SmashWiki talk:Manual of Style/Archive 1

Do we have a specific preference between US-style standards of spelling (i.e. color, maneuver) and UK-style standards (i.e. colour, maneouvre)? Miles (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2010 (EDT)

I think we just do whatever, and you're not supposed to make an edit that only includes changing those things. Toomai Glittershine 19:05, 21 October 2010 (EDT)

I still strongly prefer ending all captions with periods. It looks frustratingly incomplete to me otherwise. Miles (talk) 14:02, 23 December 2010 (EST)

Additionally, can we standardize that the shortened forms of the games' names are:

• In article titles: SSB, SSBM, SSBB
• In article text: SSB, Melee, Brawl

This seems to the best way to do it, imo. Miles (talk) 16:23, 30 December 2010 (EST)

bump Miles (talk) 20:16, 16 January 2011 (EST)

Is there any particular reason you feel the distinction is important? Toomai Glittershine The Incomprehensible 21:09, 16 January 2011 (EST)

It looks better to me that way...? Also so there's a standard. Miles (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2011 (EST)

Links

Why is it that links such as [[grab|grabbing]] are considered "less efficient" than [[grab]]bing? Edits to change this are completely pointless and unnecessary. Omega Tyrant 10:45, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

...I did a edit like that. So are you saying I'm doing pointless stuff?--Wolf rulez! The best! 10:59, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

Basically a lot of users will view it as pointless due to both of the links will link to the same page and will both look the same when not editing, the only postive it has is to save a couple of bits. At the moment though it is not considered pointless due to that being the correct way to link in the Manual of Style.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 11:09, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

That does not answer my question on why one form of linking is considered "more efficient" than the other, as both ways of linking appear exactly the same on the page people view. Just because it is currently in the manual of style does not mean it is automatically correct. And yes Wolf Rulez, I'm saying all edits that only change one form of linking to the other is unnecessary and adds nothing to the page, therefore such edits are pointless. Omega Tyrant 11:32, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

I was actually answering Wolf Rulez's question, hence why it doesn't answer yours and why it is spaced under Wolf's comment.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 11:37, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

Suffix links make things easier to read and harder to spell wrong for the editor, have no effect on the reader, and are (most likely) no more expensive to process than piped links; Wikipedia sums it up with "This is easier to type and clearer to read in the source text." While I can agree that you probably shouldn't devote a single edit to changing piped links to suffix links, they appear have no downsides whatsoever. Toomai Glittershine The Chilled 12:15, 25 May 2011 (EDT)

Article naming for articles with multiple possible names

There's nothing in the manual that explains why the tech page isn't named "ukemi", or why tilt attack isn't named "strong attack". I interpret it as the pages are supposed to have the name that's the most common. Is that correct? – Smiddle_T 10:43, 7 July 2011 (EDT)

We do have SmashWiki is not offical, which covers that. I'll put it in here for completeness. Toomai Glittershine Le Grand Fromage 15:03, 7 July 2011 (EDT)

Oh, forgot about that. Thanks. – Smiddle_T 16:13, 7 July 2011 (EDT)

Addendum to the American vs. British (and all sundry) English guidelines.

I would propose that while we have no preference for the whole wiki, individual articles should maintain constancy. Thus, if an article contains both the words "colour" and "saber," one should be changed to match regional spelling of the other. To be frank, I can't think of a publication where both are used even in different articles, but I know that no copy editor would let the two coexist in the same article. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 20:11, 23 June 2012 (EDT)

And on top of that, articles with an American spelling in the title (List of rumors, L-canceling) should use American spellings throughout. Toast ltimatum 20:16, 23 June 2012 (EDT)

I can't really comment on the usefulness of this because I'm equally used to both spellings and can't really tell when an article is using both. I do feel that it would cause a significant tip towards American spellings simply for currently being more commonly-used. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 20:50, 23 June 2012 (EDT)

