Talk:Wavedash

Brawl, it's possible. I've done it

• Double Jump
• fall backwards at the diagonal
• Air Dodge near the bottom

takes forever, and it honestly isn't practical. But it is still in. User:Max2/Sig

That's a Waveland, not a Wavedash. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

really? I thought Wavelanding just made you land on a jump-through platform faster. User:Max2/Sig sorry then.

"Contrary to some belief, wavedashing is not a glitch, but instead is completely explainable by the physics system in the game, despite being an unintended physics byproduct."

Unfortunatly I have to disagree with this statment because a completely explainable by the physics system in the game, despite being an unintended physics byproduct, is the very definition of a glitch because the result was unintended thus yes, this is a glitch.

By your defininition Windows never has glitches all of the behaviour is perfectly explainable behaviour based on how the code was written, the result wasn't inteneded but it was the natural result.

70.57.50.190 10:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Wavedashing is NOT a glitch!

A glitch is an error in programing. It has no real explanation on why it happens. Samus' Super Wavedash and Link's Super jump are glitches.

Wavedashing however has an explanation on why it happens. The sudden momentum from an airdodge is transfered to the ground, causing a slide. That is part of the physics engine. If a character is spiked to the ground diagonally, their body will slide a bit. Even happens in Brawl.

The developers programmed the slide, but they didn't think it would give any advantage, so they left it in Melee. This would make Wavedashing a physics exploit at best.

STOP CALLING WAVEDASHING A GLITCH! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MetaXzero (talk • contribs) 20:43, June 19, 2008

Unintended=glitch. - Gargomon251 (talk) 05:16, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, he's right. Wavedashing is a necessary byproduct of the game physics engine and is not a glitch. It can be calculated based on momentum and traction and falls directly into the normal programing. The definition of a glitch is something that cannot be explained by the programing of the game. Therefore, wavedashing is not a glitch. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 05:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

By the very definition of a deterministic machine, every single aspect of a game can be somehow explained by its programming, even something like the super wavedash, so this definition of "glitch" is wishful thinking. Any behavior which deviates from the indented is a glitch. --Nknk (talk) 02:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Couple problems with that last statement. (A) How do you determine intent? (B) That's not the right definition of a glitch; a glitch is some malfunction of game programming. Wavedashing is not a malfunction, but rather a byproduct of the use of programmed and correctly functioning elements (C) Everything can be explained by the programming, but unless you're looking at the code and you find something that actual programmers couldn't, there's no basis on which you can make that judgment. Semicolon (talk) 06:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(A) How do you determine intent?

Only the original developers can, of course. And this is exactly why wavedashing is such a debated feature: some think it was intentional, some think it was accidental. Ever heard "it's not a bug, it's a feature"? This describes the conflict of expectations between the developer and the user.

(B) That's not the right definition of a glitch; a glitch is some malfunction of game programming.

You are just saying the same thing, really. How do you define "malfunction"? Yeah, one thing malfunctions when it behaves differently from what it was originally intended. Even when one just wants to hurt others, a gun does not "malfunction" when it kills people, because that was its original intention. No matter how one intended to use it, the weapon was designed to be lethal, so it might be an accident on the shooter's part, but it's not a malfunction.

Wavedashing is not a malfunction, but rather a byproduct of the use of programmed and correctly functioning elements

The interaction between several "correctly functioning" individual elements can still produce incorrect function. The code to Jigglypuff's final smash was presumably supposed to be correctly functioning. The code which cancels movements due to landscape changes was also supposed to be correctly functioning. But the particular interaction between these two on a certain timing was not originally foreseen, and the result is now known as Gigaluff.

(C) Everything can be explained by the programming, but unless you're looking at the code and you find something that actual programmers couldn't, there's no basis on which you can make that judgment.

