Talk:Meteor smash/Archive 1

How did Falcos D-air get into the Meteor smash page, everyone knows thats a spike?????

if no response will remove in two days

Also what happened to the U-tilt for Samus, it has been proven to be a meteor smash?? 1/3/08 Shameus

Mr. Game & Watch

Does Mr. G&W's down throw count as a meteor smash? It sends his foe straight down, and I'm not talking about throws them down, but actually makes them go up, like most down throws. I've used it to send foes through the clouds in Skyworld, and sometimes, when I'm really close to the ledge, I can send them straight down to their doom. I'm going to add it if nobody can tell me why not to. Maxiscool (talk) 02:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

If it actually can be used to send opponents straight down through platforms, then it qualifies. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

If you want any proof go to the Combo/Gameplay video at the bottom of Mr. G&W's page. It is at the VERY end, about 8:17. Maxiscool (talk) 16:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Spikes?

If all Brawl Meteor Smashes can't be canceled, aren't they in fact spikes, and shouldn't the section be moved there?–Entrea Sumatae 19:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi...

Sorry but I've tried using Yoshi's D-air in Brawl as a meteor smash, and I don't see that it is a meteor smash at all. Even more disturbing is that the author commented that it was "the most powerful drill kick meteor smash". I'm not sure what game he's playing, but in SSBB, Falcos d-air is definitely the most powerful drill kick meteor smash by far. Yoshi's is pathetic compared to that. Am I missing something?

Possibly. The only time I got KOd with it, the Yoshi player just dragged me down with them. Cafinator (talk) 16:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, that's the only way you can kill with it. That would make it an "incredibly weak" meteor smash, rather than a "powerful" one.

It's "powerful" in the sense that it deals 33% if you hit with all hits. Its spike is rather weak and his Fair is marginally better. 202.156.13.238 12:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Contradictory much?

I honestly don't know much difference between Spikes and Meteor Smashes, but in the Spike article it clearly states that the sweetspot of the Wolf Flash is indeed a Spike. The contradiction is that this article states that Brawl has no true spike. So which is it? Shade487z/SeniorSombra! 03:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

A spike can KO an opponent at very low percentages, such as Ness' D-air. A meteor smash is something like Mario's F-air or Lucas' D-air that "pushes" an opponent in a downward direction, and like a regular attack, is easier to use on opponents with high amounts of damage. Blue Ninjakoopa 03:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. Does the "there are no spikes in Brawl as of yet" piece of info need to stay or not and if not what qualifies as a spike? Well...you kinda answered that last one. Shade487z/SeniorSombra! 04:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I guess it's ok if you removed it. Glad to be of service lol :) Blue Ninjakoopa 04:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

FINALLY! Someone explains the difference between spikes and meteor smashes! So a meteor smash is like a regular attack that powers up according to opponent's damage levels. Spikes can kill at low percentages. I hate how in these pages it uses technical terms and crap like "meteor cancelling" that no one can ever understand! Reptiliusofpeace (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Meteor canceling? You cancel the meteor. How hard is that? Shade487z/SeniorSombra! 21:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

And HOW do you cancel the meteor? Reptiliusofpeace (talk) 01:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

To meteor cancel, one must jump after approximately half of the meteor smash's hitstun has worn out. However mashing the jump button will only reset the time in which it is possible to meteor cancel. An easy alternative is to mash the up-special button with a character whose up-special in a recovery move. Y462 (T • C • E ) 01:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

So that's what that was? Should it be noted that the character canceling the meteor will glow white and sparkle as if he/she has just recovered health? 01:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

BNK, you're wrong about what the difference is. The difference in Melee was that spikes couldn't be meteor canceled. In Brawl, all spikes can be jumped out of after about half the duration of the hitstun. It's argued if this is "meteor canceling" or not, but it's irrelevant to the definition of a spike. The strength of the knockback also is irrelevant to its classification. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Wait, what? I didn't mean to give out any false information, sorry. I was trying to answer Shade's question the best I could. Blue Ninjakoopa 02:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think BNK was wrong (:P). Maybe spikes have a different definition than that, but there ARE certain "spikes" that kill at 0%, as well as those that power up over opponent's damage. He has a point. Reptiliusofpeace (talk) 20:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Spikes can kill even at the lowest percentages. The only thing that determines the chance of a meteor smash is the opportunity. Also, in Brawl, you can perform a meteor cancel much longer than in Melee; meaning, that the chances of meteor KOing the opponent has increased. SapphireKirby777 20:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. The damage that a move can kill at is irrespective of its classification as a spike vs. a meteor smash. Ganon's d-air can kill at 0% without a problem, but it can be meteor canceled, ergo it is a meteor smash, not a spike. Also note, as well as in response to the person below me, that the differences only appear in Melee. In SSB and SSBB the terms are used interchangeably as all moves classified by either of them have the same properties. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 19:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

