SmashWiki talk:Manual of Style

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Disambiguation pages

How are disambiguation pages supposed to be handled? Are the entries supposed to be ordered alphabetically or in terms of relevancy/commonness/"most-likely search term"? Thanks in advance for the help. Fenyx4 (talk) 21:50, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Judging by this, I'd say relevance. Disaster Flare (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Relevance, definitely. The Cloud disambig and Zero (disambiguation) are good examples of this. Miles (talk) 22:47, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Okay; thanks for the replies and clarification. Yeah, I was trying to use the Cloud disambiguation page as a gauge (along with Thunder and Counter), although due to how recently the Cloud page was made, I was somewhat hesitant about adhering to it. Fenyx4 (talk) 23:29, 18 November 2015 (EST)

Formatting of music titles

How are the titles of musical compositions/"songs" supposed to be formatted? I have seen italics used in quite a few areas, although I thought that the standard was using quotation marks ("") (first source, second source) for song titles? Wikipedia also advocates the usage of quotation marks for song titles and instrumental compositions. Instrumental compositions seem to vary somewhat, although songs with vocals seem to follow the "quotation mark" guideline, although I'm not sure what SmashWiki should use overall.. Thanks in advance for the help. Fenyx4 (talk) 23:29, 18 November 2015 (EST)

I'd strongly encourage italics. That's what's used pretty much everywhere under the current system. Miles (talk) 01:16, 19 November 2015 (EST)

SSB4?

I think this article should clear up whether or not SSB4 is an acceptable shortening of Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Nintendo 3DS. It clearly states that SSBB is not acceptable, but that SSB and the like are. Many articles currently use SSB4, so it should be made known if this is okay or should be fixed. ScizorSteelix 18:31, 23 January 2016 (EST)

IMO "SSB" and "SSB4" are acceptable (and preferable) because concise, one-word shorthands like "Melee" and "Brawl" aren't available. I'm also vehemently opposed to the "Smash 64" and "Smash 4" shorthands. Miles (talk) 19:30, 23 January 2016 (EST)

I don't see what's wrong with Smash 64 and Smash 4 (or, at least what's more wrong with them than SSB or SSB4). It's a little more consistent at least. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 19:43, 23 January 2016 (EST)

Soooo, should someone add that to the page? Or should we wait for a general consensus? Since it's a guideline page, I'm not exactly sure of the rules behind editing it. ScizorSteelix 19:45, 23 January 2016 (EST)

Yeah, I would say that could be added without too much hassle. Serpent King 20:18, 23 January 2016 (EST)

phantom hit

phantom hit is used much more often then glancing blow Nintendofan1653 (talk) EZMONEY!! 13:06, 24 January 2016 (EST)

proof Nintendofan1653 (talk) EZMONEY!! 13:08, 24 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think you understand what you changed. The page is known as Glancing blow, so listing on the manual of style that it is known as Phantom hit instead of Glancing blow on the wiki is a complete lie. If you think it should be called phantom hit, you should bring it up on the talk page of that page to be moved. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 13:27, 24 January 2016 (EST)

Gender variations and defaults

Sorry for bringing up so many things on this page, but since it clarifies the way the Ice Climbers should be treated, should this be the place where we specify that we refer to gender-variable characters by their default? ScizorSteelix 21:49, 24 January 2016 (EST)

Woops. Already there. Shows you how thouroughly I read that. ScizorSteelix 22:15, 24 January 2016 (EST)

Considering that certain Pokémon are gendered in descriptions and costumes, I think we should do something about it. Notably, starting in Gen IV, all male Pikachus have a tail ending in a flat edge, while the females have a notched end; this would mean that the Pikachu seen in Brawl through Ultimate is male, while two of Pikachu's costumes in the latter are exclusively female (Celene's hat and Pikachu Libre). Greninja is also referred to with male pronouns in materials for Ultimate. Most of Pichu's outfits in Ultimate are unisex-based, but the Notch-eared outfit is exclusively female based on the entry in Heart Gold and Soul Silver.--Tailikku (talk) 22:18, 2 November 2018 (EDT)

