Talk:Fox (SSB4)

Fox's Final Smash is still Landmaster. Add? Meyguhmein - talk - *FURIOUSLY FANBOYS OVER MEGAMAN* 01:24, 11 June 2014 (EDT)

Why is Charge Blaster listed as an option for Up Special? Shouldn't it be a Neutral Special?Tepig (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2014 (EDT)

The video proving the name is this, where it clearly says "Charge Blaster (Up Special)". Toomai Glittershine The Superlative 16:32, 20 June 2014 (EDT)

Actually in the E3 demo it never shown any neutral specials nor a side specials. So Charge Blaster may be a neutral special since all characters, well except Palutena and the Mii Fighters, have a rip off variation of that move. The Smash Brotha (talk) 10:30, 28 July 2014 (EDT)

Page is protected so can't add this myself. The Landmaster in SSB4 can now fire in the Air, prob should be noted somewhere in changes from Brawl. --Vashzaron (talk) 19:21, 14 September 2014 (EDT)

I'm trying to do damage calculations, but I can't add them due to the recent creation my account, I'm willing to do them for quite a few heroes... I just need permission. --Knin (talk) 22:46, 15 October 2014 (EDT)

You're just gonna have to wait a week to be auto-confirmed, however, if you want to start now, just post your calcs to the talk page and ask for credit in the edit summaries. Laikue (talk|contribs) 23:05, 15 October 2014 (EDT)

Aerial landing lag frame data

It's true that you said that his forward, up, neutral & down aerials have increased landing lag. But are you sure that Fox's back aerials have more landing lag than in Brawl? I compared his landing lag from Brawl to Smash 4. Luigi540 (talk) 03:36, 10 November 2014 (EST)

One thing to note about Fox's D-air is the landing lag seems to be affected only if you don't hit the opponent with it. According to the Fox tutorial made by ZeRo, he demonstrated here the differences between missing D-air and hitting with D-air. DavemanCozy (talk) 11:25, 3 December 2014 (EST)

Fox "appears to be nerfed overall"

"Fox appears to be nerfed overall. His movement speed was nerfed, making his approaches much less safe and he can no longer laser camp to bait bad approaches from his opponents. Additionally, his finishers are weaker. He did gain better recovery options, but they do not compensate for the nerfs to his neutral and punishment games."
Some comments on this: "His movement speed was nerfed:" According to this thread Fox's dashing speed is the 4th best in the game and his walking speed is the 3rd best in the game. From visual observation and playing, I actually think his dashing speed is better than Brawl's, although his walking speed does seem slower than it was in Brawl. The thread provided is based in human observation, so it's no solid data, but I think it's also misleading to say "his movement speed was nerfed" when he visually is faster than most of the cast.
"He can no longer laser camp to bait bad approaches:" Fox can no longer laser camp, but he can still use lasers to bait bad approaches (he just won't be shooting a ton of them like in Brawl) Should be re-worded to something like "he can no longer bait approaches as effectively with the blaster" or something to that effect.
DavemanCozy (talk) 12:08, 3 December 2014 (EST)

Movement speed refers to how safe his movement is. Smash 4 Fox's movement is the least safe it has ever been. In particular, I feel like his initial dash animation has been shortened and as you said his walk speed has been reduced. Because you can't change your spacing with dash dancing in Smash 4, you have to rely on inferior movement techniques in Foxtrotting and Walking. The nerfs to his initial dash animation and his walk speed nerf both of those techniques respectively. Less safe movement means you'll have a worse neutral game because you cannot approach easily.

As for lasers, you won't be able to bait approaches at all. Baiting a bad approach means you are able to punish said bad approach after your opponent commits. But because lasers have endlag, you won't be able to throw another move out to punish your opponent's approach. Fox sucks in this game.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 15:13, 3 December 2014 (EST)

No he doesn't. Why else would top players like Nakat say he's top 10 or players like ZeRo decide to main Fox (see the video I posted above)? Did you even watch the video I posted with ZeRo's analysis on Fox? Saying he sucks is plain wrong, don't go spreading misinformation like that.DavemanCozy (talk) 16:05, 3 December 2014 (EST)

It's not misinformation; it's his opinion, that's all. If he thinks Fox sucks, then that's his opinion, not yours. Rtzxy Reflect! 16:08, 3 December 2014 (EST)

No. A character's relative strength in comparison to the rest of the cast is an objective quality, not an opinion. If it were subjective, then you could somehow make a reasonable case for MK not being the best in Brawl, or Kirby being the best in Melee. Zero and Nakat are too optimistic about Smash 4 to call anyone bad. I don't trust alot of what they say because they exaggerate the strengths of their characters while minimizing discussion about their weaknesses. A really gross exaggeration is Zero's analysis on Marth. It is so obvious Marth has been completely gutted in this game. He has no movement to play footsies with. He can't pressure you with aerials. He can't run away and camp you. And he can't setup kills or edgeguards. Yet all Zero says is "Marth is still good; you have to play him differently." Zero would rather tell a white lie to not offend casual Marth mains than tell the truth.