As I said: the final judgement whether something is a bug or not lies on who defined the original expectations. Sometimes it's very easy to guess whether they were intended or not — applications crashing and freezing, for example, are quite "obviously" unintended. Other times it's not so intuitive — it might be counter-intuitive, even (say, a certain application might want to purposefully crash on some very rare scenarios). Judging by all the discussion that goes over it, wavedashing is an example of an unintuitive aspect, where it's not easy to know if it was intended/desired or not. --Nknk (talk) 07:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I myself have read somewhere that wavedashing was put in on purpose. - Amycats2 (talk) 02:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

from what i understood, wavedashing was intended to be a technique explained in the manual, but the way it looks just seems glitchy. Kperfekt722 (talk) 02:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no way the developers intentioned on a technique which allows some characters to move faster even than their normal run. That's my opinion. Zixor (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Again wavedash is a physics exploit. A glitch is an error in programming. The slide from an airdodge is part of the physics. They didn't intend for this to be a technique, so its a exploit, NOT a glitch.

Sakurai even admitted back in April that he knew about it in Melee before release as well (google the interview and paste the link someone). —Preceding unsigned comment added by MetaXzero (talk • contribs) 03:21, November 14, 2008

http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Get-Your-Tournament/Report-Sakurai-knew-about-wavedashing-took-it-out-to-even-the-playing-field here's a link... Friedbeef1 Screech 03:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

MetaXzero, if you have no knowledge in either software development or project management, it'd help if you didn't start making things up.

Regarding your claim on the interview, I found this: [1], where the following is quoted:

Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period.

Pay attention to the word "noticed". You don't "notice" things you just intentionally created. You won't see Sakurai saying "yeah, I noticed Mario was a playable character". This quote actually settles for once the fact that it was an unintended behavior.

Then, if it was unintended, why didn't they "fix" it? Because they had limited resources. Fixing it is probably not a five-minute task, and it's not very wise to waste time on it when, say, half the moves of a character are not working. If you think programs are only released when they have no bugs, you couldn't be further from the truth: it's nearly impossible to fix every single known issue in a sufficiently large system. There were over 50,000 known bugs (not counting the ones which were reported but not acknowledged by the developers) in the Mozilla code base back in June, some of them almost ten years old, but somehow that didn't stop them from releasing Firefox 3. And like Sakurai said, it didn't have a very high priority (but since it had one to begin with, it means he'd take it off if he had the time, proving then that not only it wasn't intended, but it wasn't desired either).

And finally, regarding your weasel words for "it's part of the physics", I'll repeat: computers are deterministic machines. That means every aspect of software is a consequence of its mechanics, intended or not. Yes, even Gigaluff is a byproduct of the game's mechanics. You can't justify anything by that. --Nknk (talk) 06:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The slide from the Melee airdodge is the same as the slide from being slammed into the ground at an angle. Are you going to claim that is unintended too (even though that is in ALL Smash games)?

Also, hacking Melee's airdodge into Brawl reveals that wavedashing is still possible. They didn't remove wavedashing, they changed the airdodge to render it impossible.

Glitches=error in programming (Samus Superwavedash, Ness yo-yo glitch, Ice Climbers freeze glitch). Physics exploit=unintended result of the physics engine doing WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TOO! (Wavedash as an Advanced Technique).

If they didn't intend the slide itself, PAL versions shouldn't have had it and Brawl shouldn't show it's STILL THERE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MetaXzero (talk • contribs) 20:29, 22 November 2008

^ so heres a good example": you know how floaty Luigi is right? so have Mario hit Luigi at like 50% with a down smash and have Luigi crouch cancel the hit. Luigi then SLIDES across the stage... if you take out wavedash (if one calls it a glitch), then theoretically, luigi should NOT slide because you are taking out the physics of the game. it's definitely not a glitch, but a physics exploit. Maybe it wasn't intended, but if you take it out, its getting rid of the essential metagame; why don't we take out DI with it? you weren't intended to do some things with- just watch perfect control by superdoodleman.68.158.137.6 14:25, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Wavesmashing

