Charizard (SSB4)/Up throw: Difference between revisions
m ("Charzard") |
Omega Tyrant (talk | contribs) (I underestimated the power of Zard's u-throw when I originally wrote this, fixed the article to reflect it plus some other elaboration.) |
||
| Line 2: | Line 2: | ||
==Overview== | ==Overview== | ||
Charizard soars into the air, passing the upper blast line with the opponent in tow. It then zooms back down and slams them against the floor. It is similar to Kirby and Meta Knight's up throws, and has the same ability to land on any soft platform above Charizard as he uses the move. In terms of knockback, it is the strongest up throw in the game, KOing from center at around 125% before [[DI]] and [[rage]], as well as the second strongest overall throw in the game, only behind {{SSB4|Ness}}'s [[Ness (SSB4)/Back throw|back throw]]. However, due to its 70 degree angle, DIing the throw down and away | Charizard soars into the air, passing the upper blast line with the opponent in tow. It then zooms back down and slams them against the floor. It is similar to Kirby and Meta Knight's up throws, and has the same ability to land on any soft platform above Charizard as he uses the move. In terms of knockback, it is the strongest up throw in the game, KOing from center at around 125% before [[DI]] and [[rage]], as well as the second strongest overall throw in the game, only behind {{SSB4|Ness}}'s [[Ness (SSB4)/Back throw|back throw]]. However, due to its 70 degree angle, DIing the throw down and away significantly reduces its KO power, as DIing this way moves its trajectory into the [[vectoring]] range, thus weakening its knockback while giving it a highly unfavorable knockback trajectory. The aforementioned KO percent becomes around 150% if DI'd this way, and the knockback isn't horizontal enough during this DI to make it much of a KO threat horizontally; if done as close to the ledge as possible, it'll KO at most 5% sooner on {{SSB4|Final Destination}}, 7% sooner on [[Town and City]] and [[Lylat Cruise]], 10% sooner [[Smashville]], and will never KO sooner horizontally on {{SSB4|Battlefield}} and {{SSB4|Dream Land}}. | ||
The aforementioned platform landing ability can aid its KO power; when not DI'd properly, using the throw underneath a platform can result in especially early KOs, especially if below a high platform | The aforementioned platform landing ability can aid its KO power; when not DI'd properly, using the throw underneath a platform can result in especially early KOs, especially if below a high platform. Landing on a high platform in Town and City or on the top platform of Dreamland can KO below 90% before any rage without proper DI for example, though in practice the KO% won't be that low due to the ease of DIing the move. When optimally DI'd while below a lower platform, u-throw will KO about 15-20% sooner, while below a high platform it'll KO about 25-35% sooner, depending on the exact height of these platforms and their proximity to the ceiling [[blast line]]. | ||
Even with this ability to land on above platforms, in practice it's less effective than {{SSB4|Mewtwo}}'s [[Mewtwo (SSB4)/Up throw|up throw]], which is the second strongest up throw in the game and will KO around 135% when optimally DI'd before rage, due to its 90 degree trajectory giving DI little impact on it. Additionally, since Mewtwo's releases the opponent above his head, at a height around or above low platforms, it'll still KO sooner than Charizard's will below platforms, unless the platform is high up. {{SSB4|Lucas}}' [[Lucas (SSB4)/Up throw|up throw]] will also KO slightly sooner than Charizard's when used from ground level and both are optimally DI'd for the same reasons Mewtwo's does, though since it's not as strong as Mewtwo's and doesn't release the opponent at as high a height, Charizard's will KO sooner when below any platform. {{SSB4|Corrin}}'s [[Corrin (SSB4)/Up throw|up throw]] is another powerful up throw that has similar properties to Mewtwo's and Lucas', but it will never KO sooner than Charizard's when optimally DI'd. Then while {{SSB4|Kirby}}'s [[Kirby (SSB4)/Up throw|up throw]] and {{SSB4|R.O.B.}}'s [[R.O.B. (SSB4)/Up throw|up throw]] are powerful up throws that can land on above platforms like Charizard's while possessing a more vertical launch trajectory, they aren't powerful enough to ever KO sooner when optimally DI'd. So overall, despite its heavy vulnerability to vectoring, Charizard's up throw is still the second or third best KO up throw in the game, while also possessing the earliest KO potential when under high platforms or when the opponent DIs it wrong. | |||
==Application== | |||
Being a KO throw, its usage is simple as a means to KO a grabbed opponent at high damages. Despite its great potency as a KO throw as previously covered and the immense value it would have to most other characters, Charizard players don't often secure KOs with the move, due to Charizard's variety of other great KO moves that will usually KO the opponent before they get into u-throw's optimally DI'd KO range. However it's still a very valuable asset to Charizard's moveset, acting as an especially effective stock cap that will prevent opponents from living beyond 150% even without platform aid, while still having that potency to KO before other characters' primary KO moves when it has platform aid. | |||