What's your point? There is nothing wrong with a site requiring constant regional spellings on content pages, whatever spelling that is. I'm not opposed (at least not enough to really poke the bear) to us using both, but it just looks unprofessional to have both on the same page. We're not saying one is better than the other (even if we only allowed one), but trying for consistency. We always talk about how this is a "community encyclopedia" and how important the community part is. Well, the encyclopedia part is important as well, and I don't just mean in terms of content. We should at least strive to follow some basic copy editing and typographic standards. As an anecdotal afterthought, on the wikis where these standards are followed, there tends to be better control of content anyway. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 08:53, 24 June 2012 (EDT)

I don't have a point. I posted because my opinion would be expected, and it happens that my opinion is invalid because I can't easily tell the difference between your addendum and the status quo. (Well, I guess then I should oppose it, but that would only be on the basis that people would keep having to fix my edits because I'll never remember the guideline is there, which is of course a dumb reason.) Toomai Glittershine The Steppin' 09:25, 24 June 2012 (EDT)

Number of spaces between a period and the next word

I've seen articles with one space between the period to end one sentence and the capitalized word to start the next, and I have also seen articles with two spaces. I'm taught in English that two spaces is professionally correct, but still, is there a preference here? If so, I would suggest that something about it be added to this page in order to maintain consistency. Naked Snake 10:39, 5 July 2012 (EDT)

Actually, one space in correct in typesetting; two in correct in basic typing. However, as our pages are not left and right justified, two spaces is usually better. It's also just more natural for most people, as everyone types, while few ever get involved in typesetting. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 14:12, 5 July 2012 (EDT)

See, I prefer just one space. Many would naturally just put one space, which we would have to correct, and if I'm to re-use a word, typing two spaces does feel comparatively unnatural. I don't see a great benefit for all the effort, I can't judge how much better it would look having not seen a full article with this spacing, but I don't think that's something I need to get into. Toast ltimatum 14:23, 5 July 2012 (EDT)

Extra spaces between words are not displayed on pages. As a result, having a preference seems pointless as it gets coerced into single-spaced regardless. Toomai Glittershine The Dispenser 17:48, 5 July 2012 (EDT)

Ah, I see. I guess that maintains consistency by itself since regardless of user preference it displays the same way. Thanks for the prompt response. Naked Snake 21:18, 5 July 2012 (EDT)

Legal initialisms

While I agree that certain initialisms are okay to use all the time, I don't really like having a hard list of such exceptions without rationale. It would be better if we could figure out a blanket definition to cover them. Toomai Glittershine The Keymaster 10:25, 23 June 2013 (EDT)

I was thinking of that, maybe something to the effect of "Exception: Competitive terms that are commonly used and known by their initials, such as DI instead of directional influence, can have their initials used in articles instead of the full name". Omega Tyrant 10:31, 23 June 2013 (EDT)

Shorthands

As I tried to get standardized two years ago (see top of page), could we standardize the shorthand forms of the game names to:

• In article titles: SSB, SSBM, SSBB, SSB4
• In article text: SSB, Melee, Brawl, SSB4

I find this necessary to bring up again because I'm strongly opposed to the usage of "Smash 64" and "Smash 4" as shorthands, though I'm aware there's some dispute on the subject. Miles (talk) 19:07, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

SSB is a terrible shorthand because it overlaps with the series name. Use Smash 64. Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl should be used both in articles and in titles except in pages like Marth (SSBB) which rely on the use of templates. For consistency again, the shorthand should be Smash 4 rather than SSB4. DoctorPain99 19:27, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

I should point out that anyone who thinks we're using things like "SSBM" in titles just for template reasons is misguided. The templates would work just fine regardless of the abbreviations involved, we'd just have to move a thousand pages and alter a dozen templates if we wanted to change it.

More importantly, I am of the opinion that "Smash 64" and "Smash 4" are fucking asinine because they are non-consecutive cuts. Using "SSB" for SSB64 is perfectly fine because we never use the "SSB" abbreviation in reference to the series; we always use "the Smash Bros. series" or similar. Toomai Glittershine The Keymaster 20:31, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

The abbreviations are rather unencyclopedic. And like OT said somewhere else, the Templates are for convenience, the "SSB" forms are more convenient.

