Forum talk:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1

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So, since Toomai has formally concluded this debate, it has been over a year since then with no word on what "Part 2" would entail. In that time, I feel this debate has become outdated and whatever Toomai has planned should just be scrapped. Besides the significant time gap since Toomai's conclusion, most comments in this forum are upwards of two years old from users who were less educated on the matter than they are now, and more significantly, PG Stats has emerged as a suitable replacement for the SmashBoards Back Room. Notably, back in March of last year, PG Stats posted a new Melee tier list that was widely accepted by the community and immediately became the basis of our current Melee tier coverage without any opposition. I feel, with offline events having been back for a while now and Ultimate's updates being finished, it's a matter of time before PG Stats puts out a tier list for Ultimate, and that's the tier list people are going to uphold as the most "official", both within SmashWiki's userbase and especially outside it. As such, there's no point in trying to continue creating our own "aggregate tier list", and we should just readily accept what PG Stats eventually puts out as Ultimate's tier list. Plus their tier list essentially works as an "aggregate tier list" anyway, so those that still insist on Option 3 should be satisfied with them, and I would trust them more to put such together than whatever SmashWiki users could do.

So basically what I'm saying:

• Cancel "Tier list debate: Part 2" and scrap the idea of SmashWiki creating its own aggregate tier list.

• Accept PG Stats as our new source for tier lists for Ultimate and Melee for the foreseeable future.

This topic has been rumbled about a lot in the Discord server for the past year, so it's time to formally resolve it. Omega Tyrant 22:28, April 11, 2022 (EDT)

Fine, do whatever you want.

I guess here is where I'll formally apologize for letting this drag out too long. To be fair, this whole world situation started like a month or two after this started, so that screwed everything up. Since then, I've probably restarted what I was trying to do from scratch like four or five times, and I will admit that I kind of lost what I was trying to actually accomplish in favour of something that was too perfect. I should've broken it into smaller steps and let people in on it more frequently.

So yeah. If you have such a simple solution, go ahead and do it. I have reams of too much other junk to do, I'm getting out of the way. Toomai Glittershine The Undirigible 22:45, April 11, 2022 (EDT)

I support using OT's idea of using PG Stats. VoqéoT 05:07, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

Happy to support using PG Stats, thanks for your efforts Toomai. Toast ltimatum 07:18, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

I support this. Thegameandwatch The Nerd 07:25, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

For what it's worth, we should not refer to it as the "official tier list" as we have done in the past. There is no such thing as an official tier list, and when referencing tier list positions on character articles, we should state clearly that we are using the PG Stats tier list. Alex the Weeb 08:19, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

Support OT's plan. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool 🦊Furry🦊 Gamer (talk) 11:24, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

Support. PG Stats's aggregation of professional opinion and top player results is pretty much the best-case scenario for a Wiki that prides itself on its competitive coverage, while still featuring editors with vastly disparate opinions on, and experience with, the competitive scene. Even if many of our editors (myself included) have reservations about the concept of professional tier lists, so long as a reputable source is doing the dirty work for us (excellent work, at that), why not just refer to their work? There's a great case to be made for the existence of tiers, after all, and so long as we don't try to pretend that our favoured lists are infallible or "official" or anything, there is no harm done in featuring and referring to them. Er... sorry, that was a bit of a long ramble. With thanks and best wishes to Toomai, Samuel the Banjo-Kazooie Boss. 13:04, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

Support. Good plan, using PG Stats would be the best option in my eyes. Your Senpai, Iron Warrior 15:45, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

Support. Obviously, this is great. PG Stats is literally the only way we can at least see an "official tier list", especially when they have updated the Melee tier list when the Smashboards Smash Back Rooms became inactive (potentially abandoned (if so)) with its tier list. Howplayz 23:18, April 12, 2022 (EDT)

Support. as long as we generally discipline the terminology "official", I'm all for PG Stats' being the new gospel, if they release an Ultimate tier list that is. PhantoFantasma (talk) 19:23, April 13, 2022 (EDT)

Support: Nothing else to add that hasn't already been explained. Omega Toad, the Toad Warrior. (I'm the best!) 03:55, April 14, 2022 (EDT)

Support basically what everyone else said. S3AHAWK (talk) 03:57, April 14, 2022 (EDT)

It seems we can declare this proposal passed. Omega Tyrant 16:16, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

PG Stats members quitting; new source options?

From what I've gathered, a large chunk of Panda Global members have been quitting due to some controversy. Considering how this was the wiki's final decision to use their tier list a little less than a year ago, I think there should be some alternate options for tier lists to out here given their situation. I'm not caught up on competitive at all, but it's super jarring to not have an Ultimate tier list here for almost a year and a half after DLC ended, and it'll be even more jarring if we don't have one before the next game is announced (it probably won't be soon, but it's best not to risk that possibility). At this point, although the exact placements of characters vary per tier list, general opinion on characters' viability is somewhat consistent (Steve is a top tier, Ganon is a low tier, etc.) I'm not going to suggest any tier list suggestions since I don't know what's reliable, but I will say the aggregation option might not be a terrible idea if that becomes the best option. Unnamed anon (talk) 13:20, January 3, 2023 (EST)

Even with how old the game is, I don't think we should be in a rush to get a tier list onto the wiki, especially since there aren't any good sources out there. While we have decided on using PGStat's list when the entity still existed, I wouldn't be surprised if we'd agree on adopting a tier list created by a different entity on par with what PGStats was.

As for the aggregation option, I feel like it's not as feasible as before. We've covered something similar through our "in competitive play" sections, which usually state what the general consensus of a character's viability is. In addition, using an aggregate just serves to frustrate more borderline cases, not to mention how opinions on viability continues to fluctuate both as time goes on and between players, so we'd end up in a similar problem to what we had before: what should we base our aggregation upon, and when should we change a character's aggregated tier? CookiesCreme 14:25, January 3, 2023 (EST)