So therefore the original has meteor smashes. That info is incorrect. Ike's Best Buddy/ Bird Of Prey^{Don't try me}

Even more contradiction

On several of the SSB character pages, including as an example, Kirby has 2, it states that the characters have spikes. On this page it states it was intro'd in melee. Can someone fix this please? Ike's Best Buddy/ Bird Of Prey^{Don't try me}

Hey i just noticed something

Wheres sonic on the list?

No Meteor Smash to speak of...same reason Sheik's not on the list. Shade487z 22:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

R.O.B.

Is R.O.B.'s down aerial a Meteor Smash or a spike?. In his page, on section "Atributes" states: "with his D-air acting as a Meteor Smash", and on the section "Moveset" says that his D-air is: "yet slow, but powerful, and can spike,...". I also noticed that Squirtle and Pikachu aren't in the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.153.152.213 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 10 August 2009

There are no Spikes in Brawl, only Meteor Smashes, so the Moveset section should say "and can meteor smash". Squirtle and Pikachu, among others, aren't on the list because they don't have meteor smashes - not every character has a meteor smash. PenguinofDeath 22:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Knockback

The knockback of a meteor smash is affected by characters falling speed, althought the difference is minimal. The faster falling speed, the stronger the knockback is. For example: if ROB uses his dair meteor smash against Jigglypuff (who has the slowest falling speed) hanging on the ledge of Final Destination stage, he will KO her at 27% , but if he uses it against King Dedede (with the fastest falling speed), ROB will KO him at 22%. It's worth adding it to the article? Ibermón (talk) 00:40, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Ness' down tilt

Omega Tyrant, Ness' down tilt is a meteor smash. It hits downward, not at an "80 degree angle". Please try using it with Ness, it is a spike. Please stop removing it. 98.111.95.78 04:54, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

I fully tested this attack, no matter how I hit Bowser at 999%, it sent him horizontally with the pull of gravity pulling him down, the definition of a semi-spike. When I tested it on the ground, it sent Bowser in the same trajectory, never popping him up like other meteors. How can it be good at edgeguarding anyway? It couldn't even send Bowser half the distance of Final Destination. This, combined with it's horrible reach makes it next to useless for edgeguarding. You are much better off using his dair or bair. User:Omega Tyrant 1:09, April 14, 2010 (Eastern Time)

You must be testing it wrong. Make sure you actually hit him when he was below you. For me, it clearly knocked him downward(straight). And it is useful. As it knocks your opponent slightly downward, you can follow up with a dair to KO. 98.111.95.78 05:20, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

I just tested it on Battlefield against Ganondorf and I still saw no proof it was a meteor smash. I was on a platform directly above Ganondorf, where I kept tripping him like the "sweetspot" is suppose to. But when I brought the damage up to 999%, it nevered popped him up like a meteor smash does and it sent him in the same semi-spike trajectory. I was directly above him when he was on the ledge, and it sent him in the same semi-spike trajectory, not in a meteor smash trajectory. Have you seen the graph on the semi-spike page? It perfectly describes the trajectory of his d-tilt. It may be useful for tripping opponents on the ground, but it is useless for edgeguarding. By the time it can produce any notable knockback, the oppononents would be well in the KO range for any of Ness's other attacks, not to mention the terrible reach of his d-tilt. I havn't seen it meteor smash and it is clearly a semi-spike. If you still dispute this, give me a detailed explanation on how you successfully tested it meteor smashing someone, don't just tell me it needs to be "sweetspotted". Omega Tyrant 1:40, April 14, 2010 (Eastern Time)

Meteor smashes don't knock someone up. They knock opponents downward, which it does. How is it a Semispike? Please show proof. 98.111.95.78 03:53, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

When someone is hit by a meteor smash while on the ground, they can't get sent down so they are sent straight up. As I said in the previous section, view the graph on the semi-spike page, it perfectly describes the d-tilt's trajectory. Omega Tyrant 4:27 April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I tested it out before I left when doing this; Ness' D-tilt was a semi-spike at best (999%). However, I didn't know there was a sweetspot for Ness' d-tilt. If you can, can you take a video/snapshot and post it somewhere? If we can see it, that probably would be good enough verification, no? RAN1 (talk • contributions) 04:41, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

