Template talk:Symbol/Archive 1

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Change default symbol from Special Stages to Other: Part 0

So yesterday I edited this template to change the default symbol to the ellipsis from Ultimate. But I realized I may have jumped the gun, so after fixing the links to this template to make sure Melee's Battlefield has the appropriate symbol, I changed this template back to the Special Stages symbol to wait for consensus. But I think I should have let an admin undo my edit? Well, I'm not going to do a self-edit war. So, I'm going to just ask in the fourth talk page to have this discussion for permission. The Special Stages symbol have been our placeholder symbol for characters from a minor universe for years. And now that Super Smash Bros. Ultimate uses an ellipsis for both music and spirits from minor universes and the Other series symbol has been uploaded, should we change our default symbol to that? Battlefield was a Smash original stage that was never meant to represent any minor games so the usage of Battlefield's symbol for minor characters does feel odd to me. The three dots you see when you have a character in your spirit party like Spring Man should be the shape under his image on his article, not the shattered ball that was exclusive to Melee's Battlefield. And even for content pre-Ultimate, if it goes under "Other" series, it should have Ultimate's "Other" symbol because Battlefield is not an "Other" property and Geno had the mushroom symbol before he was categorized in the Mario series spirits. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2019 (EST)

I agree. I don’t know how to change it, since the site’s internal code lists the special stages symbol as “other”. If anybody could change that file’s image, then renaming the current “symbol|other” as “symbol|specialstages”, then that would be great. 184.181.102.188 22:56, 14 January 2019 (EST)

I agree，it's obvious.--Capstalker (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2019 (EST)

I'm just waiting for an admin's permission. I can go ahead and change it if I'm that impatient, but I don't want my edits to be reverted or be given warnings. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2019 (EST)

Okay, so I caved again and Miles reverted it. Why is the one used for a Smash original stage better suited than the ellipsis? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:59, 20 January 2019 (EST)

For two main reasons:

1. An ellipsis doesn't even remotely resemble the style of the other series symbols, and as such isn't even immediately recognizable as being one or having any particular meaning.
2. It's not even used in the context you're using it for, as it's used for Ultimate's sound test even for songs that are part of established character/stage universes with symbols such as Ice Climber, Duck Hunt, etc. It's not used for miscellaneous spirits, either.

The Melee Battlefield logo isn't a 100% perfect fit for this usage but the ellipsis is a much much worse choice, by my judgment. Miles (talk) 19:25, 20 January 2019 (EST)

Actually it is used for miscellaneous spirits. While it is absent when you check the Spirit inventory, many users have pointed out that it is seen when you put an "other series" character as your primary spirit in World of Light. I have checked myself with Shantae, Spring Man and Prince of Sablé and it is indeed true. When you put Shantae in your party, you should see a green translucent ellipsis where her series symbol should be. And that's only in World of Light and Spirit Board. When you go to Team Setup in Collection, the ellipsis symbol is not there. But if you save the team and use it for World of Light and Spirit Board, it is there. The ellipsis is used for Spirits if you know where to look. Don't believe me? Turn on your Switch, go to World of Light, and put a Primary Spirit in your party that doesn't have a symbol. You'll see the dots there where the series symbol should be. Duck Hunt and Ice Climber have the ellipsis in the music section because they don't have enough songs for their own tracks and had to be grouped in the Other track that mostly uses songs from unrepped games. Besides, if you think this symbol was exclusive to music, then why did Toomai upload this symbol and not the "All" symbol or that musical note? Because it was used for Primary Spirits in World of Light and Spirit Board. For some reason, it's missing from the Collection menu. And even if you don't like the ellipsis, whether it's too small or something, if the game actually used it for miscellaneous stuff, then it's more appropriate then the one used for a Smash original stage. Whether you like the ellipsis or not, it's your opinion. I personally like the FOXHOUND logo more than the exclamation mark, but we still gotta use the exclamation for Metal Gear stuff. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2019 (EST)

1. I uploaded the symbol because it is used as a symbol for something in the game (unlike the non-symbol-text "All" or the website-exclusive eigth note). That doesn't automatically mean we plan to use it (or have to use it) for differing purposes.
2. The Metal Gear symbol changing isn't really a valid comparison; we still use it in Brawl places.
3. I very much agree with Miles's point 1. The three dots do not look like a symbol if used in a location where other symbols aren't present for context. Say what you will about the special stages symbol, but it quickly gets across the point of "this isn't something that fits anywhere else" without looking too different from other symbols.
4. I would much rather create a wiki-original symbol than use SSBU's "other" for previous games. Simply put I don't like backporting symbols to previous games, and the current setup only does that for a few things in SSB64. Toomai Glittershine The Ghostbuster 06:55, 21 January 2019 (EST)

I don't understand, why use "special stage" symbol to represent the minor universes if actual game use "other" symbol? If we shouldn't use "other" symbol in games without it, also shouldn't use "special stage" symbol, should just blank, and the spirits already includes most of the minor universes of previous games. ok, let's vote on it.--Capstalker (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Capstalker has a point. Why should we use the Special Stages symbol if it was only used by Melee's Battlefield when we were given the ellipsis for the minor universes? And what is the special stages symbol depicting exactly? A shattered ball? Pizza? A reticle? A fan? I've got no clue. It sure doesn't fit with any of the minor universes like ARMS or Golden Sun. But the ellipsis works because it's a commonly used symbol for waiting and all those series are waiting to get their own symbol. So I find the ellipsis much better than Battlefield's abstact shape. It might seem too small, but that's the point. These series don't have a symbol to represent them, so a hard-to-see symbol can show show that. I think you've gotten too used to the Battlefield symbol. There are probably new readers looking at that symbol and wondering where it came from. And it turns out that the symbol we're using for the minor universes came from a stage that should have used the original Smash symbol. Using Battlefield's symbol is us calling Battlefield Melee a property of a minor universe. We have to take the ellipsis. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:40, 21 January 2019 (EST)

While it's never outright "confirmed", it's pretty clear that the Melee Battlefield symbol is representative of parts coming together to a whole, which well suits the miscellaneous components that are otherwise not assigned a symbol but are still part of the "whole" of Smash. And as we've pointed out, an ellipsis isn't even recognizable as a series symbol stand-in in the first place. Using the Special Stage symbol is also a good compromise between the two more common ways in which Smash has previously identified miscellaneous stuff: with no symbol at all (as seen in most menus other than the Ultimate sound test), or with the Smash logo itself (especially in Brawl); using a symbol associated with Smash but not the main Smash logo which is used for Smash-original properties seems like a good way of communicating the idea. (Tangentially, I think insisting that "we have to" do it a certain way is a pretty flimsy basis for your case.) Miles (talk) 18:46, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Do we even need a series symbol where there isn't one? Why can't the Special Stages symbol be exclusive to Melee Battlefield? You really do not like the ellipsis? What would we do if Joker comes out and you don't accept the new Persona symbol? When the ellipsis is used for both music and spirits of the "Other" category, I think we should use the ellipsis for articles of the "Other" category, especially certain characters who have been Primary Spirits in Ultimate like Takamaru, Sukapon, Prince of Sablé, Ray MK III, Saki Amamiya, Isaac, Starfy, Chibi-Robo, Barbara the Bat, Dr. Kawashima, Shovel Knight, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Bomberman and Akira who have all used the ellipsis symbol with their spirits and never used the Battlefield symbol or any other series symbol. If I thought the FF symbol looked bad, should I ask you to change it? No, because Smash 4 and Ultimate had used it for Cloud, Midgar and everything to do with Final Fantasy. We finally get a symbol for miscellaneous music and Spirits that's not a music note or a Spirits logo and you insist on putting the Battlefield Melee logo on pages that shouldn't have it? SeanWheeler (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2019 (EST)

