Talk:Clone/Archive 3

Clones in Melee

Should it be mentioned that clones in Melee have a slightly recessed portrait and are directly next to who they are clones of? Webrunner 10:32, February 15, 2008 (EST)

Clones in Brawl

Before anyone puts Lucas or Wolf back on the list, remember that, like Luigi, they aren't really clones per se, as mentioned in the article already. Special Moves alone do not a clone make. Gargomon251 13:24, February 15, 2008 (EST)

• The same thing goes for Link and Toon Link. TL's Boomerang doesn't cause a small European windstorm/Typhoon/Tornado/whatever too say, the bomb-explosion is bigger and he's lighter and faster. King M (talk•contribs•logs) 31 March 2008 16:23 (GMT +01)

You're forgetting that they share almost every standard attack, plus the same Final Smash, UNLIKE Lucas or Wolf to their counterparts. - Gargomon251 20:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

You need to use some human common sense here-this is 'Unnoficial' lingo. I personally consider Lucas and Ness to be clones, but only through their special moves do I consider them that. Unfortunately, everybody will have a different oppinion, so I will add Ness and Lucas and the like, but I will ad how not all consider them clones, and why. M'kay then? Zenzpore 00:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Zenzpore

On the contrary...

In fact, I can pretend that Luigification doesn't exist. Because it doesn't....cite me some sources or something. Find a SmashBoards thread, maybe a website. The terminology is childish and vague. You can't justify a "partial clone that's not actually a clone because it's not similar enough to be a clone but let's give it a name anyway." By this definition, you could draw relationships between any two characters and call them "Luigified," which is precisely how your silly Ike/Marth debate got started in the first place. What? Because two B moves that both charge and both have swords deserve to be lumped together under some bogus category as though the developers and players actually care? Notability is the question here. What is this information worth? Nothing. --Randall00 05:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, chill. It's a nickname that I've seen used quite a bit for clones that have variation. You can't exactly call Wolf a clone of Fox, as their standard moves are different. It's a type of clone, so let them have a section. You already took away the article, at least leave them with something. FyreNWater - (Talk • Contributions ) 07:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I would be downright surprised if none of the early Wolf threads mentioned it. I got 394 thread results for "Luigified" on the entire Smashboards, so you can't give me that "it doesn't exist" excuse. Just because it's not an official term means it should be totally disregarded. - Gargomon251 09:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Many terms are not official but are widely used and as i read the comments posted it looks as if everyone's criteria of a clone and a luigified character differs from person to person. The article should stay but saying which characters are clones and who are luigified should be carefully choosen to avoid bias ( from people who use the clone or luigified characters ) and to avoid much backlash ( which is expected in this subject ). Let it stand but don't be surprised when you post someone's favorite character as a clone and they vandalize your talk page as well as the article. This subject ( along with tiers ) is very touchy and should be handled by people who obviously understand the risks associated with it and who are knowledgeable here on the wiki( meaning not me ). Gargomon, Randall and Silverdragon should decide since it's just one of those subjects that shouldn't be left for everyone to decide on. ( none of the character I really like have be considered clones or luigified so i'd rather try not to get involved in who is a clone and who is ) (Carbonkirby 14:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC))

Ever since the Luigification article became protected, I've been trying my best to be as open-ended as possible to prevent backlash, but as a result it does end up sounding very unclear. However, I have been trying to explain possible reasoning rather than treating everything as concrete fact. This way it's still up to the individual opinion, but at least the concept can be understood, even if some people, even me, don't agree with some specific characters. - Gargomon251 23:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Toon Link

Last time I checked, Toon Link had, what, two, three unique attacks? Because he doesn't use kicks for his aerials. Meanwhile Ike and Marth only share one special and a two or three standard attacks. I know clones are up to opinion, but clearly these two are well past the line. They are respectively the most and least similar clones in the game! Which will be even more obvious when the Attacks lists on the various pages are finised. - Gargomon251 (talk) 03:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Unique attacks:

• Upsmash (hits three times for Link)
• Nair (sex kick)
• Fair (hits three times IIRC)
• Bair (a kick)
• Back throw
• Forward Throw