Users have already been confused as to what "SSB" refers to, the game or the series. Just because we "always use" something doesn't mean we don't have to clarify. And why does a "non-consecutive cut" matter? Many people refer to Super Mario Bros. 3 as simply "Mario 3". DoctorPain99 20:38, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

How is a partial name and an arbitrary suffix more encyclopedic than a complete and no-frills abbreviation? Toomai Glittershine The Hammer 20:44, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

"SSB" is a few letters; "Smash" is actually a word and it makes it clear what is being talked about. "64" isn't arbitrary; it's common as many Nintendo 64 games had "64" at the end of the title. "Superman 64" isn't actually called 64, but people call it that anyway due to 64 being at the end of many Nintendo 64 titles. And as stated before "Smash 64" makes it clear what is being referred to; SSB doesn't. DoctorPain99 22:03, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

Also, "4" is an "arbitrary suffix" and we use those in all of our articles and that's not being argued against by anyone. DoctorPain99 22:09, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

Alright, so if the necessity is "make subject clear" and "64" is a valid suffix, why not "SSB64"? Toomai Glittershine The Boss 23:35, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

I'll point out that "64" is an absolutely valid suffix for the original, what kind of bubble do you guys live in if you think no one refers to it as Smash 64 and it's not the common name? Hell, on Smashboards, its board for the original Smash is called "Smash 64", not "Super Smash Bros." Everywhere I go, it's referred to as "64", and it thus is an absolutely valid and not arbitrary name, that also keeps it from overlapping with the series name. SmashWiki is not official, and Smash 64 is certainly the common name used for the original game.

And what's the big deal with a "non-consecutive cut"? Omega Tyrant 00:30, 11 August 2013 (EDT)

If you can't see why a name that includes "Smash" but not "Bros." is bad, then I can't explain it to you. There's too much of a fundamental difference in the way we think.

Anyway, you don't need to convince me, you just have to convince everyone else (this is a majority-rules site after all). Just know I'll be aggressively unhelpful in adhering to this practise. Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 11:37, 11 August 2013 (EDT)

I also fail to see the problem with a non-consecutive cut. Smash is the most recognisable word to identify the series as a whole, as "Super" and "Bros." are used in a certain other series that is also common. "Smash" without the "Bros." sounds fine and makes it very clear what is being talked about, so I see no issue. DoctorPain99 14:26, 11 August 2013 (EDT)

Per DP99. Scr7 14:29, 11 August 2013 (EDT)

In article titles, templates, etc.: SSB/SSB64, SSBM, SSBB, SSB4
In article text: Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, Smash 4 Awesome Cardinal 2000 18:43, 11 August 2013 (EDT)

Agree with this. Scr7 06:31, 16 August 2013 (EDT)

Bump. If you want it removed so much Miles, you should respond to this debate. Awesome Cardinal 2000 23:26, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

As I've already stated "Smash 64" is a significantly worse shorthand than "SSB", and here's several reasons:

1. Arbitrarily uses one word of the three-word title of the original game as the shorthand, as opposed to an abbreviation that represents the full title. (Not an issue with Melee or Brawl, since those have a distinct additional word beyond the series title.)
2. Is more easily confused with our current shorthand for the upcoming games in the series, especially if you're trying to argue for "Smash 4" for that game's shorthand.
3. As it currently stands, we don't use the abbreviation "SSB" for anything else but the first game in the series. There's no grounds for confusion if we continue that trend and make it official.

Seems straightforward enough. Miles (talk) 00:06, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

1. So it would be better to use an abbreviation that goes against two full words?

2. SSB and SSBB are only different by one letter as well. I don't see how people would get confused over Smash 64 and Smash 4 anyways.

3. But there are other people in the community who use "SSB" to refer to the series itself, like "MK is the most broken character in the SSB series" or whatever. It would create grounds for confusion for people who use that to refer to the series. Awesome Cardinal 2000 00:12, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

"abbreviation that goes against two full words" What even word salad. I have no idea. Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 00:49, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

1. In this case, yes.

2. "SSBB" is already restricted to page titles, so the chance of ambiguity between those two is very low. False equivalency.

3. We've already determined that there are multiple ways of going about doing this, so saying "usage of ____" exists is irrelevant. Miles (talk) 00:17, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

1. It's not "arbitrary", that's what people call it. "Melee" and "Brawl" are what people usually call it, and they also call it "Smash 64" and "Smash 4".

