User talk:Omega Tyrant/Archive 4

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This Edit

I did not notice this until now, which is one of the reasons why I don't like it. In the future, can you ask before you edit my user page? DP99 (CTE) 00:30, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

Every user has the right to remove the mention of themselves from another's userpage, so no, if I want the mentioning of myself off someone's userpage, I'm going to remove it without "permission". Userpages are not yours and you do not have complete control over them. Omega Tyrant 07:09, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

No, user pages are the user's property. It's like if you went to my house and messed with things while I was not around. The only time it is appropriate to mess with another user's user page without permission (you didn't even let me know, you just went and did it. very disrespectful) is if it breaks policy, and what you took off my user page did not break any policies. DP99 (CTE) 13:22, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

You are mistaken, userpages do not belong to the user, they belong to the Wiki and therefore are the Wiki's property, not the user's, just like everything else on here. Since they belong to the Wiki, they can be edited by anyone. While we do have an unwritten rule that you can't edit other userpages, it is still perfectly fine to remove any mention of yourself from anyone's userpage. Your analogy fails greatly, me removing the mention of myself off your userpage, which belongs to the Wiki, is nothing like me coming to your house and messing with the objects within. Whether you consider it disrespectful or not, I do not care. It was within my full right to remove the mention of myself and if you're going to freak like this for a minor edit to your userpage from another user, then don't create an userpage at all. An userpage is not your own personal space, they're just one of the many pages that this Wiki contains, that belong to no one. Omega Tyrant 13:51, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

I don't feel like reading this whole section atm, but your first sentence was wrong-- talkpages are community pages, userpages are not (assuming they don't violate any policies). Shadowcrest 19:12, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

User pages are the personal space of the user. How would you like it if someone touched your user page without even telling you? The user's user page should not be messed with without permission, unless, like Salad said, it violates policy. That thing you removed broke no policy, so you should have asked before you edited my page. It was not within your full right to remove, and your justification sucks. I can say whatever I want about another user on talk pages or IRC just as long as it breaks no policies, so why not on my user page? DP99 (CTE) 22:09, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

*chuckle* Then undo his edit and say it's your opionion and that he should live with it. I did so with Doc, who was stubborn enough to remove it over and over, plus the fact that his arguments being bad can be generally agreed on. The fact that you avoid talking with OT at this point is a counter to your whole entire (good friend thing). Removing my mention was justified as well, as you can't honestly consider me a friend, knowing that I generally side with OT and agree with him. I also look up to him like an older brother, which would means that I would defend him constantly. Disagree with him and say that he's a good friend, and you won't be logical in anyway to me at all. Agree that he's not a good friend and consider me a good friend will make logical sense.--MegaTron1XD 22:16, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

I like how everything you said had nothing to do with our conversation. We are arguing about the fact that he made the edit witgout my permission, not the edit itself. If he had asked in advance, I would have told him sure, go ahead, you arent a very good friend. However, he went and did it without even telling me first, and he cant accept that he was wrong and should have asked me before he edited my user page. Thats what the problem is here. DP99 (CTE) 22:25, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

Then why did you argue about this then? A resolution can be made instantly and you refuse to let him get on with his normal life.--MegaTron1XD 22:33, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