I actually believe there is no sweetspot, but the unregistered contributer keeps insisting that it is a meteor smash, though my testing so far has proven it is a semi-spike. Omega Tyrant 4:55, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

edit conflict Well, I'd like to see what's his proof for this before we actually discount it. Since he's been around here for half a year now and quite the experienced contributor, I'm sure he'll be able to find some. RAN1 (talk • contributions) 05:05, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Please put up a video of your "testing". 98.111.95.78 05:01, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not own a video recording device. So if you want a video, the best I can do is if you trade wii codes and friend codes with me so I can send you a replay. Otherwise you'll have to tell me of a website or program that can decrypt replay files. You could instead post a video proving it's a meteor smash which would be better then me showing a video of hitting Ganondorf around with Ness's d-tilt. Omega Tyrant (talk) 05:13, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

In that case, we should find a video where Ness uses his down tilt on an air opponent. It shouldn't be too hard. 98.111.95.78 05:45, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

I just viewed some combo videos for Ness and none of them showed Ness using his d-tilt for edgeguarding. The fact of the matter is that his d-tilt is not a premier edgeguarder, especially when Ness has his awesome dair and bair. It is going to be rather difficult finding a video showcasing the edgeguarding prowess of his d-tilt. I would also like to thank you for the compliment about the Forward Smash Chart, no hard feelings. Omega Tyrant (talk) 06:32, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

One can argue the trajectory of a meteor smash but one cannot argue sheer numbers. A important aspect of meteor smashes is that they hit airborne opponents harder then grounded opponents. This applies to all meteor smashes except some special meteors and Charizard's dair. In the case of the special meteors, they just don't hit grounded opponents as a meteor, such as the Super Dedede Jump. In the case of Charizard, his dair actually hits grounded opponents harder. So I went and tested this on Ness's d-tilt against a 300% Jigglypuff. While on the ground, her launch speed was 1225mph. While on the ledge and in the air, her speed was again 1225mph. I boosted the damage ratio to 2.0 and again, all her launch sppeds were even at 2450mph. Just for comparision, I tested the launch speeds of Ness's dair, a well known meteor. Jigglypuff's speed on the ground was 9373mph. Her speed in the air and on the ledge was 12011 mph. As you can see, there is quite a difference. I also tested the launch speeds of Ganondorf's f-tilt, a well known semi-spike. Just like Ness's d-tilt, Jigglypuff's launch speed was the same on both the ground and in the air at 13023mph. As you can see, the ground/air law of meteor smashes doesn't apply to semi-spikes. All the data I collected indicates Ness's d-tilt is a semi-spike and not a meteor smash. Hopefully, this will be enough to convince you. Omega Tyrant (talk) 21:48, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Fine, you win. What does "mph" mean in this case though? 98.111.95.78 00:43, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

It's just the knockback units used by the game. It does not mean the presumed "miles per hour" or anything, it's just a bunch of letters. Toomai Glittershine The Table Designer 00:45, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Zelda

Am I the only person that noticed some idiot messed up Zelda's down air spike again, to the slow mo that keeps deleting it, it has a sweet spot if both opponents are in the air.It and ness's dair arguably have more power than any other one in the game. 0% ko

First of all, sign your comments. For Zelda'a dair, I do not know what you are talking about as the sweetspot is mentioned in the part about her dair. This is unless your talking about Melee, in which case you're wrong as it had no sweetspot, it was just a pitifully weak meteor. As for Ness's dair, again you are wrong. It has very high base knockback but very low knockback scaling. As a result, once you get to the 10% mark, Ganondorf's dair quickly exceeds Ness's as well as several other meteors such as Ike's dair and Olimar's dair (with the red Pikmin). Even at 0%, it is still not the strongest, Luigi's down taunt has even higher base knockback than Ness's dair. In Melee, Ness's dair was weaker so even though it worked the same in Melee, Ganondorf's dair was always stronger. When it come to grounded opponents, Ness's dair is by no means powerful, it doesn't even KO until around 200%. Before questioning the intelligence of the hard working people here on Smash Wiki, do your research properly. Omega Tyrant 05:26, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Kirby

Watch. His beam is a meteor smash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIXOZHxFjhA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Anon (talk • contribs) 00:18, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Sign your comments using ~~~~ Doctor Pain 99 (CTE) 00:21, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