As Toomai made clear, "The three dots do not look like a symbol if used in a location where other symbols aren't present for context. Say what you will about the special stages symbol, but it quickly gets across the point of "this isn't something that fits anywhere else" without looking too different from other symbols." I'm not suggesting overriding a symbol that's based on anything like the Final Fantasy FF, so please don't sidetrack the discussion like that. The ellipsis does a terrible job of denoting "miscellaneous" because it's not comprehensible as a symbol like the actual series have, and so the idea of using it in that role is undesirable, by my judgment. Toomai and I have raised serious concerns with this approach and I want you to understand that it's not nearly as simple as you're making it out to be. Miles (talk) 20:44, 21 January 2019 (EST)

The ellipsis looks totally fine in my opinion. So what if it looks different from the other symbols? All symbols are different. We've got a W, and exclamation mark, a Poké Ball, a Triforce, a sword, a boxing glove, Sonic's head, the letters DK, a mushroom, an egg, the letters SF, the letters FF, some kind of moon symbol with a circle in it, a paw print, a house, a fox, etc. I think an ellipsis would fit right in. And no, I won't be confused with ellipsis in the regular text. When it's placed where the series symbol should be and it's the same grey color, it shouldn't be that confusing. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:34, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Given that it could easily be confused for bullet points or periods and that grey on a white background does little to distinguish it as a symbol as opposed to text, I vehemently disagree. Miles (talk) 23:48, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Three bullet points on the same line? No, I don't think so. We've got a W for Wario, FF for Final Fantasy and an exclamation mark for Metal Gear. Can you tell me about a page where a series symbol could blend in with the text? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I’m going to have to agree with Sean here. Unless somebody is completely blind, few will realistically going to think the ellipsis is three random periods. It’s actually more likely for somebody to go “what the heck is that” with the special stages symbol than the ellipsis. I vehemently believe we should have the ellipsis. 184.181.102.188 02:05, 22 January 2019 (EST)

Whether it looks like a symbol or not, it's actually a symbol, it's used in Spirits is evidence. I don't think the symbol is be confused, because it only appears where symbols should be. as SeanWheeler said, it's reasonable for "other" symbol is different from other symbols, it represents the minor universe rather than a specific series. so is right not to have one's obvious features.--Capstalker (talk) 02:41, 22 January 2019 (EST)

It looks to me like all the arguments in favour of using the three-dots symbol really all simplify down to the same one: that it's official. And we don't really care if a text term is official if an unofficial one is already entrenched - so why shouldn't we do the same for symbolic images that serve the same purpose (by which I mean we could just say "Mario universe" in text and we'd lose no information in 99% of cases), and are ultimately used more for flavour and aesthetics than information? Toomai Glittershine The Dispenser 19:05, 22 January 2019 (EST)

That's not the point, The primary reason is we refuse to use of "special stage" symbol represents the minor universe, the blank or use "other" symbol are both are more suitable than it.Capstalker (talk) 20:52, 22 January 2019 (EST)

And besides, just because SmashWiki isn't official doesn't mean we should be using the wrong symbol. Otherwise, we'd be using the unofficial NIWA symbols for Golden Sun and ARMS articles. The Special Stages symbol was a placeholder for a while because we didn't have any suitable symbol for the minor universes and a symbol was mandatory and you didn't want to make a bunch of fake symbols. And now Ultimate finally gave us a solution with a symbol used for Other series Primary Spirits in your party in World of Light and uses that same symbol for the music section. The ellipsis may not be in the previous Smash games, but the other "Other" symbol we used was never outside of Melee's Battlefield. Tell me, was Battlefield inspired by any other series? Because I don't think it was, and I don't think we should treat Battlefield as an "Other" property. Now that we got that ellipsis, I think the SpecialStages symbol should be used to refer to Battlefield (SSBM) alone so that there won't be any more confusion. I never liked that symbol. I really did want it removed from pages referring to "Other" games. And now, we have the perfect replacement. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:28, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I would like to clear up that I am not against using the three-dots symbol in the proper context, that being "for things that are labelled as such in SSBU". I am against using it outside that context, such as in previous games, and therefore am against having it be the default symbol for this template. Toomai Glittershine The Riotous 22:41, 22 January 2019 (EST)

Lip with Other Symbol & Special Stages Symbol.

Regardless if one's currently official or not, or because we've used one longer, which looks better? I created a comparison with Lip to have a visual representation to see which we think looks better, or worse. I'm not sure which I think looks better, but I am leaning towards one. What do you guys think? Wolff (talk) 23:17, 22 January 2019 (EST

I think that the one with the ellipsis looks much better. Not to mention, like eveyone said, it’s official. It doesn’t matter how long we’ve been using the special stages symbol, because aside from Toomai and Miles, everybody is agreeing that the ellipsis is more fitting. The general proposals thread has this exact issue wuestioned, if anybody wants to oppose or support. 99.203.11.237 23:19, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I said I'd contribute to this discussion, and even though it's late, I still will:

1. I have to side with Toomai here; I'm not against using the Other symbol altogether, I'm just against it being used in the wrong contexts.
2. I too think that it does not look like a symbol when paired next to other symbols, so using it as such is a bad idea in terms of design.
3. In response to you, Wolff, the one that looks better to me is, as you can probably guess, the second one.