Don't you know what a Wiki is? No page on a Wiki belongs to anyone in particular, including userpages. All pages on a Wiki exist to be edited, and are only restricted from editing when necessary. Userpages are not the user's own personal space. I highly suggest you reread the first statement on SW:NOT, which explicitly says "SmashWiki is not a personal profile". So while you claim my justification to "suck", your justification for my edit being a problem is flawed when you have no policy on the Wiki that backs your view up. And no, you can't say whatever the hell you want about another user on your userpage. If you used their name and they don't agree with what you say about them or know it is outright false, they can remove it whenever they want. And quite honestly, if I mentioned another user on my userpage and if that user removed that mention from my userpage, I wouldn't give a fuck. If mentioning them had importance to whatever content their mentioning was part of, I may ask them about it on the IRC channel or somewhere else, but I wouldn't make a big fucking deal out of it on their talkpage. Now I'll ask, why are you making such a big fucking deal over it? I did it over a week ago and now you decide to bitch at me about it? Quite frankly, there is absolutely nothing to complain about. My edit just removed my username from your "Friends List", nothing else. Your userpage looks perfectly fine without my username, so there is nothing at all to bitch about. Now, before you go claiming that your userpage is your "property" and no one can touch it, go find the policy that says userpages are the sole property of the user and no other user is allowed to edit them. But wait, you won't be able to because no such policy exists. So I'll say it once more, if you're going to freak out over another user making such a minor edit to your userpage, then don't create one at all. An userpage is just one of the many pages on a Wiki, and just like any page on the Wiki, can be edited by anyone (except in certain cases). There are much more important things on the Wiki you can put this energy into rather than an absolutely pointless dispute over a simple edit to your userpage that occurred over a week ago. Omega Tyrant 22:42, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone agrees with you as far as "userpages are not the property of the user" is concerned. Shadowcrest 23:37, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

I will however say I do believe that OT has the right to remove his name (in this circumstance). Shadowcrest 23:45, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

K, I'm just going to pop in and say this: many wiki's disagree on policies, but there's one policy that nearly all share, the right a user has to their user page. Wikipedia has this policy, as should we. Now, you claim that a user page is property of the wiki, and legally, yes. But you're forgetting one little thing: they're called user pages, no? Finally, you claim that we're wasting energy for the wiki to argue about this, which is hypocritical considering you're the one writing gigantic posts about this. Anon 01:20, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

Funny. Considering DP, DP will ask for answers, which will even waste MORE of OT's time, which would last longer then this, perhaps a week or so. Also, you have flawed reasoning. Just because Wikipedia does something doesn't mean we should copy. We are independent, we have wiki affects, awards, and chat rooms on the wiki. Wikipedia does not. They are called user pages because it is what you can edit and nobody would honestly care. Unlike mainspace, which has to have correct links, spelling, and grammar, user pages are like mainspace pages, but now, you can customize it with many things that wiki gives to make it more friendly. The last part is honestly horrible. DP himself has typed more to this then OT, and do you really think that OT would like a message saying he has new messages everyday? Not to mention that DP himself will waste even more time then the time it took OT to write that. So, OT is saving DP and his time.--MegaTron1XD 02:25, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

I did not say that just because Wikipedia has such a policy that we should have the same thing. I mentioned Wikipedia because it is a large wiki, and I used it as a good example of how most wikis have such policies regarding this. In any case, we do have policies based off of Wikepedia. You claim that they are called. Your response about my statement about user pages being user pages does nothing but repeat my point about how the user is free to customize it any way they want. On a final note, much of your argument is about how DP is wasting more time than OT, when he is clearly not. In any case, this discussion is no longer about the specific edit that OT made but, as you may have noticed, about the rights users have to their user pages. Even if a user has a problem about what is on another user's page, they should at least talk to the user in question about the subject first. Think of it this way: a friend leaves an item of his at your house. After going back home and realizing that he left the item there, he turns around and heads back to your house. However, once he reaches there, instead of knocking on your door and telling him that he is getting back his item, he just barges in, takes the item, and leaves without a word. The thing with the user pages is a similar case. Sir Anon the great 03:56, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

I am not interested in continuing this argument, but I did not type more than Omega Tyrant in this argument. Honestly, all he had to do was say, OK, I'll ask next time, but no. Wow, and you arent even adressing Anon's arguments directly and claim his arguments are horrible. What do awards and chat rooms have to do with user pages? Anon's point was that on any Wiki you go to, user pages are the user's personal space that other people don't need to be messing with. which you totally failed to adress DP99 (CTE) 02:46, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

I did adress them. Those are wiki specific to support my wiki isn't a complete rip of Wikipedia, so we don't have to follow all of their rules. Accurately read what the examples are for.--MegaTron1XD 02:46, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