No it is not a meteor smash, the video has it wrong. The Meta Knight on the edge was hit by the sword (which has the meteor smash hitbox), not the beam. Watch the video more carefully. Omega Tyrant 00:25, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, OK then. I have another thing to bring up though. I've seen no evidence that Eruption is a spike. I've tested it on an opponent grabing the edge of the stage several times, but it has never meteor smashed. I haven't seen any videos of it either, so I've come to the conclusion that it is not a spike. Mr. Anon teh awsome 00:28, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

I thought so once to, but I was hit by the meteor smash hitbox once. When I was fighting my brother who was Ike, I knocked him into air. As I was below him on the ground, he hit me with Eruption with the tip of Ike's sword. I was sent straight up with no fire effect, with less knockback than usual for Eruption. So it is a meteor smash, just a very difficult meteor to land. Omega Tyrant 00:34, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Did you mean straight down? :P BNK ^[E|T|C] 03:35, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

I was on the ground at the time, so I do mean straight up. Omega Tyrant 03:46, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oh. Were you spiraling? Has this ever been done in mid-air? We can't call it a spike unless there is proof that it sends you downward. Dr. Mario's Up Smash in Melee acted as a meteor smash/spike when it hit a foe while the two were on the ground, but when it hit in mid-air, it dealt regular upward knockback. BNK ^[E|T|C] 03:56, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

I'm certain this is a meteor. When a meteor hits a grounded opponent, it sends them upwards with weaker knockback. The normal hitbox of Eruption sends opponents upwards at an angle (about 80 degrees) with a fire effect. The hitbox I was hit by sent me straight up with no fire effect and with weaker knockback than usual. Also, there are meteors that can just hit grounded opponents, such as Samus' u-tilt or Jigglypuff's dair, though this is not necessarily the case with Eruption. Omega Tyrant 04:21, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Confirmed; Eruption has a non-fire meteor on grounded opponents. On aerial opponents, the hitbox launches at 85 degrees with fire instead. There is no meteor when the move is fully charged. Toomai Glittershine 12:35, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Wario

Does his bike really count as his meteor smash, since anyone can throw it? Mr. Anon teh awsome 19:19, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the bike has the Sakurai angle. So it's technically not even a Meteor Smash at all, even though it can serve the same purpose. Toomai Glittershine 19:25, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Nahmean dawg?

Yo, Toomai, what do you mean by "try it better"? Aight, I used Eruption on a foe exactly at the tip of the blade and she was still sent flying upward. The character wasn't too small (Peach), so it wasn't a difficult task, nahimsayin'? Does there exist, like, video evidence of this, perhaps? BNK ^[E|T|C] 00:36, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, you tested it. However, shouldn't your information be mentioned on the article? BNK ^[E|T|C] 00:37, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, I reverted your edit too fast. The move is only a meteor on grounded opponents, never on aerial ones. As such, even though it hits at 270 degrees, we shouldn't call it a Meteor Smash. Toomai Glittershine 00:57, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of the fact that it can only be landed on grounded opponents, it is still a meteor smash and must be mentioned. Half of the meteor smashes listed are impractical for actually meteor smashing an opponent, but they're listed anyway. For the sake of completeness, every single meteor smash must be listed, even if the meteor smash can never be landed on an airborne opponent. Omega Tyrant 05:52, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

"A Meteor Smash is a kind of attack introduced in Super Smash Bros. Melee that when it connects with an airborne opponent, it sends them straight down (or mostly downwards)." Based on this description, I disagree. The two sides of the argument are thus:

1. Is an attack a Meteor Smash because it sends aerial targets downwards?
2. Or is an attack a Meteor Smash because it can send targets downwards, even if it cannot do so on aerial opponents?