Since there are so many male/female options now, and the game acknowledges it by talking them as if they are gender neutral, I think that when talking about characters like Robin, Corrin or Inkling we should use gender neutral pronouns. --Starcrystal45 (talk) 13:15, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Advice on enforcement

Since we're now enforcing use of the Manual, should we have it written somewhere saying so? I'd do it, but I'm having trouble working out where to put it. Black Vulpine (talk) 08:10, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

...what? We've always "enforced" this. Just because it's a guideline as opposed to a policy doesn't mean people are free to ignore it. Toomai Glittershine The Chilled 10:07, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

Should we change the default pronouns on Robin, Corrin, Inkling, etc.’s pages to gender neutral pronouns?

The tips in Ultimate use gender-neutral pronouns (In their series” instead of “In his series”), so I feel like we might need to change the rules on this to be consistent with what the actual games say —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.181.102.188 (talk • contribs) 14:30, January 12, 2019

No, refer here to why. SugarCookie420 (talk) 14:39, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Also, I should probably state that SmashWiki is not official, judging how my previous explanation probably wasn't the best. SugarCookie420 (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2019 (EST)

I’m aware that SmashWiki is unofficial. However, in order to be more consistent with the source material, I’d suggest changing the rules on default costumes. I use all of the default genders except Corrin anyways. I just want this to be consistent with official info184.181.102.188 14:50, 12 January 2019 (EST)

I don't think this change would provide any useful benefit. Also note that your example is very limited; the tip text itself largely avoids using pronouns for many of the reversible characters. Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 15:53, 12 January 2019 (EST)

This would provide a useful benefit: being consistent with the ingame slurce material. Even if the tips largely avoid using pronouns in general, I’d say that still counts as treating them as gender-neutral 184.181.102.188 21:43, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Again, SmashWiki is not official. We don't have to change something just to match up with what the game does. Aidan, the Rurouni 22:08, 12 January 2019 (EST)

“Prioritize using official names unless a different name is much more widely used.” (The “Do” number 3 on that page) .Pronouns count as names, as they merely just replace the name with something easier to type. Nintendo officially calls characters with gender alts “they” and “them”. While a majority of fans use specific gendered pronouns, there are cases where the alt’s pronoun is used instead. To appease both ends, I believe that the rule on referring characters as their default gender should be changed, as not only does it use official terms, it also appeases fans of the alts (such as that crazy Corrin fan who keeps showing up) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.181.102.188 (talk • contribs) 22:19, January 12, 2019‎

Woah, at least watch the personal attacks. Anyways, the Do in number 3 is a rule geared towards smash terms such as "JV5" or "4-stock" and not really names of characters. SugarCookie420 (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Alright. Maybe I misunderstood that rule. However, despite SmashWiki being unofficial, I’d still suggest changing genderswap alts to use gender-neutral pronouns to be consistent with what Nintendo says. 184.181.102.188 05:18, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I actually agree with the suggestion that we should use gender neutral language. It avoids ambiguity on pages like this which are about a character not based in Smash and therefore having no default appearance to choose from, and also prevents the future problem of what to do if a character has different default appearances in different Smash games. – Emmett 05:47, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I'd argue that it's not really our problem if home series don't know what a character's default is, and we should just use ours. Regarding your future point, that would require a very specific circumstance of "character has no canon home series gender", "character can be either gender", and "character changes default Smash Bros. gender between games", which I don't think is likely enough to change policy now.

Now that being said, if someone writes an article such that it doesn't use pronouns (like the SSB4/SSBU tips do), that doesn't require this policy to change at all. Toomai Glittershine The Yellow 21:07, 13 January 2019 (EST)

Even if the fighter pages only use the default gendered variants, at least this should be changed from “his” to “their”, as it refers to Corrin in their series, and not as a fighter. The same goes to all other non-fighter pages.