Aidan, the Rurouni 23:24, 22 January 2019 (EST)

The ellipsis is the one I'm leaning towards, though not sure why. Isn't , "..." (dot, dot, dot) done when a character doesn't know what to say? In my understanding in this case, It'd mean we don't know which series it's from. I understand the concern of it being used in the wrong context, but I always understood that the symbol under the picture meant the series. Perhaps we should we have a poll of sorts to see which is preferred? Wolff (talk) 23:30, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I prefer the dots. If you don't want to use them for pre-Ultimate context, then why should we overuse the one that was only used for Battlefield in Melee? That doesn't make sense at all. The dots are far more appropriate. Even though Lip hasn't been seen with the ellipsis because she's a support spirit and the "Other" symbol is mysteriously missing from the Inventory, she is still grouped with the spirits that show the ellipsis in World of Light. And when Geno came as a Mii costume, he didn't officially have the mushroom symbol until he became a spirit in Ultimate, but we still used the mushroom on his page because we recognized him from Super Mario RPG. The Nintendog Assist Trophy has a paw print from Living Room when it was grouped under "Other" in the trophy gallery of Brawl and Smash 4 and the spririts in Ultimate, because Living Room originated from the same game the dog came from. Did a Nintendo Direct use the paw in the Assist Trophy presentations? I'll need to check. Has Dark Emperor used the crown symbol that Find Mii used? If we need a series symbol for everything, then the ellipsis used for "Other" in Ultimate is a better placeholder than the symbol used for one Smash original stage. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:09, 23 January 2019 (EST)

I like ellipsis because it can make me understand what it means is "other" and that "special stage" symbol are incomprehensible. But I not against not use it in the some pages of before Ultimate, although I don't think it makes sense. only 10 universe with have pages but no Spirits (Color TV-Game, GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Dig Dug, Xevious, Rally-X, Nintendo Labo, Tekken, Tales and Babylonian Castle Saga), I agree not use "other" symbol on these pages, but shouldn't use "special stage" symbol on these pages, As for other comprehensive pages should priority should be given to the latest game to use "other" symbol.--Capstalker (talk) 09:26, 23 January 2019 (EST)

Someone had mentioned the Metal Gear symbol change. For that case, all fighter pages (which are separate from the own character pages) use the symbol of that particular installment while stages, though few now, use the one for their most recent Smash appearance. In the case for the Battlefield (SSBM), couldn't it also use the Smash symbol?

In cases like the "Dark Emperor", like someone mentioned, they are given the symbol of the stage it's from. The "Dark Emperor" is listed as a Mii character in Ultimate, so why not have the Mii related series Street Pass, Tomodachi Life, Pilotwings, and Wii Sports have both the Mii symbol and their stage symbol, similar to how Shy Guy has both symbols for Mario and Yoshi? Before anyone says this would also need to be applied to Donkey Kong's, Yoshi's, and Wario's various series, they are each counted as separate from Mario's series in Smash, as well as Spirits.

The symbols are an artistic visual to show which series it is from. If technically classified as more than one in Smash, why not just use more than one? For the symbol used for pages of characters without a series symbol, we have more "freedom" to decide what we use as both symbols are only used in one instant each (one in Melee, and one in Ultimate). The main arguments I see are:

1. We've always used the previous symbol on the Wiki, so there is no need to change it.
2. The new symbol is official so we have to use it.

I mean, the reason given to me why we don't have the Ultimate roster and stages on the Wiki in their Ultimate order is that it would look different from how the previous installments' rosters are on the Wiki, but that is an entirely different discussion. I honestly wasn't sure which symbol I preferred for "other" series, which is why I made the comparison with Lip. Should we keep it the same, or change it? It wasn't until I saw the comparison did I think the ellipsis looked better. If a major/defining concern that replacing it manually would be too much of a hassle, I could replace them if no one else wants to? Wolff (talk) 16:01, 23 January 2019 (EST)

I don't think the pages with the Special Stages symbol should be using that symbol at all unless they were specifically referring to Battlefield (SSBM). So using both SpecialStages and the ellipsis with the slash in between is a dumber compromise. The Special Stages symbol has absolutely nothing to do with the minor universes. It was our unofficial placeholder for them. Ultimate used the ellipsis for the minor universes spirits, so I think the ellipsis should just replace the Special Stages symbol as our placeholder. My problem is not that the Special Stages symbol was never used outside of Melee. It was that it was specifically used for one Smash original stage and was never associated with any of the minor universes. Ultimate has given the ellipsis to so many universes. Devil World, Mach Rider, The Mysterious Marasame Castle, Shin Ogishima, Advance Wars, Yuyuki, Joy Mecha Fight, Kaero no Tame ni Kane wa Naru, Kousoko Card Battle, Battle Clash, Marvelous, Teleroboxer, Custom Robo, Sin & Punishment, Golden Sun, Magical Vacation, Tomato Adventure, Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, Eternal Darkness, Giftpia, Baiten Kaitos Origins, Chibi-Robo, Jam with the Band, Brain Age, Chosuju Mecha, Hotel Dusk, Kurikin Nano Island Story, Archaic Sealed Heat, Soma Bringer, Fossil Fighters, Glory of Heracles, Captain Rainbow, Disaster: Day of Crisis, Takt of Magic, Zangeki no Reginleiv, The Last Story, Pandora's Tower, Pushmo, Sakura Samurai, Dillon's Rolling Western, Shovel Knight, Culdcept Revolt, Harmoknight, Nintendoji, Ever Oasis, Sushi Striker, Wonderful 101, Rayman, ARMS, Bomberman, Virtua Fighter, Shantae, Clu Clu Land, Famicom, 3D Hot Rally, Tetris, X, Panel de Pon, 1080, Big Brain Academy, Personal Trainer Cooking, Excite, Art Academy, Steel Diver, Freaky Forms, Style Savvy, Nintendo Land, Wii Party, NES Remix 2, Nintendo Badge Arcade, Code Name: STEAM, Tank Troopers and Snipperclips all only have ever used the ellipsis for their symbol. That's 72 different series to use the ellipsis which is about the size of Ultimate's infamously large roster where EVERYONE IS HERE!! With so many universes covered by the ellipsis, that should be our default symbol. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:04, 23 January 2019 (EST)

The usage of the symbols in Smash are also different. The ellipsis covers all that Sean mentioned in the "Others" in Ultimate. It was never stated why that Battlefield in Melee used a different symbol or what it represented. A Smash original doesn't make sense as the Final Destination in Melee used the Smash logo.

Currently (based on what I've seen on this thread so far), Wolff and SeanWheeler, as well as 184.181.102.188 and 99.203.11.237 say to change it, while Miles, Toomai, and Aidan, the Rurouni say to keep it, with Capstalker saying to not use either Symbol. 4 yes, 3 no, and 1 neither. How many votes across what time period would be needed for confirmation of changing it or not? Wolff (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2019 (EST)

You misunderstood, I support to change it.--Capstalker (talk) 05:30, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Also, what would happen if a new series in Smash was represented by a simplistic logo? Wario uses a "W" and Metal Gear now uses a "!". I don't think "..." looks weird or out of place when compared to them and vise-versa. Wolff (talk) 19:22, 23 January 2019 (EST)

It seems like there needs some more people to talk about this subject, although I am very late to the discussion. To be honest, I'm siding more with the ellipses, although I do understand why people still want the current symbol. The main reason is that it's better at symbolizing other than the current symbol, since when I first saw the current symbol, I had absolutely no idea what it represents. The ellipse, at least to me, does make it more obvious that the series represented is "other", since ellipses are used to omit things from sentences in grammar; it's just like "omitting" a universe that isn't represented by a character or a stage. That's how I view it, but honestly in the end I think it doesn't really matter too much. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:42, 23 January 2019 (EST)

So it looks like it's six to three in favor of the ellipsis. And those against the ellipsis are high-ranking admins. Man, this is a tough battle. SeanWheeler (talk) 11:57, 24 January 2019 (EST)

"How many votes across what time period would be needed for confirmation of changing it or not?"