2. Again, why would people get confused over Smash 64 and Smash 4?

3. No we have not, and it's also important that people don't get confused over the stuff we write, which is why we can't use SSB to refer to the original. Awesome Cardinal 2000 00:37, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

Google time then:

"SSB64": 6,310 on SmashBoards, 106,000 elsewhere

"Smash 64": 141,000 on SmashBoards (probably tainted because that's what the forum is named), 83,100 elsewhere

"SSB4": 13,100 on SmashBoards, 465,000 elsewhere

"Smash 4": 8,380 on SmashBoards, 298,100 elsewhere

Not trying "SSB" because that's probably impossible to search as 64. The point is, aside from the case where "Smash 64" is the name of a major SmashBoards forum, the abbreviated forms are notably (but not overwhelmingly) more common. Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 00:49, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

Arbitrarily uses one word of the three-word title of the original game as the shorthand, as opposed to an abbreviation that represents the full title. (Not an issue with Melee or Brawl, since those have a distinct additional word beyond the series title.).

How the hell is using Smash "arbitrary"? Like OT, linked, Smash 64 is a common name and out of the three words, Smash is the one most recognizable from the series.

Is more easily confused with our current shorthand for the upcoming games in the series, especially if you're trying to argue for "Smash 4" for that game's shorthand."

How the fucking hell is using "Smash 64" and "Smash 4" as abbreviations more confusing than using "SSB", the same thing, for both the series and a game. Users have already been confused as to what "SSB" means. It should not be used as the abbreviation.

As it currently stands, we don't use the abbreviation "SSB" for anything else but the first game in the series. There's no grounds for confusion if we continue that trend and make it official.

Dude, users have already been confused. Just because you "hate" the abbreviation Smash 64, doesn't make it more proper than the ambiguous "SSB".

And @Toomai, common≠proper. DoctorPain99 00:54, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

I know the general population is moronic but I'm not seeing evidence of a widespread conniption of users thinking "this is in SSB" means "this is in the Smash Bros. series". And neither "SSB64" nor "Smash 64" is proper (isn't any sort of abbreviation or shorthard improper by definition?), which is why I went to see which is common. Toomai Glittershine The Wacko 01:00, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

When you think "Super Smash Bros." (which is what SSB stands for), do you think the game, or the series? I sure as hell don't think of the game right away. And I still don't get everyone's conniption with "64". It's common to tack that onto Nintendo 64 games even if they don't have it in their titles, such as Superman. DoctorPain99 01:12, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

Also, where are you getting these numbers? When I google, Smash 4 gets 320,000,000 compared to SSB4's 471,000, and Smash 64 gets 61,300,000 compared to SSB64's 112,000. When I add quotes, SSB4 surpasses Smash 4, but Smash 64 remains ahead of SSB64. Hell, even googling SSB gets less results than googling Smash 64 without quotes. DoctorPain99 02:46, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

I got the numbers with "site:smashboards.com" and "-site:smashboards.com", as well as putting quotes around "SSB64", "Smash 64", "SSB4", and "Smash 4".

When I see "Super Smash Bros.", I think "this could be the game or the series, and the context will make it blatantly obvious". When I see "Smash Bros.", I think "the series, unless the writer's a casual". When I see "Smash", I think "could be Smash Bros., but could also be one of hundreds of things with "smash" in the name".

I have no problem with the 64 in SSB64, in case that hasn't been clear anywhere. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 06:56, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

Pokemon gender pronouns

So recently, discussion started on if pokemon should be referred to by the gender pronoun the PM team refers to them by on their PM pages. This got me thinking, that we should just do away with the "it", and refer to pokemon by the gender pronoun most commonly used for them by the Smash community. SmashWiki is not official, and we made it clear before we'll use the common community term over the official name (e.g., tech over ukemi, tripping over prat falling, etc.). So the reasoning before that we use "it" instead of "he/she" because it's "official" doesn't hold water. Plus, we constantly have users referring to pokemon by their commonly used gender pronoun on the wiki, and often times using them in articles, even inadvertently (I know there been a few times I used he or she instead of it without thinking about it).

