on Wheels so he can find a place for his work that doesn't get him banned. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 21:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea actually. Part of my frustration lies in the utter lack of a venue for reconfirmation and no-confidence voting. As to Randall, what worries me is less that he lost his temper (that much I can forgive anyone), but, rather, that his talk page, when taken as a whole, demonstrates a modus operandi that ill-befits a Sysop, i.e. an isolated incident is one thing, a pattern of behavior is quite another. – Defiant Elements 21:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)