SmashWiki is not vote-based, it is consensus-based. That said, more people would need to make their opinion clear if a consensus is to be reached. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:00, 24 January 2019 (EST)

How many more people need to make their opinion clear for a consensus to be reached? I support changing it to an ellipsis by the way. 47.176.58.194 12:07, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Then what would need to be clear consensus? A 2/3 kind of situation? The reason why I had asked voting wise was because I saw other pages reach their consensus depending on Support, Opposed, and Neutral answers. Could the conditions for a consensus be elaborated upon? Wolff (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2019 (EST)

We're putting our posts in the middle instead of the end? That can get confusing. Anyway, if there was a 2/3 situation, it looks like we would be winning 7 to 3. And the guys who want to keep the Special Stages have gotten their points thoroughly debunked. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:24, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Well, I think I've hammered my point on a dead horse. What I'm seeing from the admin side is they are not accepting an ellipsis, which seems more like personal bias than a valid argument, and that the ellipsis was exclusive to Ultimate but we all know what the Special Stages symbol was used for. There are a lot more people agreeing with me. We can all agree that an ellipsis means "symbol pending." Yeah, I think I've got the stronger argument here. SeanWheeler (talk) 12:38, 24 January 2019 (EST)

One of the main problems to this argument is that is when we put symbol|insert-series. symbol|other currently uses Melee's Battlefield symbol. But since Melee's Battlefield is the only one that uses that particular symbol, it shouldn't be a problem to reformat it to the ellipsis as the only change we'd need to make manually afterwards (I think) is Melee's Battlefield. Wolff (talk) 13:41, 24 January 2019 (EST)

And when I first made the change, I fixed all the template links that references Battlefield so that they are symbol|specialstages and nobody has undone those yet, so we are all set. I'm sorry I made a mess without consensus, but at least if we agreed on the ellipsis, there won't be a mess to clean up. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:28, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Change default symbol from Special Stages to Other: Part 1

I'm seeing a large amount of entitlement from the three-dots side of the discussion here. Specifically, this stands out to me: "the guys who want to keep the Special Stages have gotten their points thoroughly debunked". How is that so? "It's official" and "I personally like the other one better" are not debunking any points (regardless of what those points might be).

In fact, there is still one important point that I don't believe has been brought up since it was first mentioned: some universes' music tracks (Ice Climber, Duck Hunt) are placed into the "other" category despite having the same amount of songs as the independent Game & Watch and Final Fantasy series (2). So the meaning of the three-dots symbol is not a cut-and-dry "some other series". Toomai Glittershine The Different 11:06, 26 January 2019 (EST)

And here is another thought to consider: Suppose the Special Stages symbol was not from Melee, but an original creation of the wiki to represent symbol-less things. Would you be equally opposed to its continuing usage? Toomai Glittershine The Dispenser 11:21, 26 January 2019 (EST)

I actually don’t think your points have been debunked, but I personally just feel like the ellipsis makes more sense in the context of using it on the wiki than the special stages symbol. If the special stages symbol were a wiki-original creation, I actually would be more opposed it. While I’m aware that the wiki is not official, we should at the very least be using official material. If neither the special stages symbol nor the ellipsis existed, I would opt for having no symbol there at all. And about the ellipsis representing ice climber and duck hunt as well, that’s because they aren’t seen as significant enough. Plus, Nintendo porbably wanted a few more stages for the other 100 “other” songs to play on now that we have this new rule that music is sorted by series. Final Fantasty wouldn’t fit wih any of these songs because it’s third party. Game & Watch wouldn’t fit with any of these songs because unlike any of the “other” stages, it’s supposed to sound retro. Even Duck Hunt’s character and remix are meant to look more modern (even though the originals are of course retro). I’m honestly more surprised Wii Fit and Punch-Out are not counted under “pther” 184.181.102.188 11:51, 26 January 2019 (EST)

Wii Fit and Punch-Out!! aren't in "other" because they have much more going for them. (Wii Fit actually might have more representation than Punch-Out!!, now that I think about it, but I digress). In regards to your "not significant enough" claim, if that's the case, then why does R.O.B. have nothing? Is his series insignificant? That'd be a bold claim to make, considering R.O.B. saved the entire video game industry over here. I also disagree with your idea that Nintendo thinks that IC/DH are "not significant enough" on the grounds that their stages, in Brawl and Smash 4, already had music from other games on it. G&W only had that in Smash 4, but even then, it was the two Dr. Mario tracks.

In any case, I would like to say that my reasoning for siding with the old symbol is a personal bias (because, I will admit, some of it is), but that is not entirely the case. If you want to talk about points being debunked, then I'd like to know where the debunk for what has been said before is: it does not look like a symbol when put next to other symbols. The "W" and "!" at least have relevance to what they represent: Wario is represented by a "W" in various media like the Mario & Sonic series and Mario Kart; the "!" is an important part of the Metal Gear series, because it's used throughout the series, and even makes cameos in other media. The ellipsis is just there to represent franchises that don't have any form of organization; Duck Hunt and Ice Climber lack this organization because they never really had it. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:11, 26 January 2019 (EST)

If the "special stages" symbol is a wiki-original creation, that will not change anything, because it won't change the fact that meaning of symbol is incomprehensible. Even if we don't consider the official or not, the "special stages" symbol has nothing to do with the minor universe in any case. As for the fact that ellipses are not like a symbol, it's entirely subjective. At least I see that many people think the ellipses is not problems in practical use. --Capstalker (talk) 12:19, 26 January 2019 (EST)

I think we have deviated from the theme, we have two symbols：

1. the symbol originate Battlefield in Melee; its meaning unknown; it never used in minor universes.

2. the symbol originate Music and Spirits in Ultimate; its meaning is "ellipsis"; it used in most minor universe.

I really can't understand why you think that "special stages" symbol is more suitable for representing the minor universe than "ellipsis" under such obvious contrast.--Capstalker (talk) 12:57, 26 January 2019 (EST)

Perhaps the Special Stages symbol was fine before, but wasn't that because there wasn't any other available symbol at the time? Yes it is confusing why certain series outside of Final Fantasy are or aren't listed as their own series for music, but only series outside of Stages, Fighters, or the Mii series (which all have their own symbols) would receive the "ellipsis". The Mii Spirits were originally listed in "others" on the Wiki before it was realized that it had a symbol. Wolff (talk) 20:37, 26 January 2019 (EST)

If the special stages symbol was a wiki original, then I would rather have a bunch of made-up symbols for each series instead of it, including the symbols used for interwiki links. Anyway, I'm finding Capstalker, Wolff and the anons completely right. There is absolutely no point in keeping the Special Stages symbol other than avoiding change. The ellipsis is more associated with the other universes than the Special Stage symbol. So what if Duck Hunt and Ice Climber were included in the "Other series" music? Does it matter? The ellipsis not looking like a series symbol is subjective and Toomai himself wouldn't have uploaded it if he really thought it wasn't a series symbol. So many Assist Trophies need that ellipsis. SeanWheeler (talk) 02:06, 27 January 2019 (EST)

