Chain grab: Difference between revisions
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Chain grabbing is a controversial technique within the community. Many players (generally casual players) consider it an unsportsmanlike move because it can be inescapable when perfected by the grabber. However, competitive players generally see it as a valid technique, as it's simply a [[combo]] that is performed by regrabbing, and that characters like {{SSBM|Sheik}}, the [[Ice Climbers]], and {{SSBB|King Dedede}} need it to overcome other deficiencies in high-level matches, provided it is not used in extreme excess to [[stall]] (i.e. using King Dedede's standing infinite beyond 300% damage, which is well beyond the damage needed for Dedede to KO the opponent with his back throw). Infinite chain grabbing, in particular, has a tendency to encourage more defensive gameplay and camping tactics, which is much more prevalent in ''Brawl''. Since the Ice Climbers have the potential to zero-death any character, most players counter the risk of approaching them by [[camping]], either by staying airborne or on platforms. | Chain grabbing is a controversial technique within the community. Many players (generally casual players) consider it an unsportsmanlike move because it can be inescapable when perfected by the grabber. However, competitive players generally see it as a valid technique, as it's simply a [[combo]] that is performed by regrabbing, and that characters like {{SSBM|Sheik}}, the [[Ice Climbers]], and {{SSBB|King Dedede}} need it to overcome other deficiencies in high-level matches, provided it is not used in extreme excess to [[stall]] (i.e. using King Dedede's standing infinite beyond 300% damage, which is well beyond the damage needed for Dedede to KO the opponent with his back throw). Infinite chain grabbing, in particular, has a tendency to encourage more defensive gameplay and camping tactics, which is much more prevalent in ''Brawl''. Since the Ice Climbers have the potential to zero-death any character, most players counter the risk of approaching them by [[camping]], either by staying airborne or on platforms. | ||
Possibly as a result of the controversy surrounding the technique, ''SSB4'' has removed chain-grabbing by granting 60 frames of invulnerability against grabs to a character who is thrown or grab-released. | Possibly as a result of the controversy surrounding the technique, ''SSB4'' has removed chain-grabbing by granting 60 frames of invulnerability against grabs to a character who is thrown or grab-released. Many fans argue about the change, but the general agreement is that it was for the best, perhaps due to the prior allegations surrounding its unsportsmanlike nature. | ||
==Examples== | ==Examples== |
Revision as of 21:24, December 23, 2016
- "CG" redirects here. For the Mario technique abreviated as "CG", see Cape glide.
A chain grab, also referred to as a chain throw or abbreviated as CG, refers to a series of grabs and throws that the victim cannot escape. Generally, a player throws the opponent a specific direction (most commonly down or forward), chases the opponent's directional influence, and grabs the opponent while they are still in midair and before they can tech. Sheik and the Ice Climbers are examples of characters who rely heavily on chain grabs. Due to the changes to hitstun and the more severe stale-move negation in Brawl, chain-grabbing is overall more prevalent. Generally, fastfallers, heavyweights, and large characters tend to be more vulnerable to chain grabs than floaty characters, lightweights, and smaller characters. Some circumstances can enable a chain grab to be a zero-to-death combo. The Ice Climbers are particularly potent at this.
Controversy
Chain grabbing is a controversial technique within the community. Many players (generally casual players) consider it an unsportsmanlike move because it can be inescapable when perfected by the grabber. However, competitive players generally see it as a valid technique, as it's simply a combo that is performed by regrabbing, and that characters like Sheik, the Ice Climbers, and King Dedede need it to overcome other deficiencies in high-level matches, provided it is not used in extreme excess to stall (i.e. using King Dedede's standing infinite beyond 300% damage, which is well beyond the damage needed for Dedede to KO the opponent with his back throw). Infinite chain grabbing, in particular, has a tendency to encourage more defensive gameplay and camping tactics, which is much more prevalent in Brawl. Since the Ice Climbers have the potential to zero-death any character, most players counter the risk of approaching them by camping, either by staying airborne or on platforms.
