Talk:PSI Magnet
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I was wondering whether or not the list for the PSI magnet's absorption should be removed from the Ness page and be moved to here.--Respawn 20:07, November 7, 2006 (GMT)
- I think it should. AltAcnt 20:28, November 7, 2006 (GMT)
- Me too.--Simna ibn Sind 22:17, November 8, 2006 (GMT)
Has it been confirmed that PSI magnet can absorb master hand's bullet? I seem to remember trying that with lucas, and it didn't work... ~Teh Blue Blur~A revolution begins. 14:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Melee[edit]
The page currently says that Ness' downB in Melee is something even remotely good. It isn't. Its very slow on startup and on release. Ness can be trapped in it during absorption. The only places it is safe to use are in some non-legal stages, against some very rarely used moves from very rarely used characters(Din's Fire), and against improperly used attacks(standing lasers, non-desyncd ice blocks). Even suggesting that it's good in Melee is the opposite of true. JiffyD (talk) 01:16, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Unless my memory is foggy, it comes out on frame 20 something, which is not "slow on startup". You can say the move is bad, just watch your facts and cite your sources. Serpent
King 01:32, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- That is actually VERY slow startup. At that speed a human would not be able to react to a charge beam from Samus from across Battlefield; they would need to make a read to get the absorb. At that speed a Ness could absorb an advancing Mario Fireball and be trapped inside of the magnet in absorption lag long enough for Mario to land pretty much any move he wants. What frame does PSI Magnet come out in 64? Because even if PSI Magnet is so bad in 64 that its only a viable move in non-competitive play then that means its equal in badness with Melee's.JiffyD (talk) 01:40, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Keep in mind that in every Smash game including 64, the physics are rendered at 60 fps. The graphics may not be, but the physics are. If you do the maths, that means that 20 fps is only a third of a second, which is actually only somewhat below par with other moves. Also... Because even if PSI Magnet is so bad in 64 that its only a viable move in non-competitive play then that means its equal in badness with Melee's. That logic is completely wrong. Characters get nerfed and buffed all the time, especially between games. And because Smash 64 and Melee use different engines, they would have had to do the physics up again as well. To say that Melee is at all equal to 64 is like comparing apples and oranges. Black Vulpine (talk) 01:53, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Its not comparing apples to oranges. I'm comparing PSI Magnet's value in the context of SSBM to PSI Magnet's value in the context of SSB. The phsyics and all sorts of things between the games have changed, but I think if you check the frame data you will find that PSI Magnet in Melee and in 64 come out on a very similar frame, but Melee is a faster game, generally. It MIGHT be true(but probably isnt) that if you took Melee PSI Magnet and put it in 64 that it would be a better move, but THAT would be comparing apples to oranges. JiffyD (talk) 02:11, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- And please tell me which moves in melee come out on frame 20 and which of them are meant to be moves used as a reaction to other moves. JiffyD (talk) 02:13, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Just tested it in debug mode, It comes out on frame 10 and takes 30 frames to drop it. Is it bad? absolutely. Is it slow to start? No. Marth's Forward Smash without charging also comes out on frame 10, so. Serpent King 02:24, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- If you ranked every attack in Melee from fastest to slowest then moves that come out on frame 10 would be on the slower half. You also have to consider the context of the move: PSI Magnet is a move that does nothing if not for another attack being used against it. And most importantly, what frame does PSI Magnet come out in 64? JiffyD (talk) 02:32, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Also consider that every projectile that's in both Melee and 64 has a faster travel speed in Melee, so even if it does come out slightly faster in melee it still cannot be considered "more reliable" as the article says.JiffyD (talk) 02:35, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Idk what frame it comes out in SSB and I really don't have a way to look it up, but 10 frame start up is not slow at all, it's more middle of the road. The thing is that absorbing frames are also vulnerable ones, so it still is a generally bad move. Serpent King 02:57, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- The edit in question is entirely about the speed and reliability of PSI Magnet in 64 compared to those of PSI Magnet in Melee. Whether or not a 10 frame startup is "fast" in Melee is 100% beside the point. In the context of Melee, PSI Magnet is not more reliable nor is it faster when compared to its counterpart context in 64. JiffyD (talk) 03:01, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- It is not 100% besides the point when you claimed that Melee's Psi Magnet has a lot of start up, which I have just proven false. Articles need to be written as 100% fact, regardless of how terrible the move is. And it actually is more reliable btw, as