By comparing the bolded fragments, my opinion is that an attack that has a downwards angle on grounded opponents but not on aerial opponents is not a Meteor Smash - it does not fit the definition of a Meteor Smash as currently presented. As such, we should also mention impratical Meteor Smashes, because it doesn't matter how rare it is, it can still happen. Therefore, if you want to have moves like Eruption listed, you'll have to argue against the definition of the term - Eruption cannot Meteor Smash aerial opponents, full stop no argument, and thus does not fit the description and should not be included. Some users may think this conflicts with my earlier opinions, which it does, but this is my current opinion and thus the relevant one. Toomai Glittershine 12:56, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

The definition is not fully correct. The definition of a meteor smash is an attack that sends the opponent downwards and can be meteor cancelled. The definition has nothing to do with the opponent being airborne, the meteor smash effect is just more significant on airborne opponents. Time and time again I'm seeing people ignore the meteor smash effect on grounded opponents. Meteor smashes still effect them, just in a different way from airborne opponents. They can't be sent downwards since the physics of Smash Bros. prevents them from being knocked back through the platform they're standing on, which instead causes them to be knocked upwards with less knockback than usual. If an attack has a hitbox designed to be a meteor smash, it should be listed, regardless of whether or not it can be landed on airborne opponents. Samus' u-tilt is a notable attack that has a meteor smash hitbox that can only be landed on grounded opponents in both Melee and Brawl. For proof that it was a meteor smash, you would get the meteor smash bonus whenever you KO'd someone with it in Melee and behaves exactly like a meteor smash does on grounded opponents. While it can never meteor smash airborne opponents, the developers gave it a meteor smash hitbox and the game recognises it. If the game recognises it as a meteor smash, it is a meteor and therefore should be listed. The same would apply to Eruption. The game recognises that one hitbox as a meteor smash and it is not up to us to decide what the game recognises it as. The game recognises it as a meteor smash and therefore it gets listed on our list of meteor smashes. Omega Tyrant 13:16, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Just because the meteor smash is conditional does not mean that it should not be mentioned. It certainly should be noted that it can only spike grounded opponents, but it still counts. Footstool jumping only meteor smashes airborne opponents, yet it is cerainally a spike. Anon 20:01, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ness' Yoyo?

Is it a meteor? Look at this. Mr. Anon (talk) 23:48, 13 October 2010 (EDT)

<youtube>TJHtfk8gK1U</youtube>

No, that was a stage spike. Omega Tyrant 01:44, 14 October 2010 (EDT)

Yep, stage spike. You can tell because the impending angle indicator was pointing up and towards the stage. Toomai Glittershine 07:34, 14 October 2010 (EDT)

What angle indicator? Mr. Anon (talk) 20:30, 14 October 2010 (EDT)

Right before the Yoyo hits, you'll see something that aims up.--MegaTron1XD 20:32, 14 October 2010 (EDT)

Zelda´s Up-Smash (Brawl)

Really? Her Up-smash is a meteor smash like Pit? I already saw Pit meteor smashing an opponent with his up-smash (it usually happens in modes where the enemies´s launch resistance is decrease), but i never see her. Is it possible? Zero (talk) 04:51, 28 December 2010 (EST)

Toomai, who inserted it, has hacked Brawl to read and decipher the in game data (which is how he provided the moveset tables). As such, I would trust him. However, the practicality of this as an edgeguarding meteor smash is obviously nonexistent. Omega Tyrant 04:55, 28 December 2010 (EST)

Ok, thanks! Zero (talk) 04:58, 28 December 2010 (EST)

Change SSB64 Spike to Meteor smash

I don't think we should Mr. Anon, even though the website refers to them as a meteor smash, Spikes and meteor smashes have some very differential properties, but we'll just see what other users say.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 23:25, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

But meteor canceling wasn't even invented in SSB64. Really the term spike only has any meaning in Melee (an perhaps when refering to certain boss moves in Brawl). I'm overally indifferent on this issue, I just think this needs to be discussed. Mr. Anon (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

To be fair, the English SSB64 site (I'm assuming you're getting to it via web archive, yes?) is extremely inaccurate in a lot of its terminology. I wouldn't call it very reliable. Miles (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

I dunno about that Miles, the Japanese site also uses the term "meteor smash" (translated by Google as "meteosumasshu").

So, in my opinion, all of those downwards-hitting attacks in SSB64 should be considered meteor smashes, with the note that they cannot be cancelled in that game. Toomai Glittershine The SMASH-GINEER 09:29, 12 April 2011 (EDT)

Oh, the Japanese site says so -- that's more reliable. Sure. Miles (talk) 11:57, 12 April 2011 (EDT)

If you guys don't mind, I will do the moving myself. Mr. Anon (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2011 (EDT)

"Negligible meteor smash"

I'm sorry but why aren't Final Smashes considered notable meteor smashes? Mr. Anon (talk) 21:18, 14 June 2011 (EDT)

Because you are are required outside resources to use them (in this case, items). And since you're required an item to use it, it would never come up in competitive play. Omega Tyrant 21:33, 14 June 2011 (EDT)