Possibly as a result of the controversy surrounding the technique, SSB4 has removed chain-grabbing by granting 60 frames of invulnerability against grabs to a character who is thrown or grab-released. Many fans argue about the change, but the general agreement is that it was for the best, perhaps due to the prior allegations surrounding its unsportsmanlike nature.
Examples
Characters with well-known chain grabs include the following.
Super Smash Bros.
- Pikachu: can chain most characters with its forward throw at low percentages.
- Donkey Kong : can chain all characters to extreme percents by release grabbing with his forward throw (known as the infinite throw trap). This technique caused moderate controversy within the Smash 64 community, as it was seen as "cheap" by some. Yoshi and Ness are the most difficult to get out of the chain grab due to their odd double jumps. Pikachu has by far the easiest time escaping because its up special, Quick Attack, has invincibility frames. Donkey Kong players usually do this in order to either set up a stronger or better throw (as each grab release does 8% damage) or to make it so DK is closer to the edge and can back throw instead of up throw, as the back throw has much more power.
- Fox: can chain throw forward and backward at low percentages.
The other main part of chain grabs can be seen on the "Combo Tent" portion of Hyrule Castle. Yoshi and Samus cannot do this due to their overly slow grabs (however, they can throw into a down aerial or a similar aerial to combo). Kirby, Ness, and Jigglypuff cannot do this due to their back throws having too much knockback to be able to combo before the opponent escapes hitstun. The majority requires down aerials and back throws. Here is a list of what each character can do.
- Pikachu: Isai's "Greenhouse" Pikachu combo: Multiple back throws into a back aerial, up smash, and then a Thunderspike for a Star KO. Alternately, multiple up tilts can be used to set up a grab, and a neutral aerial can also be used to knock the opponent into the wall, setting up an up tilt or grab.
- Fox: Back throw usually into a down aerial or forward aerial into another throw and at the end either an up aerial or an up smash at the end. Sometimes combined with forward throws, neutral aerials, or back aerials.
- Mario: Forward throw or back throw into down aerial into up smash. Sometimes combined with back aerials or neutral aerials.
- Captain Falcon: Back throw only, usually combined into multiple up airs into either up special or down air for an edgeguard. His combos are usually the most varied by the edge as virtually all of his moves can combo against a ledge.
- Luigi: Back throws, down aerial, up special, or down aerials, back aerial/forward aerial into up special/down special.
- Donkey Kong: Back throws or forward throws into up smash (back throws being non-cargoed and forward throws being cargo only). No aerials needed. The original wall combo and one of the reasons why Donkey Kong can excel on Hyrule.
Super Smash Bros. Melee
- Sheik: can chain throw most characters (Bowser, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Ganondorf, Pichu, Roy, Young Link, Mr. Game & Watch, Link, Ness, and Sheik) with her down throw from as little as 0% to medium or high percentages, as high as 90% if the opponent's DI is poor. On other characters, it can reliably tech chase to high percents. This doesn't work in the PAL version of Melee, however, due to her down throw sending her opponents on a more horizontal angle, disallowing regrabs except at very low percentages.
- Marth and Roy: Marth and Roy's up throw can chain throw Fox and Falco from 0% to about 60%. At very low percentages, they can pseudo-chaingrab with forward throw, though this is DI-dependent. Marth can also chaingrab Jigglypuff with forward throws and down throws until about 20%, depending on DI.
- Ice Climbers: can chain throw nearly every character in the game with hand-offs, edge throw exploits, and other traps, such as having Nana execute a down aerial as Popo down throws the opponent, forcing them to stand up and allowing them to be regrabbed again. Wobbling, which is inescapable when performed right, can trap an opponent forever or until the player kills them or messes up. Even without Nana, Popo by himself can chain throw a handful of characters, such as Roy, Sheik, and Ganondorf with down throw until about 50%.