SSB's version has more startlag, the same amount of min drop time, and more end lag than SSBM's. So if you are done ignoring the facts I am presenting to you, you can edit the article factually instead of making baseless assumptions. Serpent King 03:16, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- I have put this to the test by recording a high-speed video and then counting the frames. I have conclusively found that in Smash 64, the start-up lag for PSI Magnet is 15, the minimum duration is 30, and the ending lag is 10. Serp has told me the numbers for Melee - the minimum duration is the same, but the start-up and ending are both shorter, with 10 and 3 frames, respectively. I can conclusively say that PSI magnet is still not brilliant, but from a competitive view, especially for people who main Ness, the differences are pretty significant. I'll leave the final word to Serp, but my opinion is that we do not need to change anything. Black Vulpine (talk) 03:20, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- I made no baseless assumptions. Everything I have said and the edit I made is correct. The previous line in the article read that Melee made PSI Magnet "much faster" (it didn't...the small number of frames that were shaved off of it do nnot even begin to make up for the over increase of game speed in general Melee) and because of that it was "more reliable" (it isn't...it is a nearly unusable move in anything beyond casual play). Both of those things are wrong.JiffyD (talk) 05:24, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- And for the record: Ness Melee PSI Magnet comes up on frame 10, goes down on frame 40, and Ness is actionable again on frame 60. That's a downB input on a single frame and without absorbing anything. JiffyD (talk) 05:29, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Jiffy, do you have access to the debug mode? Or have some other viable means of counting the frames? Let me go over your arguments. The previous line in the article read that Melee made PSI Magnet "much faster"... and because of that it was "more reliable" From a competitive standpoint, it IS much faster. The professionals of Smash can very easily make use of a difference of 10 or even 5 frames, which is about a tenth of a second. Doesn't sound like much, but in Smash, it can make a HUGE difference. The reduced ending lag makes it much faster to react, while the reduced startup lag makes it more reliable - which brings me to that phrase. We're not saying that it's the best thing ever - in fact, saying something is "more reliable" doesn't make it so much more reliable. It makes it better than what it was before - not necessarily the best. Finally... Ness Melee PSI Magnet comes up on frame 10, goes down on frame 40, and Ness is actionable again on frame 60. Again, do you have a way of actually testing this? I conducted my test by counting the frames in a high-speed video, while Serpent King did his test using Melee's debug mode. Did you use one of these two methods? Because if you didn't, we can't trust your numbers, and we can't put them in. There's no such thing as an 'amount of time to wait until you're actionable again'. Once the ending lag is over, you can move your character again. You claim the ending lag is 20 frames, but Serp has already shown the ending lag to be 3 frames or thereabouts, and Serp has used the DEBUG MODE to test this - the tools that the DEVELOPERS use to test for this sort of thing. There is absolutely no way that what you're saying is true. Ness's PSI Magnet's ending lag in Melee is roughly 3 frames, as shown by the game's own internal code. End. Of. Discussion. Black Vulpine (talk) 05:56, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- I know perfectly well how long 5 frames is and what can be done in that time. What you don't seem to realize is that the 5 frame difference is going across different games. 64 is a noticeably slower-paced game than Melee. The 5 frames of faster startup in Melee is completely overshadowed by the fact that any situation where you would use the move is going to require that you use it even faster than that. Frame-by-frame it IS faster and like I said earlier maybe that extra 5 frames would make PSI Magnet "more reliable" in 64, but in Melee it can't be called that because it isn't and the 10-frame startup for this particular variety of move is not fast in Melee's context. If you care to check you'll find that my frame data is accurate, but I wonder if yours is. If you are using a rendered video of the move instead of actual gameplay directly from a console or emulator then you may very well be using footage that plays at a different framerate. JiffyD (talk) 06:38, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- I recorded from my Wii U gamepad screen. My frame data is completely accurate, and I needed to perform it myself to be in full control of the circumstances. Anyway, we now have reached a consensus, edits have been applied and accepted, so please drop this now. We don't normally allow people to be as argumentative as you are, because it can lead to counter-productive edit warring. You thought you could slip that last casual edit of yours through the crack when you went to change those KO percentage numbers by conveniently omitting it from the edit note. Such behaviour can be seen as bad faith. We've now reached consensus, edits have been applied and accepted, so it's time for us to walk away from this one, especially you. Are we clear on that? Black Vulpine (talk) 08:44, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- I know perfectly well how long 5 frames is and what can be done in that time. What you don't seem to realize is that the 5 frame difference is going across different games. 