Due to the infamous reputation of up throw having such scary power when not DI'd right, players will usually hold on to down and away when grabbed by Charizard at high damages. However this is poor DI for Charizard's powerful and low trajectory [[Charizard (SSB4)/Forward throw|forward throw]], which is too fast for players to react in time to change their DI even when the throw is slowed down by being a heavyweight. As a result, Charizard has a deadly DI mixup where he can forward throw the opponent instead of up throwing when near the ledge, where a forward throw DI'd this way will KO sooner than Charizard's up throw would have, while if the opponent survives the throw, they'll be left in an awful recovery position to contend with Charizard's great edgeguarding. To avoid this DI mixup, players should instead hold in upon being grabbed by Charizard, and then move their DI to down and away if they see up throw initiate, as up throw takes long enough to complete to be reactable. This DI mixup doesn't work with [[Charizard (SSB4)/Back throw|back throw]], due to its higher launch trajectory and the direction for up throw's optimal DI being acceptable DI for back throw. | |||
For niche uses, due to Charizard flying high into the air above the upper blastline, If Charizard or the opponent has an explosive attached to them like a [[Gooey Bomb]] or {{SSB4|Mega Man}}'s [[Crash Bomber]], it can be used for a [[Sacrificial KO]] if properly timed to set the explosion off as Charizard is at the apex of its jump. Another niche use is being used to setup a potential [[zero-to-death]] combo when below the center Town and City platform at its highest peak; at very low percents after using up throw, Charizard can hit the opponent with [[Fly]], which due to how close Charizard will get to the top with this platform, will KO the opponent even if they were grabbed at 0%. However this combo isn't practical, due to the opponent having to DI up throw in for Fly to connect, which is never helpful DI for up throw, while the opponent will also live if they DI away during Fly. | |||
==Origin== | |||
This throw is inspired by the Pokémon anime's depiction of Seismic Toss, based off of how Charizard uses the move in the anime. | This throw is inspired by the Pokémon anime's depiction of Seismic Toss, based off of how Charizard uses the move in the anime. | ||
| Line 18: | Line 26: | ||
*{{buff|Knockback scaling|160|220.}} | *{{buff|Knockback scaling|160|220.}} | ||
In the initial release of the game, Charizard's up throw was a significantly different move in functionality. The throw was very weak, dealing low knockback that was never a threat to KO at realistic damages, and dealt a mediocre 8% damage. The throw was seemingly designed to be a setup throw, but its 60 degree trajectory, too high base knockback, and awkward ending that leaves Charizard airborne, made followups unfeasible without [[Dragon Rush]], even after the 1.0.4 patch | In the initial release of the game, Charizard's up throw was a significantly different move in functionality. The throw was very weak, dealing low knockback that was never a threat to KO at realistic damages, and dealt a mediocre 8% damage. The throw was seemingly designed to be a setup throw, but its 60 degree trajectory, too high base knockback, and awkward ending that leaves Charizard airborne, made followups unfeasible without [[Dragon Rush]], even after the 1.0.4 patch removed vertical [[vectoring]]. And with [[Dragon Rush]], the followup only worked up to low-mid damages, while never being a [[true combo]], requiring a good read of the opponent's reaction to land it. As such, up throw had no real practical use in early versions of the game; it would never KO, Charizard's forward and back throws dealt more damage while giving vastly superior positional advantage alongside having good KO power, and it couldn't setup into anything semi-reliably without customs, in which case back throw was a completely superior setup throw for Dragon Rush. | ||
The 1.0.6 patch buffed the throw, increasing its damage output by 3%, making its new damage output 11%, higher-end damage output for a throw, which in turned also buffed its knockback slightly. However its knockback was still way too low to be a KO threat, and this only hindered its already very-limited setup capabilities. The damage buff did make it Charizard's most damaging throw, meaning in situations where the opponent's damage was too low to get KO'd by Charizard's other throws, while being in a position where Charizard wouldn't get meaningful positional advantage, it could be used to get the most damage out of the situation. However even then it only provided 1% more damage than Charizard's forward and back throws, overall still leaving the throw with little practical use. | The 1.0.6 patch buffed the throw, increasing its damage output by 3%, making its new damage output 11%, higher-end damage output for a throw, which in turned also buffed its knockback slightly. However its knockback was still way too low to be a KO threat, and this only hindered its already very-limited setup capabilities. The damage buff did make it Charizard's most damaging throw, meaning in situations where the opponent's damage was too low to get KO'd by Charizard's other throws, while being in a position where Charizard wouldn't get meaningful positional advantage, it could be used to get the most damage out of the situation. However even then it only provided 1% more damage than Charizard's forward and back throws, which rarely wouldn't give Charizard meaningful positional advantage, overall still leaving the throw with little practical use. | ||