As a note people, can we get back to arguing in a civil fashion. I don't like it when my friends fight, and I don't want this issue to divide us. I suggest that one of us propose a policy or guideline about this. We have a guideline about user talk pages, but not one about user pages. Mr. Anon teh awsome 04:00, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

In similar Anon fashion, you come into an argument that you were not part of and bash me with arguments that are completely irrelevant to what is being discussed. The length of my posts has nothing to do with me being "hypocritical" with me saying this dispute was pointless and it certainly has nothing to do at all with was being discussed. Dr.Pain was the one who came on my talk page first and you think I'm going to just leave an unanswered blob of text that if flawed in so many ways on my talk page? Dr.Pain argued, and I argued back, plain and simple. It has absolutely nothing with me being hypocritical for calling a pointless dispute pointless. And when I am in an argument, I'm going to put whatever I think is needed into each post, regardless of how long it gets and whether or not I think the dispute is pointless. Not backing down from a dispute you think is pointless is not hypocrisy in any way, shape or form. Learn what the word properly means before calling people hypocrites in arguments you have no part of. And now for the userpages. For the last time, userpages are not the user's property. Like Mega said, an userpage and any subpages can simply be described as pages that we let the user decide the content of. However, just because the user gets to decide the content on it, that doesn't mean those pages are the user's property and no other user can edit them. They're just another page on a Wiki and like any page on a Wiki, they can be edited by anyone when they need to be (except in certain cases). Also Anon, just like Dr.Pain's analogy, your analogy is full of failure. First off, an userpage is not the user's property and therefore are nothing at all like the user's house. Secondly, my username being on Dr.Pain's "friends list" is nothing at all like me leaving an item at a friend's house. I never put my username on there and Dr.Pain never asked for permission from myself to include my name on there. So in your analogy, if my username was some object of mine, Dr.Pain basically "stole" my username and never properly acquired it in the first place. So if I wanted to, I could type a wall of text bitching about that on his talk page. But I won't, because it is such a minor and pointless thing to start a dispute about on the Wiki. See, if I were to start an argument about this, then you could claim me to be a hypocrite as I would be the one starting a pointless argument. You see, there's a difference between starting/provoking a pointless argument than defending yourself during one. So all in all, fail analogy is failure that adds nothing at all to what is being discussed.

Now for the final points. Dr.Pain, my username is more of my property than your userpage is your property. You never asked in the first place if you could use it, though I didn't care. But whenever I feel I don't want you using it wherever you are using it, I'll remove it. I won't ask for "permission" as it just unnecessarily prolongs a simple and discrete process that takes seconds and involves the Wiki as little as possible. I removed or revised mentioning of myself on other userpages before without "permission" and I'll continue to do so when I feel it is appropriate to do so. When it comes to userpages in general, they are just pages we let the user decide the content of, a free page for them to test their Wiki skills or whatever on. But just like anything else on Wiki, these pages do not belong to them and they can edited by anyone, which is why there's an option for other users to edit them. If userpages were to be the user's property, then why would all other users have the option to edit them? But the main thing that proves my point is that there is no policy that explicitly says "Userpages are the user's personal space". In one of ours existing policies (SW:NOT), it explicitly says "SmashWiki is not a personal profile". So while you attack Mega for not properly addressing Anon's points, both you and Anon fail to address mine. You failed to show me something written on a policy/guideline in place on our Wiki that says what you guys been saying this whole time while there is an existing policy in place that I can interpret the meaning of to back my points. You two must learn how to debate properly. Simply stating "userpages are the users property" while providing failed analogies and completely ignoring whatever I said does not make that so. While I think this is the most pointless dispute I ever been in, I'll continue until you shut the hell up, admit that you're wrong and back down, or can actually provide an argument that refutes my points with strong backing that I myself am incapable of refuting. And one last thing, I said twice already, but I'll say it again, if you're going to freak out, bitch, whatever over another user making such a minor edit to your userpage that doesn't harm its content in anyway without your "permission", then do not create an userpage at all. Omega Tyrant 12:19, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

Side note: What kind of dialect do you have that prompts you to say "an userpage"?