64 is a noticeably slower-paced game than Melee. The 5 frames of faster startup in Melee is completely overshadowed by the fact that any situation where you would use the move is going to require that you use it even faster than that. Frame-by-frame it IS faster and like I said earlier maybe that extra 5 frames would make PSI Magnet "more reliable" in 64, but in Melee it can't be called that because it isn't and the 10-frame startup for this particular variety of move is not fast in Melee's context. If you care to check you'll find that my frame data is accurate, but I wonder if yours is. If you are using a rendered video of the move instead of actual gameplay directly from a console or emulator then you may very well be using footage that plays at a different framerate. JiffyD (talk) 06:38, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Jiffy, do you have access to the debug mode? Or have some other viable means of counting the frames? Let me go over your arguments. The previous line in the article read that Melee made PSI Magnet "much faster"... and because of that it was "more reliable" From a competitive standpoint, it IS much faster. The professionals of Smash can very easily make use of a difference of 10 or even 5 frames, which is about a tenth of a second. Doesn't sound like much, but in Smash, it can make a HUGE difference. The reduced ending lag makes it much faster to react, while the reduced startup lag makes it more reliable - which brings me to that phrase. We're not saying that it's the best thing ever - in fact, saying something is "more reliable" doesn't make it so much more reliable. It makes it better than what it was before - not necessarily the best. Finally... Ness Melee PSI Magnet comes up on frame 10, goes down on frame 40, and Ness is actionable again on frame 60. Again, do you have a way of actually testing this? I conducted my test by counting the frames in a high-speed video, while Serpent King did his test using Melee's debug mode. Did you use one of these two methods? Because if you didn't, we can't trust your numbers, and we can't put them in. There's no such thing as an 'amount of time to wait until you're actionable again'. Once the ending lag is over, you can move your character again. You claim the ending lag is 20 frames, but Serp has already shown the ending lag to be 3 frames or thereabouts, and Serp has used the DEBUG MODE to test this - the tools that the DEVELOPERS use to test for this sort of thing. There is absolutely no way that what you're saying is true. Ness's PSI Magnet's ending lag in Melee is roughly 3 frames, as shown by the game's own internal code. End. Of. Discussion. Black Vulpine (talk) 05:56, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- I have put this to the test by recording a high-speed video and then counting the frames. I have conclusively found that in Smash 64, the start-up lag for PSI Magnet is 15, the minimum duration is 30, and the ending lag is 10. Serp has told me the numbers for Melee - the minimum duration is the same, but the start-up and ending are both shorter, with 10 and 3 frames, respectively. I can conclusively say that PSI magnet is still not brilliant, but from a competitive view, especially for people who main Ness, the differences are pretty significant. I'll leave the final word to Serp, but my opinion is that we do not need to change anything. Black Vulpine (talk) 03:20, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- Keep in mind that in every Smash game including 64, the physics are rendered at 60 fps. The graphics may not be, but the physics are. If you do the maths, that means that 20 fps is only a third of a second, which is actually only somewhat below par with other moves. Also... Because even if PSI Magnet is so bad in 64 that its only a viable move in non-competitive play then that means its equal in badness with Melee's. That logic is completely wrong. Characters get nerfed and buffed all the time, especially between games. And because Smash 64 and Melee use different engines, they would have had to do the physics up again as well. To say that Melee is at all equal to 64 is like comparing apples and oranges. Black Vulpine (talk) 01:53, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
- That is actually VERY slow startup. At that speed a human would not be able to react to a charge beam from Samus from across Battlefield; they would need to make a read to get the absorb. At that speed a Ness could absorb an advancing Mario Fireball and be trapped inside of the magnet in absorption lag long enough for Mario to land pretty much any move he wants. What frame does PSI Magnet come out in 64? Because even if PSI Magnet is so bad in 64 that its only a viable move in non-competitive play then that means its equal in badness with Melee's.JiffyD (talk) 01:40, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
I just redid my test just to be sure, and it looks like it is 20 frames of end lag...but that's not even what we are arguing here, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up. I am not arguing that the move is viable in any capacity, the only problem I have with your edit was the fact that you said it had a lot of start lag in melee which it doesn't. I am done arguing about this. Serpent King 06:12, 17 April 2017 (EDT)