The 1.0.8 patch restructured the move, making its launch angle 10 degrees more vertical, and drastically improving its knockback scaling, turning the move into a pure KO throw, with extremely strong knockback for a throw (albeit | The 1.0.8 patch restructured the move, making its launch angle 10 degrees more vertical, and drastically improving its knockback scaling, turning the move into a pure KO throw, with extremely strong knockback for a throw (albeit vulnerable to vectoring as previously covered). This patch also restructured Charizard's down throw, which was previously Charizard's main KO throw, into a pure setup throw. While Charizard's up throw is still inferior to some of Charizard's other KO options, this patch made the throw considerably more useful, giving it practical purpose now as a throw that can snuff stocks that go over 150% without needing to rely on Charizard being at the edge of a stage, while being a highly potent KO throw in general. | ||
The move has been unchanged since 1.0.8. | The move has been unchanged since 1.0.8. | ||
Revision as of 18:57, September 7, 2017
Overview
Charizard soars into the air, passing the upper blast line with the opponent in tow. It then zooms back down and slams them against the floor. It is similar to Kirby and Meta Knight's up throws, and has the same ability to land on any soft platform above Charizard as he uses the move. In terms of knockback, it is the strongest up throw in the game, KOing from center at around 125% before DI and rage, as well as the second strongest overall throw in the game, only behind Ness's back throw. However, due to its 70 degree angle, DIing the throw down and away significantly reduces its KO power, as DIing this way moves its trajectory into the vectoring range, thus weakening its knockback while giving it a highly unfavorable knockback trajectory. The aforementioned KO percent becomes around 150% if DI'd this way, and the knockback isn't horizontal enough during this DI to make it much of a KO threat horizontally; if done as close to the ledge as possible, it'll KO at most 5% sooner on Final Destination, 7% sooner on Town and City and Lylat Cruise, 10% sooner Smashville, and will never KO sooner horizontally on Battlefield and Dream Land.
The aforementioned platform landing ability can aid its KO power; when not DI'd properly, using the throw underneath a platform can result in especially early KOs, especially if below a high platform. Landing on a high platform in Town and City or on the top platform of Dreamland can KO below 90% before any rage without proper DI for example, though in practice the KO% won't be that low due to the ease of DIing the move. When optimally DI'd while below a lower platform, u-throw will KO about 15-20% sooner, while below a high platform it'll KO about 25-35% sooner, depending on the exact height of these platforms and their proximity to the ceiling blast line.
Even with this ability to land on above platforms, in practice it's less effective than Mewtwo's up throw, which is the second strongest up throw in the game and will KO around 135% when optimally DI'd before rage, due to its 90 degree trajectory giving DI little impact on it. Additionally, since Mewtwo's releases the opponent above his head, at a height around or above low platforms, it'll still KO sooner than Charizard's will below platforms, unless the platform is high up. Lucas' up throw will also KO slightly sooner than Charizard's when used from ground level and both are optimally DI'd for the same reasons Mewtwo's does, though since it's not as strong as Mewtwo's and doesn't release the opponent at as high a height, Charizard's will KO sooner when below any platform. Corrin's up throw is another powerful up throw that has similar properties to Mewtwo's and Lucas', but it will never KO sooner than Charizard's when optimally DI'd. Then while Kirby's up throw and R.O.B.'s up throw are powerful up throws that can land on above platforms like Charizard's while possessing a more vertical launch trajectory, they aren't powerful enough to ever KO sooner when optimally DI'd. So overall, despite its heavy vulnerability to vectoring, Charizard's up throw is still the second or third best KO up throw in the game, while also possessing the earliest KO potential when under high platforms or when the opponent DIs it wrong.
Application
Being a KO throw, its usage is simple as a means to KO a grabbed opponent at high damages. Despite its great potency as a KO throw as previously covered and the immense value it would have to most other characters, Charizard players don't often secure KOs with the move, due to Charizard's variety of other great KO moves that will usually KO the opponent before they get into u-throw's optimally DI'd KO range. However it's still a very valuable asset to Charizard's moveset, acting as an especially effective stock cap that will prevent opponents from living beyond 150% even without platform aid, while still having that potency to KO before other characters' primary KO moves when it has platform aid.