What is the point of having these discussions if the admins won’t allow it to be changed regardless if the majority/consensus is in favor of the change? If it’s only up to the Admins saying yes or no, what’s the point? It seems as if this discussion is being ignored until it’s forgotten. (I apologize if I ticked anyone off, It’s just I’ve seen this happen on numerous wikis, this one is no exception) 216.53.157.120 23:16, 1 February 2019 (EST)

The protection expores later this month, so it’s fine. Besides, I think the consnnsus is pretty dang clear. It’s 9 to 3 now (including you and me) Lou Cena (talk) 01:07, 2 February 2019 (EST)

I'm going to list a tally for this proposal currently:

Support: Me, Sam, 184.181.102.188, Capstalker, 99.203.11.237, Wolff, 47.176.58.194, (i guess) 216.53.157.120 and Lou Cena

Against: Toomai, Miles, Aidan, Serpent King

From this result, I believe we have a consensus, however I am not the final say. Also, not trying to single anyone out, but the number of IPs who support this also creates some suspicion. SugarCookie420 (talk) 18:12, 2 February 2019 (EST)

I remember I was one of those IPs before creating this account. I forget which one I was (whether it was 184.181.102.188 or 216.53.157.120), but I was one of them. So he consensus should be maybe 8 or 7 to 3 actually. Still a very clear consensus. Lou Cena (talk) 18:46, 2 February 2019 (EST)

Fine I'll add yet another point towards not changing the default symbol to the three-dots symbol: It looks like a "click here to open a menu" icon, which is used prevalently across the internet. By the principle of least astonishment, we should avoid using it when not necessary. Toomai Glittershine The Obfuscating 19:56, 2 February 2019 (EST)

I haven't really read all of what has been said, but I'm pretty sure an argument has been brought against this point. SugarCookie420 (talk) 20:31, 2 February 2019 (EST)

Make it 4, not that it matters, this is not a vote count. In order for either side to "win" in a discussion, they must provide more overpowering evidence to support their claims/reasoning, not simply parrot one another. Now, I'd like to bring up that we have always (and without argument or issue) used old symbols for old games, such as the old Mario and Metroid symbols. Therefore at the very least, no non-ultimate specific article should receive any such change. Serpent  King 20:14, 2 February 2019 (EST)

If we shouldn’t use the ellipsis for older games, then by that logic we shouldn’t be using the special stages symbol at all outside of Melee’s Battlefield. Melee’s Battlefield’s symbol never pertained to anything outside of itself, so why should we continue using an unfotting symbol. All 7 of us are parroting each other because that one single point of evidence really should boil down to using the ellipsis over the shattered disk. Here’s all of my evidence that we should use he ellipsis:

• The Shattered disk doesn’t relate to anything outside of Melee’s Battlefield, so why should it be used for anything outside of that

• The ellipis actually does relate to all of the “other” spirits. Officially, mind you. Even if we shouldn’t change the symbol fully, at the very least every assist trophy or mii costume whose spirit is represented with an ellipsis should receieve one.

• The ellipsis actually looks like something that would be an “other” symbol while the first time I personally looked at the shattered disk got a “what he heck is that” reaction out of me.
• Either Toomai or Miles brought up that it doesn’t look like a series symbol. The thing is, that doesn’t change the fact that it is an official series symbol. As much as the special stages symbol is.
• Aidan brought up that the ellipsis represent nothing putside of music and spirits. So the shattered disk represents even less then.
• Toomai brought up that psychologically, people will think that it’s a “read more” thing. However, by that logic Snake’s exclamation mark psychologically represents something new rather than a series. Also, adding onto that, considering that thhe ellipsis is going to be placed where a mushroom or an smash logo would be, I doubt anybody would think it’s a “read more” thing.

Lou Cena (talk) 20:44, 2 February 2019 (EST)

I'm not trying to make a vote count, I just want to see whose side each person is on because this thread is huge. Nevertheless, I just want this whole thing to end, because this debate has gone on way too long, and it's just over a silly symbol.

In regards to your statement, I actually agree. I believe Ultimate should use the ellipse while others use the old symbol. That or everything can just be the Smash Bros. symbol, which isn't a great idea. SugarCookie420 (talk) 20:31, 2 February 2019 (EST)

@Toomai, you can say the same thing for Mega Man's symbol. The gear has been used for options before. And the exclamation mark for Metal Gear is also common on an interface. If you didn't like the symbol, then why did you upload it? And @Serpent King, we used the old Mario and Metroid symbols because they were officially used in-game for their appropriate pages. The Special Stages symbol wasn't used for anything except Melee's Battlefield. It was just our unofficial placeholder symbol. Anyone who has a problem with using Ultimate's ellipsis outside of Ultimate should have a bigger problem with using the Special Stages symbol outside of the one stage it's been used for. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:14, 2 February 2019 (EST)

"The ellipsis actually does relate to all of the “other” spirits. Officially, mind you. Even if we shouldn’t change the symbol fully, at the very least every assist trophy or mii costume whose spirit is represented with an ellipsis should receive one."

You seem to be missing the fact that all of the admins here have said that we are not against using it altogether, as it would be properly applied in Ultimate-related contexts.

"Either Toomai or Miles brought up that it doesn’t look like a series symbol. The thing is, that doesn’t change the fact that it is an official series symbol. As much as the special stages symbol is."

"It may look bad but it's official so let's use it." Is that your point with that? Because that's a pretty bad argument.

"Aidan brought up that the ellipsis represent nothing outside of music and spirits. So the shattered disk represents even less then."

I mean, for one, Melee didn't exactly have the level of organization that Ultimate has, so that's a bit of an unjust comparison. For two, it doesn't "represent less", there's just less represented by it. The symbol from Melee exclusively represents Battlefield, which is a miscellaneous stage that isn't associated with any other universe; the symbol from Ultimate represents music and Spirits from miscellaneous franchises that aren't associated with any other universe.

"Toomai brought up that psychologically, people will think that it’s a “read more” thing. However, by that logic Snake’s exclamation mark psychologically represents something new rather than a series. Also, adding onto that, considering that the ellipsis is going to be placed where a mushroom or a smash logo would be, I doubt anybody would think it’s a “read more” thing."

Anyone who knows anything about Smash and/or Metal Gear knows that the shape of the exclamation point is shaped exactly how it is in the Metal Gear series; and, again, the old Metal Gear symbol is still used in Brawl contexts, so please stop bringing up the exclamation point. As for your other point, I'd just like to point out that that is the symbol's purpose in-game: it's placed next to the other symbols from the other franchises, and its sole purpose is "click here to see the other franchises represented in this game". Quite literally, it is a "see more" symbol. Aidan, the Rurouni 14:19, 3 February 2019 (EST)

It may look bad but it’s official so let’s use it: Whether or not it looks bad is entirely subjective. I personally hated using the shattered disk even when the ellipsis didn’t exist. Even so, your argument that it looks bad applies only to certian people.