How do you wavesmash? Wavedashes don't seem to last long enough for me to attack. Do you have to wavedash multiple times simulatiously to attack while wavedashing? Am I just not fast enough? This information should be included in the article. Mr. Anon (talk) 00:11, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Wavesmashing is rather simple, you just do a smash attack while you're sliding. Obviously there's only enough time to do so with the C-stick. Toomai Glittershine The Stats Guy 02:36, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Definition of glitch

"A problem affecting function; a bug; an imperfection; a quirk; A bug or an exploit; To experience an intermittent, unexpected, malfunction; To perform an exploit or recreate a bug while playing a video game". (e.g. in smash community, Wavedash=Physics exploit = glitch, Gigaluff=Sequence breaking exploit i.e. hitting the wall when growing to exit upcoming 'shrink' process = glitch, Name Selection glitch = equivalent function exploit = glitch). --81.103.186.25 10:45, 14 October 2010 (EDT)

I may be wrong, but I believe since the sliding from an airdodge was included in the game intentionally, it's not a glitch. The definiton of a glitch is a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers. While Wavedashing is behavior not intended by the programmers, the cause is an exploit in the game physics, not a programming error. Doctor Pain 99 (CTE) 13:00, 14 October 2010 (EDT)

Wavedashing as a glitch

As I stated in my edit, "glitch" needs to be clarified before you can say "Wavedashing is not a glitch". If you define glitch as an "unintended byproduct of game coding", then Wavedashing may qualify. Mr. Anontalk 13:19, 16 December 2011 (EST)

Have you read the previous arguments here about it? Wavedashing is not a glitch, and is a natural result of the game physics relating to traction. Omega Tyrant 14:10, 16 December 2011 (EST)

Again, a large amount of these arguments revolve around clarification of "glitch", and whether or not wavelanding was an intended part of the physics engine. Mr. Anontalk 16:34, 16 December 2011 (EST)

Sliding is indeed an intended part of Smash Bros.'s physics. Whether or not the developers intended for players to exploit sliding via air dodge is irrelevant. Omega Tyrant 17:01, 16 December 2011 (EST)

I think the best term for wavedashing is exploit, defined by Wikipedia as "the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers" - later down it explains the "game mechanics" type of exploit as being "not a bug—it is working as designed, but at the same time is not working as intended". To me this fits wavedashing more than any other term. Toomai Glittershine The Frivolous 17:52, 16 December 2011 (EST)

Exactly, the developers designed sliding into Smash's physics, and players found a way to exploit it by wave dashing into the ground at an angle. Omega Tyrant 18:41, 16 December 2011 (EST)

A quick question

Is there a technique called "wavejabbing", or something like that? Smashdude10 12:20, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

I don't believe so. I don't think this follows SW:TALK, though. Red (Talk) 12:49, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

How is asking something relating to the technique against SW:TALK? And the term "wavejabbing" could probably be used in the same context as "wavesmashing", as explained in the wavesmashing section on the article. Wavesmashing is just much more popular and common. Scr7(talk · contribs) 12:58, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

I though pages were for talking about the article itself, though. Red (Talk) 13:18, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

This question relates to the article's sections about variations of wavedashing, such as wavesmashing in this case. Scr7(talk · contribs) 13:20, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

Ah, sorry about that. Red (Talk) 13:21, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

You can do any grounded option out of a wavedash, be it a smash attack, a tilt, a jab, a dash dance, a shield, or a grab. The term "wavesmash" is actually obsolete these days. People just say "wavedash back, forward smash" or "wavedash, down smash" to refer to a situation where one does a move out of a wavedash.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 15:28, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

possible misrepresentation.

"As a result of the controversy, multiple mods for the game, such as Project M, re-added wavedashing to the game."

Not sure this is the right way of putting it. After all project M is not just "Brawl with wavedashing". It sees itself as, and sorta is, an entirely separate game based on hacking the brawl engine, rather than a modified Brawl. The only mod I know of that sees itself as a modified Brawl and not as an entirely separate game that just happens to be based on a modified brawl engine is Balanced Brawl, and that doesn't have wavedashing. Generally mods don't add in wavedashing except as a comprehensive effort to rework Brawl into a "Melee 2.0".