Main note: Despite it being a technically failed policy, I'm going to link to this. We have no active comparable policy, and even though it's not implemeneted, it's very similar to the unwritten rule that everyone except OT is assuming/expecting. Actually, I don't know why that policy is listed as failed, since there doesn't appear to be any discussion about it (it should be "proposed" at least). Also, even if there isn't a rule against editing someone else's userpage, the community appears to agree that it's generally rude, and that you probably should have at least said "I"m going to remove myself because yadda yadda" on the user's talk page.

Primary note: If you've going to call your opponent a "bitch" in an argument, you're not going to get much respect from anyone. Toomai Glittershine 13:03, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

First off, I never called anyone a "bitch", there's a difference between saying someone is bitching about something and directly calling them a bitch. So do not make false claims of me calling someone something I did not. I do not fall down to name calling.

Secondly, failed policy is failed policy, it has no standing on the Wiki. Until that policy is passed or another one is that explicitly sates userpages are the user's property, they are not.

Thirdly, you didn't address all my points. You basically just said what DP and Anon have been repeating, except you tried to use a failed policy, which has no standing whatsoever on the Wiki, to back your argument. Now explain why it was so wrong for me to remove my username from Dr.Pain's userpage (who never asked for "permission" to use it in the first place) without "permission" when doing so would have just unnecessarily prolonged a simple and discrete process that would involve the Wiki as little as possible.

Fourthly, you use "an" before a vowel sound and "u" produces one, so I use "an" before userpage. But the thing is, whether that is grammatically correct or not, has nothing to do with the argument and it was completely pointless to bring up.

Fifth, I'm not the only user who thinks userpages are not the user's property. Didn't you read Mega's posts earlier? I'm certain there are other users who would agree with me on this, so do not assume you know exactly everyone's opinion on it when you do not. And finally, why would any page on a Wiki be the "property" of anyone in particular? Omega Tyrant 13:27, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

@Omega Tyrant: Your username is not like an object at all. While it is technically yours, other people are free to use it however they want like a real name. I could complain about how no one calls me by how I want to be called (you guys all call me Dr. Pain or DP, read this. I honestly don't care though.), and it would be just as stupid as you complaining about me using your name on my user page. Two Main Points: I will bitch about my user page because it is mine and I want you to say, "ok, ill ask next time." Seriously, thats all i want. Maybe you should just follow our unwritten rule about user pages instead of me not making one. Second: You say I'm bitching about you making an edit to my user page and shouldnt make one because of that i should not make one, yet your justification for editing my user page was that I used your name (in a positive way, too), which I can use whenever I want unless it breaks policy. Omega Tyrant, see I just used your name, and no harm done. If your going to complain about a user using your name, then you shouldnt even have an account. DP99 (CTE) 13:37, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, I have always called you Dr.Pain99 or DP99 until now, after I stop caring. Secondly, I did not complain about my name being used. I brought it up as a point of reference since a username is certainly closer to being an user's property than their userpage is and there's a difference between using someone's username on a talk page and on your userpage. Thirdy, the unwritten rule is basically that it's rude for other users to edit someone else's userpage without "permission" but that doesn't mean other users can never edit your userpage under any circumstance. But the thing is, it's nothing but an unwritten rule and therefore it can be interpreted anyway you want it to be. But your userpage for the last time, is not your property. There is nothing written in any of our standing policies that says so. Therefore, your userpage is not your property and you do not have complete control over it. Until a policy does pass that says your userpage is your personal space, it is just another page on the Wiki that while the user gets to decide the content of, other users can still edit if they feel it's appropriate. I felt it was no longer appropriate for you to consider me a friend so I removed it in one quick edit without involving the rest of the Wiki in something it didn't need to be involved in. So in the end, no, I'll not say "ok, I'll ask next time" or give you any sort of apology. Your userpage is not your "property" as you have nothing written that says so and I found the use of my username in it to be inappropriate, so I removed it. I did it before, and I'll continue to do so. You keep trying to use some "unwritten rule" and your own assumption on something to back your argument, which needless to say, is logically flawed. Omega Tyrant 14:03, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

The reason I misinterpreted your use of the word "bitch" was because of the rigid commas surrounding it, which has only one meanning as I read it.