You seem to be missing the fact that all of the admins here have said that we are not against using it altogether, as it would be properly applied in Ultimate-related contexts.: I’m glad that you thhink that. The thing is that nearly everything is in Ultimate, and at that point we might was well just simply change the shattered disk to the ellipsis. The only things that wouldn’t be represented by an ellipsis are the rareware items. It’s a lot simpler to change the template instead of manually changing every single symbol.

The symbol from Melee exclusively represents Battlefield, which is a miscellaneous stage that isn't associated with any other universe; the symbol from Ultimate represents music and Spirits from miscellaneous franchises that aren't associated with any other universe.: Battlefield is associated with Final Destination by sharing the same subscript (Special Stages), which uses the smash bros symbol. I’d say it’s fair to say that Battlefield is more associated with smash bros than miscellaneous content.

Anyone who knows anything about Smash and/or Metal Gear knows that the shape of the exclamation point is shaped exactly how it is in the Metal Gear series; and, again, the old Metal Gear symbol is still used in Brawl contexts, so please stop bringing up the exclamation point. As for your other point, I'd just like to point out that that is the symbol's purpose in-game: it's placed next to the other symbols from the other franchises, and its sole purpose is "click here to see the other franchises represented in this game". Quite literally, it is a "see more" symbol': You got me there about the exclamation mark. However, I don’t see the harm in the ellipsis looking like a “read more” sign. A user will click on it once, realize it isn’t, then not do it again. Lou Cena (talk) 14:39, 3 February 2019 (EST)

"Whether or not it looks bad is entirely subjective. I personally hated using the shattered disk even when the ellipsis didn’t exist. Even so, your argument that it looks bad applies only to certian people."

I said "it looks bad" in your argument because you failed to counter the main point that Toomai/Miles were making, and your statement in regards to it made it seem like you weren't arguing against it.

"The only things that wouldn’t be represented by an ellipsis are the rareware items."

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

"Battlefield is associated with Final Destination by sharing the same subscript (Special Stages), which uses the smash bros symbol. I’d say it’s fair to say that Battlefield is more associated with smash bros than miscellaneous content."

I was referring to Melee Battlefield specifically, so my bad for not making that clear.

"However, I don’t see the harm in the ellipsis looking like a “read more” sign. A user will click on it once, realize it isn’t, then not do it again."

Well, yes, but why not make it so that they don't accidentally click on it in the first place? You're flat out admitting the flaw in the action of replacing the symbol in the first place. Aidan, the Rurouni 14:54, 3 February 2019 (EST)

Lou was also referring to Battlefield in Melee. Those subscripts like "Special Stages" don't appear in any other Smash game. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:02, 3 February 2019 (EST)

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.: Despite no longer being assist trophies, all of them are present in Ultimate as either spirits or Mii cotumes. Those would also get an ellipsis Even if they weren’t though, that’s 5 pages out of a huge amount of others that it would be pointless to just not change them as well.

Additionally, as Sean was saying, I was referring to Melee’s Battlefield specifically. Both Battlefield and Final Destination ar labeled with subscripts “Special Stages”. However, while Battlefield uses the shattered disk, Final Destination simply uses a smash logo. Thus, Battlefield is still associated entirely with smash bros instead of misc. categories, even in Melee.

I said "it looks bad" in your argument because you failed to counter the main point that Toomai/Miles were making, and your statement in regards to it made it seem like you weren't arguing against it.: That was incredibly unclear to be completely honest. The way you phrased it made it look likke you were talking about the symbol. Not my arguement. Lou Cena (talk) 19:32, 3 February 2019 (EST)

I almost feel like at this point it'd be better to restart the argument using revised versions of our statements. Should we start a new paragraph/section (Like "Change default symbol from Special Stages to Other: Part 3") and start it anew (without referring to what was already stated)? Everyone keeps quoting numerous things stated beforehand, and there seems to be some confusion as to what some are referring to with statements getting repeated and muddled. Starting a new one may help us get a better conclusion. Wolff (talk) 23:00, 3 February 2019 (EST)

And by the way, to counter Toomai's "drop-down menu" argument, that symbol is actually sideways on Chrome, so I don't think anyone would mistake it for that unless they were holding their phone sideways. And considering how Miles thought it looked like bullet points, I'm wondering if they are just looking at it sideways just to make something minor look like an issue? SeanWheeler (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2019 (EST)

Change default symbol from Special Stages to Other: Part 2

It's obvious at this point that no one's going to change anything and this debate'll go onto 1,000kB or so. I propose a compromise: The special stages symbol stays, but we can use the ellipse for all Ultimate-related content. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:35, 2 February 2019 (EST)

The special stages symbol should be exclusive to Melee's Battlefield. Isn't that common sense? If we don't have a symbol to put there, then don't put a symbol there. I stand by my argument. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:21, 2 February 2019 (EST)

Just take the compromise. Both sides are clearly too stubborn to listen to anything else. A compromise is the only thing that’ll do for now. Besides, the only things that are going to stay with a shattered disk are the Rareware items. Nearly everything is present in Ultimate, remember that. Rven the missing assist trophies are mii costumes or spirits. This compromise is the first time somebody has given a proposal without their head stuck their own ego. I support the compromise at this point, considering both Sugarcookie and Serpent King (who are on opposite sides of this issue) agree on it. Lou Cena (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2019 (EST)

Well, at least the ellipsis should still cover most stuff, and that's something I like about the compromise. But I still fail to see why a few other pages would need an unfitting symbol that's been used once. You can call me stubborn, but I think a better compromise would be while we use the ellipsis for Ultimate stuff, the other stuff pre-Ultimate that don't belong to any repped series should not use a symbol. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:52, 3 February 2019 (EST)

Since we didn't (and according to some, still don't) have an official "others" logo before Ultimate, the shattered disc should stay mainly because we don't have any other symbol to represent it with. We could use the ellipse symbol from Ultimate, however since no one can come to an agreement on the status of the ellipse symbol for all of the "others", and since we have somewhat of an official symbol in Ultimate, the ellipse should be used solely for all Ultimate pages, hence the compromise. I'm pretty sure I'm reiterating what I had said before, but we need a compromise for this or else we won't have a final solution. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:47, 3 February 2019 (EST)