- Peach: can chain throw fast fallers, floaty characters, and heavyweight at high percentages with her down throw. She can also chain grab with her up throw against everyone at 0% (briefly) and fast fallers at around 40%.
- Captain Falcon: can pseudo chain throw with down throw against Marth, Sheik, and Roy from 0% to about 20%. It can easily be escaped with good DI. Up throw can also chain throw Fox/Falco/Falcon from about 50% to about 80% if they don't DI away.
- Ganondorf: can chain throw a variety of characters with his down and up throws. Up throw works similar to Captain Falcon's, but at lower percentages. Down throw can chain throw characters with moderate falling speeds (such as Pikachu and Link) at low percentages and chain throws fast-fallers at high percentages.
- Luigi: Can chain throw Fox, Falco, Ganondorf (from 0% to about 30%) and Falcon with up throws and can chain throw Bowser, Ganondorf and Sheik with down throws at 30%.
- Peach, Pikachu, Pichu, Mewtwo, Fox, Mario, Dr. Mario, Marth, Roy, Donkey Kong, and Mr. Game & Watch can chain throw Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon with up throws, and at 100% Mr. Game & Watch, and (at 150%) Mario and Doctor Mario can chain throw the fast falling characters with down throws. Marth and Roy cannot chain throw Captain Falcon.
- Link can pseudo chain throw opponents at very low percentages with his forward throw; however, it is easy to DI out of.
- Mewtwo can chain throw with its downthrow on large characters like Bowser from 0-50%. Mewtwo can also chain throw fast fallers like Fox, Falco, Sheik, Captain Falcon and sometimes Roy, giving him an advantage against these characters. Ganondorf and DK are also vulnerable to its chain grab, but Mewtwo needs to run and then grab to be able to grab again (though Ganondorf is easier to chain grab than DK).
- Donkey Kong can chain throw Fox, Falco and Falcon with the up throw at low to mid percentages. Donkey Kong can also chain throw Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon with forward throw, then while carrying them, up throw.
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
- Bowser can chain grab by grab releasing the opponent. He can also grab release infinite Wario. However it needs perfect timing with dash grabs. Works on everyone except Donkey Kong and Ice Climbers together. This is an infinite chain grab when used against a wall until the opponent manages to jump break.
- Captain Falcon can air release Wario.
- Charizard can ground release Ness and dash regrab Lucas.
- Donkey Kong can also carry release infinitely against Ness and Lucas, guaranteeing success by turning before releasing and turn grabbing so Ness/Lucas releases in his back (turned grab). He can also chain grab with his down throw at lower percentages.
- Falco can chain grab with down throw at lower percentages against everyone except very floaty characters, usually giving around 42% to most characters, more to the heavyweights. It easily combos into dash attack (which when canceled to up smash it allows a total of 65% damage), or his down aerial, setting up an early edge-guarding situation. Most characters can be regrabbed with both dash grab and standing grab, but the floaty characters needs good timing and only the walking chain grab works. After the Chain grab percent, it works as a Tech-chasing move. His forward throw also can chain grab, like Fox and Wolf, at low percentages.
- Fox can chain grab with using his forward throw on most characters by buffering a dash grab at very low percentages.
- Ice Climbers can chain throw with their backwards, forward, and down throws on everyone except another pair of Ice Climbers. There are a lot of chain grabs that the Ice Climbers can perform such as the usual alternating grabs, grab spikes, footstool grabs, release grabs, and more. An Ice Climber player can make the chain grab "infinite" and "inescapable" when timing is 100% perfect, and can potentially do a zero-to-death combo. A lone ice climber can chain grab with down throws at lower percentages on most fast fallers like Fox. Note that if both Ice Climbers are present, they are considered to be "immune" to chain grabs, due to one climber being able to interrupt the opponent while the other is incapacitated. See here for more information.
