Forum:Zeldasmash's new SSBM Tier List

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This is Zeldasmash's and Doc King's opinions for the upcoming 10th SSBM Tier List. Doc King has recently discovered that the MBR is going to make a new and updated tier list on a YouTube video.So we would like you all to give your full opinions on the tier list, where someone should be, etc.

10th SSBM Tiers
			Top Tier				High Tier
			1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Middle Tier							Low Tier					Bottom Tier
11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26

Videos

Here are some videos that you can look at to make up your mind about the new tier list! Doc King (talk) 01:11, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

• (Mewtwo) vs Lucky (Falco) Another Mewtwo goes higher video

DK higher on the tier list

Falcon higher on the tier list (watch from 3:05)

Mewtwo way higher on the tier list

Are you truly serious and unbiased about these two?

As much as I loathe Peach, I don't see how a character who had the tournament success that she had would drop from 5th to last. I also don't see how Mewtwo can go from 24th up to 10th on the tier list without any notable tournament success. Your video does not prove that Metwo is not bottom tier. One match alone does not show how good a character truly is. Omega Tyrant 02:33, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

We think that Mewtwo is a good character and he has a good chain grab ability which can help him keep up with other characters including the fast fallers (which include the the Top 5 and Roy). Zeldasmash (talk) 02:53, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Why is Fox #1?! Edit: Sorry, I thought this was the recovery tier list!Mr. Anon teh awsome 02:56, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Have you guys forgotten how light Mewtwo is despite being one of the largest characters in the game? Have you also forgotten the KO problems that he has? Also, Mewtwo chain throwing ability is far from being good enough to make up for these massive weaknesses. I do not want to get in a dispute about tier positions, but I do not see how character consistently in the bottom five would suddenly rise to the high tier in the #10 spot. Omega Tyrant 03:01, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Now wait, while I don't think Mewtwo should be that high, floatyness is not necessarily a bad thing. Floatyness makes a character harder to chain grab, and makes a character have a better recovery. While Mewtwo is suseptable to juggling, his up special, air dodge, and nair can protect him from that. As for Koing, Mewtwo has his throws and his down smash. Up smash is very usefull for racking up damage, and dair is a meteor smash. Shadowball is a powerful projectile, ans Confusion can stop opponents from recovering. Mr. Anon teh awsome 03:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Anon, the first part of your speech is fine but the rest needs some work. The hard thing about throwing is that you can't grab in midair. His d-smash can easily be dodged, and his u-smash can easily be escaped from, leaving Mewtwo vulnerable. His d-air is pretty hard to land correctly. Shadow Ball isn't a reliable kill move and for Confusion to work you have to be in front of the opponent.-Ivy73 03:50, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

While floatiness necessarily is not a bad thing, Mewtwo's large size still makes him vulnerable to combos and more importantly, causes him to get KO'd vertically at pathetically low percentages. As for juggling, his nair has very short reach, so it will not protect him from juggling moves that have good reach, such as Marth's fair and uair or Ganodorf's uair. For his KO moves, like I pointed out to you before, they all have problems. His throws tend to be situational. His up throw is ineffective against the prominent fast fallers. It is incapable of KOing Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon under 150%. As for his back throw, he has to be near the edge for it to have strong KO power. Otherwise, it is not fully reliable. As for his down smash, it is one of the slowest down smashes, have poor reach, and it strikes one side. His dair is a weak to moderate meteor smash that is slow, has a small hitbox, and is difficult to land. I don't know where you got the idea that Confusion can stop recoveries, but it certainly does not. Now for Shadow Ball, while it is strong enough to KO under 100%, it is a rather slow projectile and it is rather predictable. Omega Tyrant 03:52, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Well, his size can give him very good range so it can be harder to reach him for attacks and grabs. Peach is the lowest because of her very slow ground and air speed, slow recovery (although 7th place on the recovery tier list), which can make her easy to spike, and she is pretty light and weak. Come on people, don't underrate Mewtwo so much, he only has a couple of weaknesses like the other characters in the game and tournament popularity doesn't prove a character is better than another character. So popularity is not on this tier list. Doc King (talk) 15:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Fine. Give reasons on IRC on how Peach is worse than Pichu and how Mewtwo is that good. =\. Size doesn't matter for range. He is easily hit by moves, and he's light as well, making him easy to KO. 3 of his special moves are predictable and size makes him easier to attack and grab. Even though his grabs are good, he has a bad approach, and in REAL tourneys, KO potentials matter. I think he's one of the best dudes in Melee because I was biased, and truly, I'm better with Roy and Marth because of my counter instincts. You guys also like Mewtwo, which leads us to belive it's biased. Alos, Peach isn't the way you describe her. She has FAST AIR SPEED! Okay? Apparently, you don't know the definition of fast. She's good in the air, can recovery very well, she can chain grab, turnips are useful, and Toad is a good way to block. And you guys also don't like Peach.--MegaTron1XD 15:08, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Give the reasons here, not on IRC. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:17, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. Forgot this was a serious forum.--MegaTron1XD 15:34, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ok Clarinet Hawk I'm giving the reasons here! Ok so you said that Peach has good air speed. That is of course not true, it is way too slow. Also you argued that Mewtwo is easy to KO when Peach only weighs 5 more pounds than Mewtwo and she is very tall when Ness is 94 pounds and he is way shorter, which makes Peach a lot easier to KO than Ness, Doc, Mario, etc. Also you said that Mewtwo is easy to KO when he has the 3rd best recovery in the game and he has teleporting moves that can help Mewtwo escape from attacks and grabs and it forces the opponent to use a lot of mindgames. Also Peach is light, tall and floaty too so you can't argue about Mewtwo's weight, size, and floatiness. And also get this, Peach is the biggest luck issue in the game so you can't perdict the outcome of her forward smash or her turnips. Also Peach's moves are kind of laggy and very weak. So overall Peach is a bad character and is way too overrated and Mewtwo is a good character that is way too underrated! So Peach above Falcon!? Are you kidding me?! And Mewtwo in Bottom tier?! Come on people, you can do a lot better than that!!!!! Doc King (talk) 16:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Have you tried SSBM lately? Test it. You will see that her air speed is fast in comparison to others. It's fast in comparison. It looks slow compared to Fox, but still. Pounds don't matter as well, as Mewtwo is extremly heavy in the pokemon game and you can't detect pounds anyway. Height don't matter as well, unless the character is really light as well. Recovery doesn't always matter, as you could knock him off the stage AGAIN. Teleporting moves? Only his air dodge teleports and Up special. And both leave him helpless in air. Anyone can side step and air dodge, Mewtwo just does it longer. Big deal. Peach is not as light as Mewtwo, Mewtwo is somewhat taller, and Peach can choose to be floaty at times =\. Luck issues huh? Prat Falling's luck as well in SSBB. I'm using an SSBB example to tell you that luck can be bad or good. Only 2 moves rely on luck. And the turnips are still good projectiles. Mewtwo is by far lighter and taller than Peach and has to be floaty all the time. That let's him be juggled easily. He dodges in midair, falls helplessly, the opponent then up smashes and dead =\.--MegaTron1XD 16:15, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