"Userpage" is pronounced with a consonental [j] (like "yes"), so it should have "a", not "an". I wouldn't have brought it up if I wasn't confused by the useage of it.

Thirdly, I think OT has the better argument, even though I think he's wrong in principle. Doc King was blocked for edit warring on Mega's userpage with the argument that it's Mega's userpage and he should have greater control of it; do you really want to have to argue that?

Finally, I think we should all just shut up and get over it, even though nothing's been solved and everything will get worse if when this happens again. Toomai Glittershine 14:14, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

In response to the Doc incident, have he been removing his username and mentioning of him entirely, then I would have supported him during it. But he was just removing the part about his argument, which comes across to me as him just wanting himself to be represented the way he wants to be on Mega's userpage. As I see it, userpages are just pages that the user gets to decide the content of. While they have more "control" over it than other users, they do not have complete control to where no other user can edit it without permission regardless of the circumstances. So while a user may be in "control" over the content of their userpage, they do not own it and still can't do anything they want with it. If they mention another user on their userpage that the user in question doesn't agree with, finds inappropriate, and/or knows it is incorrect, they are within their full right to remove it. I recently removed from Zeldasmash's userpage mentioning that I'm a professional smasher, when under definition, I'm not, and no one made a fuss about that. Have I been around during the Doc incident, I may have intervened by just removing the entire mentioning of Doc from Mega's userpage. But I wasn't and Doc ended up getting blocked. Omega Tyrant 14:36, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

Let's go back to what this argument is about. DP99 did not disagree with you about the edit, he merely stated that in the future you should inform him. You, however, responded saying that you have the right to remove any mention of yourself on his userpage that you disagree with. Then it got into a huge deal about user page rules. As I am going to state again, by their very name, user pages belong to the user. Unless a part of the userpage violates one of Smashwiki's policies, there is no reason to remove it. Your claim about me comming into an argument I have no part and stating irrelevent things is in itself irrelevent, as Salad, Mega, and Toomai "had no part" in the argument beforehand. The length of your posts does have to do with your hypocracy on the issue as you were claiming that that we were all wasting time and that you were not, even though the length of your posts obviously shows that you have put in more effort into this than us. You also claim that DP99 "argued" first, even though this is false. As stated above, he merely requested that you inform him in the future before doing things like that. Instead of saying something like "OK, I'll leave a notice on your talk page before I edit your userpage" you went on about how his userpage isn't his property. If after this you still refuse to do this, then I agree with Toomai that this is going nowhere, and I will not continue this. Either way, I'm done here. Sir Anon the great 01:15, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Pointless post is pointless. For the last fucking time, userpages are not the user's property, there is nothing written in our standing policies that says so. Secondly, the length of my posts has nothing to do at all with me being a hypocrite. I never said Dr.Pain was wasting my time while I was not wasting any, I said this was a pointless dispute, which it was. But just because I think the dispute is pointless, it does not mean I'm a hypocrite for putting a full effort into my arguments. Thirdly, Dr.Pain was the one who started this dispute. He came on to my talk page, telling me how I should "ask" before any edits to someone else's userpage and I simply explained how no "permission" was necessary in the edit I made. Dr.Pain then proceeded to say I was wrong and ramble about how his userpage is his "property", which led to all this. As you can see, my first post was far from a wall of text that "went on about how his userpage isn't his property" and Dr.Pain was still the one who started the dispute, so stop trying to pin this all on me. While you can say I should have apoligise and say "sorry, I'll never do that again", Dr.Pain could have simply backed off or mention his mistake in assuming that his userpage was his "property". So you see, I can too say someone else should have done something else to avoid this dispute. I also love how just like you always do, you failed to properly address all my points while reasserting the same argument I have already refuted. Now, before you post again, actually fully read all of the previous posts and provide an argument that refutes mine instead of restating the same refuted statement over and over again while using ad hominem attacks. All in all, while pointless indeed, I will not leave a post like this on my talk page directed at me unanswered. Omega Tyrant 01:41, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