- Gargomon251 (talk) 04:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

You forgot about Dair. Toon Link's is a stall and fall attack (which is more signifigant than having a different animation) while Link's is not. --TStick (talk) 13:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't really consider that a major difference. Other than the spiking properties, you get the same results from Link by Fastfalling. It's still the same animation, and the same basic attack. It just moves a little faster. Like Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch, to an extent. - Gargomon251 (talk) 01:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

If Toon Link lands his dair next to an opponent without actually hitting him/her, then they will get pushed away if Toon Link was close enough. If Link lands his dair next to somebody, it doesn't push them away. I consider that Toon Link's dair is different enough than Link's to be considered a different attack. --TStick (talk) 03:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Kirby and Jigglypuff

I noticed that in all smash bros. games, Kirby and Jigglypuff have similar movesets, such as their ability to "puff up" and float. Shouldn't Jigglypuff be considered a clone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.85.140 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, and Ness is a clone of Mario because they're the same shape.... - Gargomon251 (talk) 01:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

What the! Kirby and Jiggly only share one animation their jump, and how can Mario and Ness be clones because of their shape! Sheesh! Dark Dedede (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Gargomon was being sarcastic. The idea that either of the two pairs are clones is ridiculous. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Mario and Squirtle

Almost all of their ground attacks are different except for foward tilt and down throw. However, most of their aerials are pretty much like each other's. Squirtle's nair has a completely different animation to Mario's, but both have the same Sex Kick properties. Aside from button mapping and what they do uncharged, Water Gun is very similar to F.L.U.D.D..

They should be in the semi-clone category. I don't consider Lucario to be a Mewtwo clone though, because they only share one attack.

--TStick (talk) 15:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This is clearly a joke, they don't move the same, jump the same, or share any of the same attacks besides Water Gun. - Gargomon251 (talk) 04:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I had some time on my hands so I compared them side by side:

NO similar ground moves

NO similar throws

ONE similar special (MAYBE two if you count waterfall...sorta)

THREE similar aerials (Bair, Dair, Uair)

Nothing else is even close. It's like comparing Shiek to ZSS. - Gargomon251 (talk) 04:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Falco and Fox

Unique moves:

• Down Special (YES, it moves much differently and has a different knockback, plus it can't be held)
• Neutral A combo
• Up Tilt
• F-air
• N-air
• Back Air (Falco kicks a bit differently)
• Fsmash

Different animation = different attack, otherwise all characters would be clones. Granted, some moves are still close enough. Both Fox and Falco flip-kick for the UAir, but at slightly different angles. Not enough to really matter. - Gargomon251 (talk) 04:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

A different animation doesn't mean it's a completely different attack. Falco's neutral A combo has a different animation, but it still has the same multi-hit properties of Fox's neutral A combo. Falco's Fair and Bair (the animation isn't that different) also have the same effects as Fox's Fair and Bair.

I'd have to agree with Down Special and Up Tilt though, because they are pretty different for Falco. --TStick (talk) 12:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Falco's Bair has more sex kick properties. And his forward aerial and combo are totally different other than the fact the hit more than once. Difference in animation is 50% what determines a "cloned" move. Otherwise the definition of "clone" becomes too broad. - Gargomon251 (talk) 01:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Mario and Luigi (brawl)

Unique attacks include:

• Neutral Combo
• Utilt (kittenswipe)
• Forward Smash (Spear hand)
• D-air (Mario Tornado)
• F-air (karate chop)
• Green Missile
• Luigi Tornado
• Dash Attack
• Negative Zone

They are NOT clones. Semi-clones, barely, but NOT CLONES IN BRAWL AT ALL. - Gargomon251 (talk) 04:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Ganondorf and C Falcon (Brawl)

Unique moves:

• Up Tilt (so it's a kick. But they both work so vastly differently.)
• Down Tilt
• Neutral A
• Flame Choke (totally different strike)
• Up Smash
• Up Throw (CF does a low uppercut, Ganon does a palm slam)
• F-air
• F-tilt and up special are close to being different, but debatable.

- Gargomon251 (talk) 04:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Marth and Ike

before someone considers this...THERE IS NO WAY IN HECK THAT IKE IS A CLONE.He has TWO attacks that are some what simaler.What,is he a clone for having a side-B simaler to Marths Final Smash,i dont think so.72.197.66.113 02:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, way to start an argument with nobody! WHOO! PWND! --RJM ^Talk 02:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)