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Forum:Disclaimer template for controversy sections on smasher articles: Difference between revisions

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Forum:Disclaimer template for controversy sections on smasher articles (edit)

Revision as of 20:24, March 18, 2021

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Undid edit by Omega Tyrant: This is how these discussions are normally handled, as it makes it easier to track arguments. Remember that this isn't a vote count
m (Moving yet another argument to comments, when directly responding to someone's "vote", please do so in the comments, as it otherwise clutters up the "voting" sections)
(Undid edit by Omega Tyrant: This is how these discussions are normally handled, as it makes it easier to track arguments. Remember that this isn't a vote count)
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===Neutral===
===Neutral===
#I like the idea of this, but I do not like the way you've worded it. ''The inclusion of these allegations is not an endorsement of their validity'' makes it sound way too much like "we know this isn't true but we're leaving this here anyway" (which obviously isn't true). I am not sure how I'd like it worded, but this isn't it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 15:21, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
#I like the idea of this, but I do not like the way you've worded it. ''The inclusion of these allegations is not an endorsement of their validity'' makes it sound way too much like "we know this isn't true but we're leaving this here anyway" (which obviously isn't true). I am not sure how I'd like it worded, but this isn't it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 15:21, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
#:I'm really not sure how you would arrive at that interpretation, but regardless, as I said the wording isn't final, and is simply an example of the kind of thing it would say, so do let me know if you come up with a better way of wording it. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:43, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
#::I also think that wording needs to be changed, but like SK, I cannot think of a better way of wording it at this time. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 18:40, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
#:::Ok, I'm assuming the problem with the current wording is the perceived lack of neutrality. I have written a more neutral version of the disclaimer: '''"The following section contains a record of allegations made against a person or group of people. Their inclusion on this Wiki is neither an endorsement, nor a condemnation of, either the allegations, or any of the parties involved. Per our disclaimer, [[SW:DISCL|SmashWiki cannot guarantee the validity of the allegations listed]], nor should it be taken as an authority on the issue."''' I think this wording could also serve as a better representation of where we stand from a liability perspective as well, but my main concern is that we minimize the harm that our Wiki may inadvertently cause. Thoughts? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:06, March 18, 2021 (EDT)


===Comments===
===Comments===
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:::Stating that an allegation exists doesn't bypass "innocent until proven guilty" or anything like that. All we're doing is the same thing you'll see journalists do where articles will use phrasing like "alleged" or "claimed" rather than anything more definite. We are not the arbiters of whether a cited accusation is "supported" enough or not, nor should we be. Your proposal would imply accusations are false until "proven" true, which is as undesirable as the other way around especially in this context. Far better to simply state the facts ("allegation exists", "XYZ was banned", "XYZ disputes things", etc.), cite our sources, and allow the reader to come to their own conclusions without us feeling the need to prejudice their opinion. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:15, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
:::Stating that an allegation exists doesn't bypass "innocent until proven guilty" or anything like that. All we're doing is the same thing you'll see journalists do where articles will use phrasing like "alleged" or "claimed" rather than anything more definite. We are not the arbiters of whether a cited accusation is "supported" enough or not, nor should we be. Your proposal would imply accusations are false until "proven" true, which is as undesirable as the other way around especially in this context. Far better to simply state the facts ("allegation exists", "XYZ was banned", "XYZ disputes things", etc.), cite our sources, and allow the reader to come to their own conclusions without us feeling the need to prejudice their opinion. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:15, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
::::No, it absolutely isn't. The disclaimer serves as a warning against treating our listing of the allegations as a comment on their validity. It is well known that simply stating that someone was accused of a crime triggers a bias against that individual, and when it comes from a source that people trust, this effect is amplified. We can't simply pretend that we're not causing this to happen, nor can we fool ourself into believing that the average reader has ever read the generic disclaimer article, or if they have, that they will be taking it into account when reading about such allegations. This is not an issue we can afford to be complicit in. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 11:24, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
::::No, it absolutely isn't. The disclaimer serves as a warning against treating our listing of the allegations as a comment on their validity. It is well known that simply stating that someone was accused of a crime triggers a bias against that individual, and when it comes from a source that people trust, this effect is amplified. We can't simply pretend that we're not causing this to happen, nor can we fool ourself into believing that the average reader has ever read the generic disclaimer article, or if they have, that they will be taking it into account when reading about such allegations. This is not an issue we can afford to be complicit in. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 11:24, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
@SK: I'm really not sure how you would arrive at that interpretation, but regardless, as I said the wording isn't final, and is simply an example of the kind of thing it would say, so do let me know if you come up with a better way of wording it. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:43, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
:I also think that wording needs to be changed, but like SK, I cannot think of a better way of wording it at this time. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 18:40, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
::Ok, I'm assuming the problem with the current wording is the perceived lack of neutrality. I have written a more neutral version of the disclaimer: '''"The following section contains a record of allegations made against a person or group of people. Their inclusion on this Wiki is neither an endorsement, nor a condemnation of, either the allegations, or any of the parties involved. Per our disclaimer, [[SW:DISCL|SmashWiki cannot guarantee the validity of the allegations listed]], nor should it be taken as an authority on the issue."''' I think this wording could also serve as a better representation of where we stand from a liability perspective as well, but my main concern is that we minimize the harm that our Wiki may inadvertently cause. Thoughts? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:06, March 18, 2021 (EDT)
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