I've already told you, I'm no longer going to be involved in this. Now that I've cooled down, I see your reasoning, although I still hold that user pages are a user's property. Again, it would be nice if we could have a policy about this. Someone else would have to write it, since I don't have time to compose such a policy. Mr. Anon teh awsome 02:50, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

And as I said, I will not leave a post directed at me on my talk page such as the one you made unanswered. If you didn't want to be involved in this any longer, you shouldn't have posted your recent post in the first place. Omega Tyrant 02:54, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

As I've pointed out more than once, nobody that I can see agrees that userpages are not the property of the user. Feel free to continue relying on a sole point to hinge your argument upon that the wiki doesn't support, and while you're at it, please continue raging, it really makes your argument as a whole sound better. Shadowcrest 02:22, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

If you read Mega posts, you would see that he agrees with me that userpages are not the "property" of the user and I know another user who hasn't posted that agrees with me as well. So I can assure you I'm not the only one with this viewpoint. But it wouldn't matter anyway as it's not written that userpages are the "property", "personal space", or whatever you want to call it of the user. As for the "raging", I found this dispute pointless and being attacked by multiple users for the stupidest of reasons who ignored your points and kept telling you "what you should of done" so someone wouldn't QQ, is the reason for being harsh in response. Was I angry, no. Aggravated with the stupidity of some users, yes. All in all, while I usually contain myself, I found no reason to do so in this admittedly waste of time and I decided to just let it out, and it felt good. Perhaps if I was up against some users who actually knew how to debate properly and didn't try to debunk your argument because "your posts were longer than theirs", I wouldn't have "raged". While I am a patient man who intends to be as friendly as he can be, I'm just human and their are certain things that tend to stir me up. If these things happen, there is no promise I'll hold back any "rage" and I'm certainly not going to hold back in disputes with people I don't care for who tend to annoy me. Omega Tyrant 02:59, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not reentering this debate, but what do you mean by "stupidity of some users"? Mr. Anon teh awsome 03:08, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Very simply, the very stupid things some users do and say on here. I still find it completely ridiculous that me putting more effort into my posts was used by you guys as something that made my argument less valid. Omega Tyrant 03:19, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

As discussed on IRC, I am now backing OT on this. Anon 03:46, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Although there should be some guidlines restricting what users can do on other user's pages. Mr. Anon teh awsome 03:47, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

reset indent At OT, nowhere on this page do I see anything from Mega resembling agreement with your idea, so if you could provide links to back yourself up that'd be great. In addition, there's this thing called "consensus", wherein the wiki collectively agrees that such an idea is good, and then they follow that idea- whether or not it is written up as a formal policy is irrelevant and does not magically justify your idea.

PS. Most of the people on this site irritate me, and yet except for extreme cases like RAN1 or DocKing I generally keep the rage to a minimum-- and this is frankly not extreme. I'm a practical plant, and if you want to dump rage upon whoever you feel like whenever you feel like it, I'm going to be tempted to take your crap out to the garden to help the petunias grow. I like petunias. Shadowcrest 18:55, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Ummpphh, I thought this damn thing would be gone by now, it already far surpassed the recommended byte limit before archive. As for Mega, he has certainly agree with my view on the IRC, I thought the fact that he was defending me here would be proof enough for you. As for other users, you can see Anon agrees with me now and as mentioned before, I know another user who agreed with me as well, but I won't drag their name into it if they don't choose to do so themselves. As for raging, while this may not seem like an "extreme case" to you, how do you know that this isn't one to me? I seen the stuff archived with RAN1 from the past, and quite frankly, it didn't seem like an "extreme case" to me. As such, we are not alike, and what may not seem like something to rage about to you is certainly to me and vice versa. Omega Tyrant 23:51, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to declare this section closed, and to instead discuss the issue of user page ownership here. Toomai Glittershine 00:02, September 25, 2010 (UTC)