Now if there is a mod, that I don't know about, that simply "re-adds" melee-style airdodges/wavedashing to brawl without changing much else, maybe it should be used as an example, instead a mod that sees itself as an entirely new smash game that happens to be more similar to melee than to brawl but ultimately is its own separate thing.70.198.130.85 04:29, 6 May 2014 (EDT)

Yoshi & Ness

Wait a second, according to the list that names the distance of all wavedashes of the game from the longuest to the shortest, Yoshi has the 5th longuest wavedash in the game, while in his Melee page, it saids that his wavedash is short. Furthermore, it saids that Ness has an above-average lengthed wavedash, being the 11th longuest, but again in his Melee page, it saids that his wavedash is short. I'm lost! YoshiKong (talk) 21:36, 12 December 2014 (EST)

Wavedashes of Marth & Roy

Even though the two share the same traction, Marth's wavedash goes slightly farther than Roy's in Melee. Why is that? - Drilly Dilly (talk) 03:42, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

WD has more factors than just traction. I believe air-dodge distance, weight, jump speed, and fall speed all play a part. As Roy is heavier, he WDs shorter (I am not 100% sure on this though). Serpent∞King (talk) 03:50, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

That's why Luigi's is so good, aside from his low traction. He's light with really low fall speed, and he air dodges long. Serpent∞King (talk) 03:55, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

Roy is lighter than Marth. Also, green-hat man is middleweight. - Drilly Dilly (talk) 10:34, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

Ah, right. But Roy is a fast faller. Serpent∞King (talk) 10:48, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

Reflecting on it, Weight probably has nothing to do with it. Jump speed (how long it takes to get the character off the ground) affects the frequency of how often you can wavedash (slower jumpers like Link require a slight 3 frame pause before airdodging). The fall speed and traction will be determinants of length. Serpent∞King (talk) 10:52, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

Controversy

I believe we should mention it, and we can without being subjective. We could essentially say that it stirred up controversy among people who believed the technique added more depth, which would be stating facts entirely and not omitting relevant information (feel free to improve it and word it in an encyclopedic manner, though; I'm just summarizing what the page would say). Nyargleblargle (Talk  · Contribs) 18:55, 5 September 2015 (EDT)

Yeah. I was thinking about anyone should rewrite the controversy section up to Wikipedia:Controversial articles standards without subjective. Luigi540 (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2015 (EDT)

"Super dash technique"

The second external link (which is dead by the way, but the page can be found on web.archive.org) claims that wavedashing is referred to somewhere in Melee itself as the "super dash technique". Googling the phrase together with "melee" brings up only results where that same paragraph has been copy-pasted into other Melee FAQs. Does anyone know whether there's any truth to it? I can't find any evidence, but it's an odd thing to make up. Could be related to the LANDFALLSPECIAL myth/confusion? 155.33.133.0 14:12, 18 May 2018 (EDT)

Never heard of such a thing, most likely fabricated. Serpent  King 14:55, 18 May 2018 (EDT)

Samus Super Wave Dash

I do not see term mentioned in main article section even though comments mention it. Is it on separate article? Tyciol (talk) 21:55, January 4, 2022 (EST)

It has its own article at the moment (super wavedash). --CanvasK (talk) 22:03, January 4, 2022 (EST)

Definition of "Wavedropping"

"Wavedropping is essentially the same as wavedashing except that the character doesn't move in any direction." This definition seems proprietary and contradicts several influential community members' usages of both the term "wavedropping," and the meaning "wavedash in place," respectively. 8 years ago, Lucky made a video on SSBM Tutorials on "wavedashing down," the act of wavedashing in place, which seems synonymous to what this section refers to as "wavedropping." 5 years ago, DacDacBruce made a video discussing a completely different technique pivotal to Hungrybox's playstyle, which he referred to as wavedropping," the act of wavedashing on a platform, and then dropping from the platform, typically followed by aerial drift and an aerial. This definition seems more intuitive especially because it actually involves platform dropping.