- Ike can grab release Wario infinitely by pivot grabbing, but it needs nearly perfect timing, being extremely hard to pull off and Wario can mash out of his pummel to ground break until fairly high percents because of Ike's slow pummel. In walls, he can inescapably chain grab from low percents until high percents with his forward throw or if Ike is behind when Ike grabs him/her, a back throw to continue with forward throw.
- King Dedede chain grabs with down throws any character with weight 87 (Marth's weight) or heavier and at any percentage by running grab. Lighter characters are more difficult to chain grab this way, but can still be chain grabbed by predicting where they will fall. His down throw is one of the best attacks in the game for chaingrabbing. He can also chain grab against a wall infinitely and finish with a back throw. He does not need a wall to infinitely grab some characters, such as Mario, Luigi (cannot be dash or walk chain grabbed), Samus, and Donkey Kong, and infinitely chain grab Wolf and another King Dedede near the edge of stages. The down throw has set knockback, so the chain throw can be performed at any percent on characters it is effective against.
- Kirby can chain grab fast fallers with his down throw at low percentages. Can land a u-tilt between throws to add extra damage and finish with the f-throw to uair to bair combo. His forward throw can chain grab at low percentages too.
- Link can chain grab characters (most notably fast fallers) with his down throw at low percentages. In addition, his forward throw can be used to chain grab to around 20%, depending on the character.
- Lucario can chain grab fast fallers with his up throw at low percentages. In addition, Force Palm can chain at low percentages, though it can be escaped by DI.
- Ganondorf can chain grab at any percent with Flame Choke by predicting his opponent's action.
- Mario and Luigi can both chain grab with their forward throw across neutral stages, but only works at lower percentages.
- Marth can chain grab Fox and Falco with his forward throw 2 times (these 2 times can truly set up a tipped down air), then chain grab with his down throw 3 to 4 times, then set up a sweetspotted forward smash for 41%-45% damage. He can also infinitely grab release on Ness and Lucas. If Ness and Lucas was air released, he can follow up by using forward and up aerials. He can also set up a guaranteed tipper forward smash after a forward throw for 25% damage on most characters at 0%. His up special, Dolphin Slash, can help him escape from most chain grabs (except from Dedede's running chain grab, Falco's chain grab when buffered dash grab, though it limits it to 3 grabs and Ice Climbers' Infinite Chain Grab).
- Mr. Game & Watch, like Ganondorf with his Flame Choke, can infinitely chaingrab opponents with his down throw by predicting their rolls.
- Peach can dash regrab Ness and Lucas across the stage. She can also chain grab with down throws, turning around to grab the opponent against about half of the cast. She can set up Bair (almost every character and it must be buffered), up tilt, forward tilt or a uair string combo for a huge damage (must be buffered with dash). She can also chaingrab heavies with her forward throw at low percentages provided that one buffers a dash grab. She can infinitely chain grab air release Wario as well, by using a footstool jump on him upon release, followed by a float without using a midair jump, then a fast fall down aerial without the fourth kick landing, and ending with a grab.
- Pikachu can chain grab a multitude of characters by using buffered grabs out of its down throw and forward throw, sometimes alternating between them with a pummel to control Stale-Move Negation, some until percents as high as 115%. In addition, Pikachu can chain grab Wario on a ledge until 120%.
- Pit can chain grab with forward throws certain characters like Fox and Bowser, but it only works at lower percentages.
- Olimar can chain grab with his down throw. However, this chain grab is very situational. It only works at low percentages, but if it can be pulled off, it is a guaranteed 30% on the opponent.
- Samus can chain grab air release Wario by dash regrab.
- Sheik can air release most characters. With correct timing, she can follow up with Needle Storm, forward, up tilts or another dash grab at low percentage. At high percentage, she can follow with up smash (with jump canceled up smash or DACUS), forward and neutral aerials for a KO or another dash grab. She can also ground release Ness and Lucas and then dash regrab. If Ness and Lucas was air released, she can follow up by using forward and neutral aerials or up smash (by using jump canceled up smash or DACUS) at high percentage.