Like I said, I’ve seen this happen on other wikis were the discussions seem to deliberately die off despite having reached a supposed consensus. The argument that “the ellipsis doesn’t make sense as a symbol”, doesn’t make sense in of itself. (For the reasons others have stated such as WW, MM, and MG) As I saw someone touch upon before, if the SmashWiki really is “consensus”, why have so many arguments been reached on this wiki been by a Support vs Oppose conclusion? Is that not a voting system? Some just say one, while some (most) give reasons for their answer. Also, if we do end up using both with only the ellipses for Ultimate related content, that means EVERYTHING in Ultimate, right? Only series that only appeared before, and not in, Ultimate, in any capacity, use Melee’s battlefield symbol? (I’ve seen stronger arguments, and even stronger counter arguments, from the users that support the change than from the users that are opposed to it) 216.53.157.120 01:02, 3 February 2019 (EST) Honestly, if the symbol makes you think "click here to open a menu”, I think that’s more reason to change it. I feel clicking on the symbols should take you to the corresponding symbol on the list of symbols. It would then explain what the symbol is (potentially) and what it’s from or used for. Even if it would only be applied to the ellipsis. 216.53.157.120 01:11, 3 February 2019 (EST) Also, can’t we currently use the ellipsis until we get more convincing arguments against it instead of waiting to change it until we get more just as convincing arguments supporting it? (I’m not trying to call anyone out from the opposers or the supporters. The supporters I feel have the more convincing arguments) 216.53.157.120 01:14, 3 February 2019 (EST)

We could just manually change every shattered disk into an ellipsis if you want. Lou Cena (talk) 02:04, 3 February 2019 (EST)

Why do it manually if editing my revision would make it a lot quicker? I mean, it would if Toomai hadn't protected the template from an edit war. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:32, 3 February 2019 (EST)

Doing it manually will just have everything reverted, since we still don't have a consensus. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:47, 3 February 2019 (EST)

More people agree that the ellipsis is a better symbol than the Special Stages symbol. So what do we consider a consensus? SeanWheeler (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2019 (EST)

The vast majority of things on this wiki are indeed determined by consensus. But consider this specific case. The proponents of the "change the use-everywhere default to the three-dots symbol" are mostly newer users (joined 2017-2018) and IPs, and their main arguments are "it's official" and "I personally think it's better". The proponents of "do not change the use-everywhere default from the special stages symbol" are all staff members (most of long tenure) whose arguments include "it's not self-consistent" and "it's negatively unusual". And if two sides of an argument are so starkly divided between "newer users" and "staff", I find it difficult to believe that acting strictly on "consensus" is a good idea.

So no, the use-everywhere default is not being changed. Go ahead and use the three-dots symbol on SSBU's spirit and music pages, but it's not being used where the game doesn't use it. Toomai Glittershine The Frivolous 22:55, 9 February 2019 (EST)

I understand where you’re coming from, but the problem is rhat he actual spirits use the ellipsis. It causes nothing but confusion if we have 2 “other” symbols. Additionally, one of those IP’s was me, so you can consider that arguement a little bit more balanced in your favor. Lou Cena (talk) 02:10, 10 February 2019 (EST)

One thing to understand is that we really object is use specialstage symbol than support use ellipsis. Old users are used to it and know what it stands, but new users think this symbol is incomprehensible, so they are against using it. That's more telling that the symbol is terrible, just that you're used to it.--Capstalker (talk) 01:58, 10 February 2019 (EST)

So we can make a different argument: Should use specialstage symbol to represent the minor universe? If the answer is no, what should we use to represent the minor universe? --Capstalker (talk) 02:06, 10 February 2019 (EST)

New users being confused is going to happen no matter what we do. "Why is this symbol being used here?" "What does this symbol mean?" "Where does this symbol come from?" "Why does this page have no symbol at all?" There is no solution that removes all confusion, so things will stay as they are. Toomai Glittershine The Incomperable 16:48, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I understand your point, but I’d argue that the ellipsis makes people realize that it’s supposed to represent minor universes more thoroughly than the shattered disk. The shattered disk is merely a symbol that represents one stage original to smash. The ellipsis actually psychologically is supposed to be an etcetera.Lou Cena (talk) 16:54, 10 February 2019 (EST)

We've had that argument. It's over now. Toomai Glittershine The Spark 16:55, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Forgive me if I missed a paragraph or two about this, but when did the argument end (reach consensuses)? I also have a few questions as well.

1. User Creation Date: What does it matter when a User's account was created? That does not seem like it should be a defining factor. Yes, it is easier to
2. Staff VS. Others: I understand an argument holds more weight if it's done by users and not IPs, but wouldn't it kind of defeat the point of the talk page by saying that it's hard to find consensus between "newer users" and "staff"? There is no rule stating it can't be done. I've seen agreements on this Wiki reach a consensus with a combination of Staff, Older Users, Newer Users, and IPs. (Unless those consensuses would now be considered invalid)
3. Confused Users: The only way to know for sure if "new Users" would be confused and question the symbol change is if we were to change it in the first place, no?

Again, I apologize if I happened to have missed the "closing/defining argument(s)" for this. Wolff (talk) 19:03, 10 February 2019 (EST)

When did the argument end? When I said it did. It stopped being productive a long time ago and several admins are in agreement that it wasn't going anywhere. Toomai Glittershine The Celeritous 06:51, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Okay then. I did not know the Adimins had agreed upon that. Sorry Wolff (talk) 14:54, 11 February 2019 (EST)

So only the characters who are primary spirits in Ultimate should get the ellipsis while the others keep the Battlefield symbol? Is that the consensus? SeanWheeler (talk) 17:39, 11 February 2019 (EST)

We will continue to use the three-dots symbol in the same places Ultimate does: in spirit and music lists. Toomai Glittershine The Boss 19:54, 11 February 2019 (EST)

And the characters that have been primary spirits? Takamaru, Sukapon, Sablé Prince, Ray MK III, Saki Amamiya, Isaac, Starfy, Chibi-Robo, Barbara the Bat, Dr. Kawashima, Dillon, Shovel Knight, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Bomberman and Akira? Would they get the three dot symbol on their profiles? SeanWheeler (talk) 21:48, 11 February 2019 (EST)

If we only do those, it gets confusing. Use either one symbol or the other. Lou Cena (talk) 04:22, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Well, those characters did use the ellipsis in-game and since we use old symbols for games before the redesign, clearly we prioritize in-game usage. So at least those characters would have to use the ellipsis. If it has to be one or the other, it should be the ellipsis. But it seems like the men in charge has gotten fond of Battlefield's symbol and really don't want to change it for pre-Ultimate stuff. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:20, 12 February 2019 (EST)

A major part of the "don't change the default" decision was based on the assumption that users would not work around it as they please. All those characters only have symbols on their pages as part of being Assist Trophies, and as ATs they have no ingame symbol. Therefore, they will not be changed to the three-dots symbol, because those uses are not "in spirit and music lists". Toomai Glittershine The Celeritous 20:24, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Addendum: As much as this is the decision, I'm not entirely happy with it because it is indeed somewhat unintuitive. I am currently thinking of a better idea that will treat both symbols equally. Toomai Glittershine The Honcho 20:51, 12 February 2019 (EST)