If you want to prove to me that Fox is anywhere near good, please disprove all the things I have stated in my first paragraph. Prove that he has safe movement to approach with. Prove he can somehow bait and punish bad approaches with lasers. Frame data would serve you better than heuristics. In other words you should present actual in game evidence or analysis that you thought of yourself instead of saying "I feel like he's better because he feels better to me" or saying "Fox is better because other people say so."--Brian^{Don't try me!} 16:25, 3 December 2014 (EST)

↑ Agreed. Fox's only two boons in Brawl (vertical kill ability and lasers) were taken away in this game, so he isn't much more than crap now. Chilex (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2014 (EST)

↑Fox is in no way trash in this game his nerfs he has gained while hindering some of his potential, he makes up for wit the new hit-stun changes and improved recovery the combos fox can do are amazing and the small power buff he gained are extremely helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G1thinkatron (talk • contribs) {{{2}}}

Combos don't matter all that much if you can't approach or bait approaches to land them. Good recoveries don't win tournaments. You only lose to Fox if you make a ton of mistakes and give him openings he should never get. He can't create his own openings.--Brian^{Don't try me!} 01:20, 2 January 2015 (EST)

Fox's approach options are definitely not foolproof, but you're talking like you're a tool assisted computer. There is no clear one-line answer that shuts him down, he is more than capable of mixing up his approaches using his movement options to bait opponents and create his own openings. So what his movement got nerfed, relative to the cast (you brought this up above) he's still one of the fastest characters in the entire game, in horizontal ground speed and the fastest in vertical air speed. Fox has the fastest dash to shield game (shield is up by frame 12), a jab that comes out on frame 2, a u-tilt that comes out on frame 5 which lasts until frame 17 and combos into itself, a long travelling Dash Attack that hits on frame 8 and lasts forever (till frame 19) and pops opponents to combo into U-tilts or aerials, a B-air that is positive on shield and comes out on frame 4 (can be auto-canceled and used to cross up), and the 3rd longest perfect pivot slide (a tad shorter than Little Mac's) which gives him a way of mixing up approaches, movement, and baiting opponents. All options he has may have an answer, but none of them are shut down by a one line answer like you claim they are: they all require different answers, no human opponent will react correctly 100% of the time the way you keep implying. If it was so easy to react to Fox's jittery fox-trotting mixed with perfect pivots, if it was so easy to avoid his jab confirms or getting grabbed by the 4th fastest character in the ground, if it was actually as easy as you make it sound to not get baited by Fox, then no one would be using him. But obviously people are using him: Dehf, Nakat, Shofu, TO Joe, and even new rising smashers like Megafox and Wusi from Germany. Last night in Toronto, I witnessed Nakat beat every single Diddy Kong using Fox. Why would he use a character you claim to be "bad" vs the best character in the game?

It baffles me that you think Fox is bad just because he lost the ability to gay out opponents with lasers or gimp them at 20% with shine like he could in previous games. This isn't Melee, and if you try to play him the way you do in that game, of course he's going to suck. You use lasers to force approaches (read again: not bad approaches, just force approaches) and you use shine to reflect (has no lag if you reflect something) or use it to stall and escape juggles. Just because you're trying to play Melee with Fox doesn't mean he's bad though, you're essentially ignoring the other things he got. Look at Side-B, the move has like 10 frames of landing lag if you use it in the air, it no longer puts you helpless which lets you recover or attack out of it, and the hitbox is much stronger in this game as it doesn't trade with things like Peach or Ness N-airs anymore like it did in previous games, they just clash with each other. It's a viable movement, escape and attack option now, and it can even follow up into a U-air or B-air for the KO at high percents. The other buffs he got were in regards to the engine itself, as pivots and the faster physics let him move much more freely than he could in Brawl. If you're not going to believe top players, believe the tournament results we've seen.

I would be happy to settle this in a money match at Apex 2015 next week. My Fox vs whatever character you play in Sm4sh. You are going, right? You're not just saying things in this wiki without having any WiiU tournament experience... right? I'll see you there, my tag is Cozy.

Source for frame data (DavemanCozy (talk) 17:54, 25 January 2015 (EST))

I respect the fact that you brought up frame data. However you did not tell me why those numbers mean anything with respect to neutral game. In fact do you even understand how high level neutral game works? Just because you have positive numbers doesn't necessarily mean there are viable spacings to use them. My claim is that Fox is bad because everything he does is a commitment. He doesn't have spacings where he can keep people in his threat zone and simultaneously stay out of other people's threat zones. Fox was good in Melee because he had the movement to accomplish exactly that: dash dancing. He doesn't have that anymore. Pivoting into a standing position has been in every Smash game. It's pretty much only useful in 64 and Melee because those games feature long dash dancing. IIRC 64 doesn't even have full runs so you can pivot into a stand whenever you want. But in Brawl and Smash 4, initial dash animations are incredibly short. You can't really use empty pivots to significantly change your spacing and move yourself away from someone else's threat. The "solution" people came up with to rectify this issue is to use Foxtrotting to more significantly change your spacing (as if it were a Melee dash dance), but Foxtrotting is an even bigger commitment since unlike Melee you can't shield in your initial dash and have to endure a skid animation before you can go into a stand again. As such there is 1 spacing that does invalidate all of Fox's options: standing right outside his initial dash length. If he tries to move, he will get hit.

NAKAT gets his wins by merit of having significantly stronger fundamentals than his opposition, not his character. He understands what his opponent wants better than they do so he doesn't have to actually play advanced neutral against mid-level players.

I am not going to Apex as it has always been a poorly run tournament. I went last year and my 8 am pool was delayed to 5 pm. I had to spend 7 hours walking around a cramped room that didn't have enough setups to allow friendlies. Not worth my time or money. EVO 2013 and EVO 2014 on the other were well run tournaments that allowed plenty of friendlies and finished early which gave me time to enjoy Vegas. I'll be spending my money there. Besides a money match with a mid level player like you wouldn't prove anything, now would it? Why should I waste my time on a game I don't enjoy. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 22:33, 25 January 2015 (EST)

Fox's down aerial.

Why is its new knockback trajectory considered a nerf? It wasn't much of a good meteor smash to begin with. Chilex (talk) 16:23, 15 January 2015 (EST)

In Brawl the meteor hitbox keeps people in place for a followup like an up tilt, grab, or up smash. Though it's worse now mostly because of the landing lag, idk why that isn't mentioned. Scr7(talk · contribs) 16:26, 15 January 2015 (EST)