So I propose we end the "pokemon are it" policy, and just go with whatever gender pronoun the Smash community associates with the pokemon. Omega Tyrant 00:43, 22 November 2013 (EST)

While I myself is more used to using "it" since the gender of Pokemon can vary, I would have to agree with you that having gender pronouns instead makes it easier to understand, since frankly most people even outside the smash community do gender pronouns on Pokemon all the time. Dots (talk) The Smasher 01:04, 22 November 2013 (EST)

So which genders would these be? Is Jigglypuff female? Does Mewtwo get a gender, despite it not having one at all? As always, I'm dubious about this kind of change, particularly if it gives Mewtwo a gender. Toast ltimatum 02:34, 22 November 2013 (EST)

Pikachu/Pichu = Male

Lucario = Male

Mewtwo = Male (He's generally referred to as male by the community, and I don't consider his genderless status in the games to be significant really).

Jigglypuff = Female

Charizard = Male

Squirtle = Male

Ivysaur I'm not sure about, as I see a chunk of smashers refer to Ivysaur as female, while another chunk use male pronouns for Ivysaur. Omega Tyrant 02:48, 22 November 2013 (EST)

Looks good. I'm not sure about Ivysaur either . . . but I must voice my concern about Mewtwo. If a Pokemon is inherently genderless, rather than one with both male and female, like the rest, in this case, is it okay to refer to it as a he or a she? We're already treading a weird line, so I'd say I prefer referring to Mewtwo as an 'it', as it is.

One thing that does work against me is that the P:M page refers to it as a he, and I used that same logic to support Jigglypuff being referred to with female pronouns and as a she in general. — Jigglypuff the Magic Dragon (talk) 08:38, 22 November 2013 (EST)

In the end I don't really care either way, but here's my opinion:

• Don't force "it" for playable Pokémon, but don't force "he/she/etc" either. Keep consistency, but don't change for the sake of change. (Somewhat like the English variant spellings.)
• Keep the "it" stipulation for non-playable Pokémon and when talking about playable ones in a non-Smash Bros. context.

Toomai Glittershine The Superlative 10:29, 22 November 2013 (EST)

I think maintaining the usage of "it" consistently for Pokemon in the context of Smash is important. Unless we have a confirmed gender anywhere for them (which we don't), we shouldn't use one. Miles (talk) 12:12, 22 November 2013 (EST)

I have a more defined opinion now. Pikachu, Squirtle, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Lucario, I don't care, give them genders if that's what we decide on. It's harder to tell Pichu's gender, it probably just doesn't have one, but male is more popular, so I'm indifferent to that too. However, I have a problem with giving pronouns to Ivysaur and Mewtwo.

As has been said, there's much debate over Ivysaur's gender. If there's two popular pieces of conflicting speculation, we should stick with what's official, and not give it a gender.

Mewtwo, I'm particularly opposed to. Official sources outright call Mewtwo genderless. There's more to it than "all legendaries are genderless so they can't breed", Mewtwo wouldn't have a gender for it is man-made. I don't frankly give a damn if Smash players call it male, Mewtwo is genderless, which we should respect. Toast ltimatum 12:52, 22 November 2013 (EST)

Yeah, I'd want to call Mewtwo an 'it'. Also—Brawl came out after gender differences in Pokemon were introduced, should we consider Pikachu a confirmed male? For the rest of the Pokemon, all we have is voices, Pokemon gender ratios, and costumes . . . I don't think anybody would contest calling Squirtle, Charizard, Lucario, and Pichu 'he', but Ivysaur is more debatable, though the only evidence for it being female is its Japanese voice. Jigglypuff is quite commonly accepted as a female, plus her inherently feminine costumes, plus Jigglypuff's gender ratio itself. But the only ones we have solid evidence on are Mewtwo and (I believe) Pikachu. — Jigglypuff the Magic Dragon (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2013 (EST)

I think we should refer to the Pokémon by its name as much as possible without using a pronoun. Awesome Cardinal 2000 21:52, 22 November 2013 (EST)

The problem is, that'd be ridiculously cumbersome in general. — Jigglypuff the Magic Dragon (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2013 (EST)