Additionally, about your point about Emmets’s future point being too specific has most of those circumstances filled by half of the genderswap characters already. It’s much less specific than you think. Robin almost always used the female version for their possesed form as Grima (particularly on the trading cards). Villager uses both genders equally in everything but Smash. Lastly, Corrin actually already uses the female gender more often in lpretty much everything but smash (She was clearly the default in Warriors, and she was advertised significantly more in Heroes, to the point where she’s the on the icon for one of the chapters, and was given out for free for a brief period. She also is featured more often on the official Fire Emblem trading cards). The only crietria not filled is if any character has changed their default gender in between games. 184.181.102.188 23:13, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I'm making the assumption that the "changes between games" criteria is by far the least likely to occur. I'm also operating under the presumption that however the character appears in Smash Bros. is more important than how they appear in their home universe.

I should also note that I'm not against having an exception for the general character pages (for example, writing [Corrin] as gender-neutral, but writing [Corrin (SSBU)] and all other pages as SSB-default). Toomai Glittershine Le Grand Fromage 22:35, 15 January 2019 (EST)

I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered? – Emmett 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)

It’s been roughly 24 hours. Have we all come to a consensus on if the “refer to characters with multiple genders by their default costume” rule should stay or go? Personally, I’d say remove the rule, as like Emmet said, it’s more consistent with non-fighter pages, and will become less confusing in case a character changes their default gender. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.203.11.147 (talk • contribs) 21:01, January 13, 2019‎

I think we should wait a bit more, no one has responded after Emmett's point, which to be fair is a pretty valid argument. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:06, 13 January 2019 (EST)

I brought this up earlier (on the general proposals page) and was mostly met with opposition, but I still think going gender-neutral would be the better option. The "use the gender of the default costume" rule leads to a lot of confusion, and it wouldn't hurt the flow much to just use "they". DryKirby64 (talk) 22:30, 13 January 2019 (EST)

It’s been 48 hours after the proposition was first made. I’m curious to see if we’ve reached a consensus on whether this rule should be changed. If not, how long would the consensus take? Should we just leave it up to a vote? 184.181.102.188 22:59, 14 January 2019 (EST)

From what I have gathered:

Support: The 2 IPs (unless they are the same), Emmett, DryKirby

Oppose: Aidan, Toomai(?)

Neutral: Me

I'd say there's a consensus, but don't take my word for it. SugarCookie420 (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2019 (EST)

Why do you all seem so desperate to push this through as soon as possible? This is a relatively major change that needs weeks to discuss from more than 6-7 people, not days. Toomai Glittershine The Free 22:26, 15 January 2019 (EST)

It’s actually a relatively simple change, which is why I’m scratching my head at it taking so long. Attempting to not break the rules, I actually edited the SSBU pages for Corrin, Inkling, Robin, Villager, and Wii Fit trainer to not contain pronouns at all (aside from the World of Light section, where I specifically state the default one). You can actually check out Corrin (SSBU), Inkling (SSBU), Robin (SSBU), Villager (SSBU), and Wii Fit Trainer (SSBU) to see if they look like the rule should be lifted or banned. Or heck, just replace the rule with a suggestion to avoid using pronouns at all, just like a all of the tips outside of the “In Their Series” section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.181.102.188 (talk • contribs) 00:59, January 16, 2019‎

I wouldn't support a rule removing all pronouns entirely. When used properly they greatly improve the flow of sentences. That said, while I think it's a simple change in terms of the complexity, it's also not a particularly urgent or important one, so I don't overly see the harm in waiting until discussion has progressed further. – Emmett 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)

To respond to Toomai, I was mainly just tallying up the consensus, since IP had asked whether we had one or not. SugarCookie420 (talk) 13:47, 16 January 2019 (EST)

I would like to add another point that might be lame or old-fashioned but I feel should be considered. Many style guides for formal writing continue to discourage or outright ban the singular "they". We shouldn't blindly follow this, but we do try to keep the wiki reasonably formal, and I am of the opinion that the singular "they" feels clunky and hard to grasp in the wiki context. Allow it as optional? Fine. Mandate its usage? No thanks. Toomai Glittershine The Loony 23:20, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I think that’s a good compromise actually. Allow the usage of both default-gender pronouns and gender-neutral pronouns, but don’t mandate the usage of either. To help keep the consistency, would suggesting to avaoid pronouns ad much as possible work, but allow either gender-neutral or default-gender when neccessary? 184.181.102.188 02:49, 23 January 2019 (EST)

I'm feeling a rule something like this:

Some fighters have no defined gender in their home series and change gender in some of their Smash Bros. alternate costumes (such as Robin and Inkling). When discussing these characters in the context of their home series, it is acceptable to refer to them with gender-neutral language. When discussing these characters as Smash Bros. fighters, it is preferred to use the gender of the default costume. In either case, omitting pronouns entirely is a valid style. Do not make edits simply to change one to the other.