That is a but confusing. After all, the music and spirits are associated eith the mii costumes and assist trophies’ music. For example, Arcade Bunny’s music uses an ellipsis, so by extension, so should the assist trophy. Additionally, the spirits themselves use the ellipsis ingame. For example, Dr. Kawashima is a primary spirit who uses the ellipsis ingame. If we shouldn’t use the ellipsis so liberally, at he very least universes who are represented with it by extension of being either a primary spirit, having music represented wih an ellipsis, or being related in some form to one of the former two, they should at least use an ellipsis. Lou Cena (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Oh come on! Those characters as primary spirits in World of Light have used the ellipsis and have never used the Special Stages symbol at all. Why do you insist we keep using that one symbol? You know that Aiden has edited this template so that Persona would use the ellipsis? Yep, one of your fellow admins who's been on your side in this debate has given an ellipsis to a universe that doesn't even have music or spirits yet and would soon get it's own symbol anyway, all because no one bothered to revert my edit redirecting the Persona symbol file weeks ago. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:26, 12 February 2019 (EST)

You do realize that Toomai wasn’t entirely satisfied with the decision either. Said assist trophies also have spirits labeled with an ellipsis, whoch is why it’s so unintuitive. Please don’t try to moon him. Lou Cena (talk) 13:34, 13 February 2019 (EST)

Then let's use the ellipsis then. If it wasn't Toomai who made the decision then who did? Sure isn't Aiden because he gave Persona the ellipsis. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:13, 13 February 2019 (EST)

Split-Circle and Ellipses

Symbol Examples:Lip with the Split-Circle (Right), and with the Ellipses (Left)

I feel like a lot of the information might have gotten garbled over about which Symbol is used for non-repetitive series. There are those who wish to keep the Split-Circle from Melee 's Battle Field and those who wish to change it to the Ellipses from Ultimate 's music section. If we were to disregard "keeping the Split-Circle as it has always been like that", "change it to the Ellipses because it is official", and "speaking on behalf of what the Wiki as a whole thinks about it" as invalid arguments, How would we go about our arguments?

A "Consensus" is a general agreement. However, for the argument on this Wiki, we need a strong reason for the opinion. While yes, the former two "reasons" I mentioned as supposedly "invalid" are both bases for or against the change, a previous discussion about this seemed to use those reason as their main argument seemingly repeatedly. (I noticed a few logical fallacies in the mix)

Wouldn't an argument now just be personal opinion? Well, yes. But that's why we have discussions in the first place. And a discussion shouldn't just end, unless a clear consensus were to be reached quickly.

Changing or not changing it because one thinks one looks better/worse can be a valid argument, but only if more substance is added to the opinion. I have my own, but I want to see others' to have a better/clearer consensus among the Users on the Wiki who care about this topic. Wolff (talk) 19:03, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I think I can give out the main arguments of both sides when discarding personal opinion or the “it’s official” or “we’ve been using it for a while” arguements. It’s what the ellipsis represents psychologically. Some people (me included) believe that it psychologically represents an etcetera, meaning that it immediately pops out as “oh this represents minor universes”. The other group thinks that it’s going to cause confusion, since it looks like a “read more” sign. Lou Cena (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I understand that. If a main concern, or defining factor, for some is that most, if not everyone, will be confused, the only way to know is if we change the symbol, if not temporarily. What I would like to know if if the people making such points believe that themselves. That they think others will be confused because they are confused by it (at least at first). If not, it makes me wonder what was reason behind such a claim. This also works the other way that what was the reason for saying that it means etcetera if they did not actually believe that them self.

Also, it feels like the argument will just go in circles if the same points are repeated differently. You said "it psychologically represents an etcetera" for you (It does for me too). Does that compel you to use the Ellipses, or to keep the Split-Circle? Why and/or why not? Wolff (talk) 01:18, 11 February 2019 (EST)

No. We're not moving the goalpoints with this. Topic is closed and will stay closed. Toomai Glittershine The Celeritous 06:51, 11 February 2019 (EST)

The reason why the topic wasn’t going anywhere was because both sides parroted the same points. “It’s official”, “we’ve been using one for a while”, or “I personally think one looks better”. By removing all of those arguements and counting them as invalid, I think it’s safe to reopen this topic. Lou Cena (talk) 11:16, 11 February 2019 (EST)

If you can come up with a new argument, that might justify more discussion. But I really don't think it would be a good idea to do that right now. Give it at least a month (maybe two) to calm down and roll over. Toomai Glittershine The Boss 19:54, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I do actually have another argument. In writing, an ellipsis “usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.” (Taken directly from the very top of the wikipedia page). While the same page mentions its usage in menus as a “read more” tab, its primary usage is in writing. A user will either recognize that the ellipsis represents either “read more” or “absence of a true series symbol”. In the case of the former, they will click on it once, realize that it isn’t, then never do it again. Even if they do click it once, it takes three seconds to realize that it’s the other usage of an ellipsis. In the case of the latter, its purpose will be clear, and it has done its job.

Compare this to the shattered disk used for Melee’s Battlefield. It’s only use is in one game for one stage, rather than throughout the english language. It represents nothing, and thus will leave many users confused on what it actually means. While it should take clicking on the page of another minor universe character or item to make a user realize its purpose, doing said action takes much longer than clicking an image, realizing what it really is, then getting out. This is also going to cause confusion over if Melee’s Battlefield is a Smash-original property or part of a minor universe only represented by a stage. While its series is clearly listed on the page, it will then leave the user wondering why a smash-original stage used a symbol associated with minor universes, and believe it to be a mistake. Lou Cena (talk) 22:07, 11 February 2019 (EST)

The argument about the ellipsis being an omission has already been pointed out before. And the "read more" thing was one of Toomai's points against using the ellipsis. I think all the points have been presented. The point about the shattered disc symbol being Melee exclusive is probably our best point. Especially since it makes the admins look like complete hypocrites when they are against the idea of using the ellipsis for pre-Ultimate stuff. Seriously, why can't we just take out the symbol when there's no symbol there? SeanWheeler (talk) 23:19, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Firstly, stop with the personal attacks. Secondly, I was using Toomai’s argument against him. Thirdly, the point that newer users will be confused if thtere’s a mistake about Melee’s Battlefield not having a smash symbol is a mistake has never been stated before. Lou Cena (talk) 23:40, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Hmm... I guess the part about the confusion about Battlefield having the wrong symbol wasn't exactly brought up. And when we start using the ellipsis for the primary spirits, I'm pretty sure a new user who knows the Special Stages symbol was only used for Battlefield in Melee would want to change a lot more symbols to the ellipsis. Since it's only the admins who want to keep the Special Stages symbol while everybody else who participated, including a rollback wanted the ellipsis, I think we should go by majority. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:24, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Enough This is not a majority vote, we do not operate under a vote count. The same points supporting the new symbol keep getting brought up over and over, and a decision has been made to keep the old Melee Battlefield symbol. Discussion ends here. Serpent  King 06:48, 12 February 2019 (EST)

I’m aware that this is not a majority vote. However, I do think that counting the points hat were parroted in the first place is a valid way of reopening discussion. Additionally, I just brought a new point about newer users possibly believeing the melee batllefield symbol to be a mistake on its actual page. I think opening discussion again would work, under the operation that we can’t state that it’s official or looks better. Lou Cena (talk) 10:46, 12 February 2019 (EST)