What the heck are you talking about?

Exactly where in that video in the top post do you see anything about a new tier list? I watched it (good match) but didn't see anything about a new tier list. Was it in a comment? If so, we should still verify it through SmashBoards as I've never before heard of them posting on Youtube before SmashBoards... Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:41, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

It was in the comments in the 4th row. Zeldasmash (talk) 10:20, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

So? "I heard they're going to make another tier list". =\. No REAL proof. No link to smashboards talking about it, nothing. Just saying I heard makes it non accurate.--MegaTron1XD 14:24, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Cool, I see the comments. Maybe they will make another list, but I can guarantee you it won't look like this. First, there is no way Peach drops to the bottom. Maybe her and Falcon or Samus switch places, but otherwise, she'll stay high up. I also think you've got the Ice Climbers too low, although it really depends on if the individual tournament allows Wobbling. If it does, they shoot up. Mewtwo has no business being where you have him. He is large, floaty, and incredibly slow in the air, which is also where almost all of his good moves are. Yes, he might be better than Pichu and Kirby, maybe Ness, but that's about it. I've see the videos of people playing him well. I've also seen the videos of M2K 4 stocking crap like that. Azen and Taj (two of the best Mewtwo players in the world) don't use him when the games count. That should say all that it needs to. As for the others, I think Bowser has enough in him to be in Low, not bottom, and I think you have Jiggly too low. Also, I would flip Young Link and Roy. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:16, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Check this out!Doc King (talk) 15:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

K, that dude has Mewtwo higher than I would, but basically everything else is what I said. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:27, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

I just don't want Mewtwo to be bottom tier anymore cause he deserves to be in middle tier! Doc King (talk) 16:07, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Well, there's your problem. You see, tier lists are not about "want". They are about "are". That is, they're not about opinion, they're about fact. It does not matter whether a character deserves X, what matters is whether it is X. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 16:14, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

=\

The list itself has incorrect links, and how is Pichu NOT THE WORSE?!?--MegaTron1XD 06:00, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Great recovery (5th place on the recovery tier list), small size and very light weight which makes him the hardest to Fox shine combo, and pretty good speed overall. He's still considered one of the worst characters in the game so don't get too exited (he only moved up 2 spaces). Doc King (talk) 15:09, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Recovery harms him. A counter matchup doesn't mean anything. He's the lightest and smallest. He should be last =\. Still don't agree with Mewtwo. A vid is a vid. Nothings at stake in that vid. Should have countered you during your conversation.--MegaTron1XD 15:33, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ice Climbers higher

Hey, Zeldasmash, I think the ice climbers should move higher becouse of their infinate chain throws that are impossible to get out of and they have Good recovery. Doc King (talk) 15:12, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

They should. They were 8th before. -_---MegaTron1XD 15:17, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. 11th place where Jigglypuff is. Zeldasmash (talk) 15:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Thats better! Doc King (talk) 15:23, July 10, 2010 (UTC)