Toomai Glittershine The Obfuscating 19:42, 23 January 2019 (EST)

That’s perfect actually. The last part could probably be worded a little better to sound a bit less threatening (“Making edits simply to change pronouns is heavily discouraged”). Otherwise, I think this is a perfect compromise. 184.181.102.188 00:37, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Should I move Toomai’s suggestion rule over to the general proposals thread, or should I wait until my other proposal has a consensus? I’m the IP who made this suggestion by the way. Lou Cena (talk) 19:58, 6 February 2019 (EST)

What “other proposal” are you referring to? – Emmett 04:41, 7 February 2019 (EST)

Currently, I have a proposal for major alternae costumes (such as Wario, Ike, Cloud, Isabelle, Plant Bayonetta, and the aforementioned genderswaps) to be placed in the main imagebox instead of the gallery. It’s kind of related to this one, but I’m not sure if we’re allowed multiple proposals at once. Lou Cena (talk) 12:06, 7 February 2019 (EST)

So is there a consensus here to change? SugarCookie 420 14:28, 9 February 2019 (EST)

Right now, me and Toomai agreed that removing pronouns entirely is a valid practice. Other than that, nobody else has come by to really give thwir opinion in weeks sadly. I remember that the admin Emmet was in support of hanging it to gender-neutral, and another user and another IP agreed on using gender-neutral pronouns. I’d say here is, but last time I changed the Manual of Style page to accompdate it, I was said to be too hasty. We may have to wait.

I don't really see any reason to change the policy regarding smasher pages at all. As far as I'm concerned the current policy works just fine, whereas gender-neutral terms like "they" tend to read rather awkwardly, and will probably just look out of place. Thus far I have not seen a single convincing argument for using gender neutral pronouns on smasher articles like Robin's that doesn't rely on breaking SW:NOT, so until such an argument can be brought forward I would strongly oppose any such change in this sub-policy. Now as for the general character articles I suppose it makes more sense seeing as there isn't really a strict "default" in the home games for many of these characters, but in the context of Smash, there absolutely is. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:42, 9 February 2019 (EST)

In the context of smash, some characters with multiple genders use their default less strictly than you’d think. Corrin, for example, is female on thr classic banner and a good portion of gameplay marketing. Additionally, she’s seen on the image label depicting CPU AI. Male Corrin is primarily used on the CSS and some of the marketing depicting all of the characters together (such as the release fay banner or the panoramic) Lou Cena (talk) 14:47, 9 February 2019 (EST)

I don't see the classic mode banner as all that convincing. It would be like saying that since there is a trophy depicting male Wii Fit Trainer that there is no default costume for Wii Fit Trainer. Miscellanea in the game should not say anything about what the default is, since alternate costumes are also depicted on miscellanea as well. In the context of being a playable character, male Corrin is the default costume, and the fighter articles specifically deal with the character as a playable character. As I said before, gendered pronouns read better than neutral ones, and thus I firmly believe that if there is a default gender, then said gender should be used. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:53, 9 February 2019 (EST)

The classic mode banner is admittedly weak proof that only applies to Corrin, since she’s the ONLY alt on the banner. Maybe you’re right that miscllanea shouldn’t count. But at the very least, would completely removing pronouns do it as well? That’s another suggestion being made in this thread.Lou Cena (talk) 15:50, 9 February 2019 (EST)

Oh definitely not, if anything sidestepping use of pronouns would make wording even more awkward, not to mention it would make editing the pages a nightmare... Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 15:58, 9 February 2019 (EST)

I can see your arguements very clearly, and I understand them. However, as said by the admin Emmet, I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered? I don’t see any particular advantage over specifically stating a character’s gender. In fact, it may deter some users who prefer playing as alternate genders (such as Corrin or Robin). Lou Cena (talk) 02:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)