Due to the infamous reputation of up throw having such scary power when not DI'd right, players will usually hold on to down and away when grabbed by Charizard at high damages. However this is poor DI for Charizard's powerful and low trajectory forward throw, which is too fast for players to react in time to change their DI even when the throw is slowed down by being a heavyweight. As a result, Charizard has a deadly DI mixup where he can forward throw the opponent instead of up throwing when near the ledge, where a forward throw DI'd this way will KO sooner than Charizard's up throw would have, while if the opponent survives the throw, they'll be left in an awful recovery position to contend with Charizard's great edgeguarding. To avoid this DI mixup, players should instead hold in upon being grabbed by Charizard, and then move their DI to down and away if they see up throw initiate, as up throw takes long enough to complete to be reactable. This DI mixup doesn't work with back throw, due to its higher launch trajectory and the direction for up throw's optimal DI being acceptable DI for back throw.
For niche uses, due to Charizard flying high into the air above the upper blastline, If Charizard or the opponent has an explosive attached to them like a Gooey Bomb or Mega Man's Crash Bomber, it can be used for a Sacrificial KO if properly timed to set the explosion off as Charizard is at the apex of its jump. Another niche use is being used to setup a potential zero-to-death combo when below the center Town and City platform at its highest peak; at very low percents after using up throw, Charizard can hit the opponent with Fly, which due to how close Charizard will get to the top with this platform, will KO the opponent even if they were grabbed at 0%. However this combo isn't practical, due to the opponent having to DI up throw in for Fly to connect, which is never helpful DI for up throw, while the opponent will also live if they DI away during Fly.
Origin
This throw is inspired by the Pokémon anime's depiction of Seismic Toss, based off of how Charizard uses the move in the anime.
Update history
Damage: 6% (hit 1), 2% (throw) → 8%, 3%.
- Angle: 60° → 70°.
- Knockback scaling: 160 → 220.
In the initial release of the game, Charizard's up throw was a significantly different move in functionality. The throw was very weak, dealing low knockback that was never a threat to KO at realistic damages, and dealt a mediocre 8% damage. The throw was seemingly designed to be a setup throw, but its 60 degree trajectory, too high base knockback, and awkward ending that leaves Charizard airborne, made followups unfeasible without Dragon Rush, even after the 1.0.4 patch removed vertical vectoring. And with Dragon Rush, the followup only worked up to low-mid damages, while never being a true combo, requiring a good read of the opponent's reaction to land it. As such, up throw had no real practical use in early versions of the game; it would never KO, Charizard's forward and back throws dealt more damage while giving vastly superior positional advantage alongside having good KO power, and it couldn't setup into anything semi-reliably without customs, in which case back throw was a completely superior setup throw for Dragon Rush.
The 1.0.6 patch buffed the throw, increasing its damage output by 3%, making its new damage output 11%, higher-end damage output for a throw, which in turned also buffed its knockback slightly. However its knockback was still way too low to be a KO threat, and this only hindered its already very-limited setup capabilities. The damage buff did make it Charizard's most damaging throw, meaning in situations where the opponent's damage was too low to get KO'd by Charizard's other throws, while being in a position where Charizard wouldn't get meaningful positional advantage, it could be used to get the most damage out of the situation. However even then it only provided 1% more damage than Charizard's forward and back throws, which rarely wouldn't give Charizard meaningful positional advantage, overall still leaving the throw with little practical use.
The 1.0.8 patch restructured the move, making its launch angle 10 degrees more vertical, and drastically improving its knockback scaling, turning the move into a pure KO throw, with extremely strong knockback for a throw (albeit vulnerable to vectoring as previously covered). This patch also restructured Charizard's down throw, which was previously Charizard's main KO throw, into a pure setup throw. While Charizard's up throw is still inferior to some of Charizard's other KO options, this patch made the throw considerably more useful, giving it practical purpose now as a throw that can snuff stocks that go over 150% without needing to rely on Charizard being at the edge of a stage, while being a highly potent KO throw in general.
The move has been unchanged since 1.0.8.
Hitboxes
| Hitbox type | Damage | Angle | Base knockback | Knockback scaling | Fixed knockback value | Weight dependent |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Throw | 8%, 3% (two hits) | 70° | 50 | 220 | — | No |
|
This article or section may require additional technical data. You can discuss this issue on the talk page or edit this page to improve it. |
|