- Snake can chain grab everyone at any percent with down throw by predicting what action the opponent takes. Can do lots of damage if predicting well (does a 33% damage if predicting well and forward tilting the opponent). It's easier when close to the edge or in small platforms like the Battlefield ones due their lost of the ability to roll away from Snake, allowing Snake to tech-chase in reaction. Snake can also grab release chain grab characters like Ganondorf, Squirtle, Falco and Bowser (which needs to be boost grabbed, finishing with a Down Throw near the edge or just a dash attack. He can also infinitely grab release on Ness and Lucas as well. Because his Grenades appear in frame 1, this prevents some chain grabs like Pikachu's down throw.
- Sonic can chain grab at low to mid percentages with his down throw. Because it leaves the victim on the ground, Sonic can predict and chase where they will roll and re-grab them, this is further complimented with Sonic's insane dash speed (the fastest in the game). Although the opponent can tech before they hit the ground, this shouldn't be much of a problem due to Sonic's aforementioned very fast dash speed.
- Squirtle can grab release Ness at any percentage by forcing a grab release, taking a small step, and grabbing again.
- Toon Link can chain grab like Link with his down throw to around 25%-30%. His forward throw can chain grab characters as well.
- Wario can chain grab up to higher percentages with his down throw and buffering a turn-around and regrab on characters like Captain Falcon (0-70%), Ganondorf (0-90%), Wolf (20-220%), Falco (52-120%, from 73% the throw must be stale), Donkey Kong (0-145%; can jump out at 100-110%, though it requires considerable reaction) and Bowser (0-180%, can even hit with his Wario Waft out of the attack). However, buffering the turn-around grab is extremely hard to master, making it difficult to pull-off. At other percents or characters, it works as a tech-chasing move.
- Wolf can chain grab at lower percentages by buffering a dash grab with forward throw. Boost grab can be used to chain grab to slightly higher percentages. Certain characters can be grabbed more, like Falco. He can also infinitely grab release on Wario, but he must grab Wario after he uses his midair jump at the edge in order to do grab release.
- Yoshi can chain grab with grab releases, although it requires a pivot grab to grab them again when they come back down from the air. Called infinite pivot grabbing. Yoshi can also chain grab by using a forward throw.
- Zero Suit Samus can chain grab most characters with her forward throw. She can grab release infinite Wario and Squirtle, though like all air release infinites except the Yoshi one, it doesn't work at low percents because it makes them ground break.
Super Smash Bros. 4
In Super Smash Bros. 4, a new mechanic has been introduced, where after throwing, being thrown or escaping a grab, a player is immune to any grabs for one second, as mentioned in one of the tips. This makes chain grabs virtually impossible to perform, and it seems that this measure has been implemented as a direct counter to this technique from previous games, given its controversy. If a player can keep an opponent stuck in hitstun after being thrown with other attacks over this immunity period, it's possible to regrab the opponent again before they can react and set up a pseudo-chain grab. Luigi, Sheik, and Roy are examples of characters with notable combos involving this. Special moves involving grabs, such as Ganondorf's Flame Choke or Lucario's Force Palm, as well as Donkey Kong's cargo throws, do not count by the game as a grab for this mechanic, so characters can use a special grab to grab someone that was just thrown. This in particular allows Ganondorf to still perform pseudo-chain throws and tech chases with Flame Choke, as well as directly followup his down throw with Flame Choke.
Video
- DK's Release Grab on Kirby
- DK Chain Grabbing using walls
- Ganondorf Chain Grabbing Falco, 0% to death
- Ice Climber's Chain Grabbing Falco
- King Dedede Chain Grabbing Marth on Shadow Moses Island
- Marth Infinite Chain Grabbing Ness
References
http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbwu-3ds-luigi-chain-grab.379906/
http://smashboards.com/threads/shieks-chaingrab.371689/#post-17745129