Editing Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1
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{{proposal}} | |||
Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | ||
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There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ||
#'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support'''. It is true that the competitive scene is a very large part of the Smash community as a whole, and it should be noted which characters are most popular for tournaments, and which of them generally perform best. But treating one tier list as objective fact isn't right--even if it might be the most popular tier list and hailed as most accurate, popular opinion is still opinion. Option 3 is good on paper, but it also looks to be very difficult to manage, could lead to debate over which tier lists to aggregate, and, well, it's still opinion. Yes, we should note a character's strengths and weaknesses, and yes, we should note a character's performance in competitive tournaments. But that's where fact ends and opinions begin. -[[User:YoshiFlutterJump|YFJ]] ([[User talk:YoshiFlutterJump|talk]] · [[Special:Contribs/YoshiFlutterJump|edits]]) 01:30, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. It is true that the competitive scene is a very large part of the Smash community as a whole, and it should be noted which characters are most popular for tournaments, and which of them generally perform best. But treating one tier list as objective fact isn't right--even if it might be the most popular tier list and hailed as most accurate, popular opinion is still opinion. Option 3 is good on paper, but it also looks to be very difficult to manage, could lead to debate over which tier lists to aggregate, and, well, it's still opinion. Yes, we should note a character's strengths and weaknesses, and yes, we should note a character's performance in competitive tournaments. But that's where fact ends and opinions begin. -[[User:YoshiFlutterJump|YFJ]] ([[User talk:YoshiFlutterJump|talk]] · [[Special:Contribs/YoshiFlutterJump|edits]]) 01:30, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are just opinions. Opinions don't have a place on an encyclopedic wiki. [[Special:Editcount/PinkYoshiFan|---]][[User:PinkYoshiFan|Pink]][[User talk:PinkYoshiFan|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/PinkYoshiFan|Fan]] 18:45, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. Tier lists are just opinions. Opinions don't have a place on an encyclopedic wiki. [[Special:Editcount/PinkYoshiFan|---]][[User:PinkYoshiFan|Pink]][[User talk:PinkYoshiFan|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/PinkYoshiFan|Fan]] 18:45, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Option 2: New source=== | ===Option 2: New source=== | ||
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#'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | ||
# '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, | # '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support only if we can truly find a good source.''' If we can't find a good trustworthy source then option 1. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AW MAN 5|contribs]]) 13:51, September 6, 2020 (EDT)</small> | #'''Support only if we can truly find a good source.''' If we can't find a good trustworthy source then option 1. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AW MAN 5|contribs]]) 13:51, September 6, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
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#'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, | #'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support''' It might even be good to have multiple lists, or at least link to the results based list for more empirical data. With proper disclaimers it's just as relevant as the old smashboards lists. [[User:Snitchface|Snitchface]] ([[User talk:Snitchface|talk]]) 15:19, June 12, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' It might even be good to have multiple lists, or at least link to the results based list for more empirical data. With proper disclaimers it's just as relevant as the old smashboards lists. [[User:Snitchface|Snitchface]] ([[User talk:Snitchface|talk]]) 15:19, June 12, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Tier lists have a place on this wiki, and should stay. Only issue I can think of is finding reliable tier list sources, but I'm sure the wiki can do it. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 15:43, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' Tier lists have a place on this wiki, and should stay. Only issue I can think of is finding reliable tier list sources, but I'm sure the wiki can do it. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 15:43, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | ||
# | #'''Support''' Indeed, the tier list system currently in place is biased. Seeing the tier rankings on this wiki that treat the information as objective really gets on my nerves. There should be a system in place more akin to how Wikipedia treats ratings for movies and video games. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel the Banjo-Kazooie Boss.]] (Personal conversation [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|here]].) 12:02, July 7, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#"""Support""" Aggregating a score would create an even, un-biased opinion. SmashWiki is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, Smash-related sites out there, and a lot of people (myself included) look at the tier lists for choosing a main and just to see where certain characters stand. As ChilePepp3r said, tier lists can't disappear. Sure, other methods are less work, but this option would solidify tier lists forever, and make SmashWiki the prime site for tier lists. Hence why we need to choose this option. [[User:Super Eli|Super Eli]] ([[User talk:Super Eli|talk]]) 11:55, September 24, 2020 (EDT) | #"""Support""" Aggregating a score would create an even, un-biased opinion. SmashWiki is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, Smash-related sites out there, and a lot of people (myself included) look at the tier lists for choosing a main and just to see where certain characters stand. As ChilePepp3r said, tier lists can't disappear. Sure, other methods are less work, but this option would solidify tier lists forever, and make SmashWiki the prime site for tier lists. Hence why we need to choose this option. [[User:Super Eli|Super Eli]] ([[User talk:Super Eli|talk]]) 11:55, September 24, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' I'm not a huge fan of tier lists personally. However, I recognize that for many people they are a go-to source. I think that as long as they're treated fairly, which aggregation trypically is, I have no issue with tier lists being represented. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; font-size:10pt">[[User:Johnnywellens|<span style="color:forestgreen">JohnnyWellens</span>]]</span> 17:17, October 4, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' I'm not a huge fan of tier lists personally. However, I recognize that for many people they are a go-to source. I think that as long as they're treated fairly, which aggregation trypically is, I have no issue with tier lists being represented. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; font-size:10pt">[[User:Johnnywellens|<span style="color:forestgreen">JohnnyWellens</span>]]</span> 17:17, October 4, 2020 (EDT) | ||
# | #'''Support''' Now I'd waited for my life until the first offical tier list came out and [https://twitter.com/jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313?lang=en|this is the closest so far]. All I'd wanted to say is that no I'm not crazy of choosing this because this has the most, but it has some reason I needed to choose this one for good reasons. These reasons are from option 3 only due to being a bit lazy. | ||
1. Regularly, tier lists can perform with each individual players in their own perspective with these tier lists, not just one. For example, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5EV406Aeq0|Hungrybox made a tier list] and puts each depth by their own experience by tournaments and one from each basic timeline can tell their own opinions. If one looks more official than the others, they put it first due to how easier it is that these lists are, based on tournament results. | |||
2. Arguebally, the main platforms for tier lists and how each person makes one makes it in a private room like Discord as an example. We should justify the places we would arguably make one. If this wiki has one in the future we can put it in the Discord and make some adjustments into it. Notably, I would also try to use Google Sheets to make it cleaner due to how much people are using Google more. | |||
3. Matchup charts were part of the tier list back then which was used for 64-Brawl, but in Smash 4 they completely removed it. This reason is why match-up charts gotta go. It can still be useable but due to many characters being added from the previous installments to now, it's very hard and not able to know these matchups all combined together. This is why Smash 4 lacked the match-up chart, the big roster and DLC characters made it hard for matchups to begin. This was a problem to Mii Brawler in the early ''Smash 4'' meta and Bayonetta in all when she was released. | |||
This is why I gotta choose 3 for a reason with many lackable things like SmashBoards not having one and literally new characters can be hard. But at least we can see other top professional players' opinions. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">''How''</span>]][[File:IkeHeadEatingChickenSSBU.png|20px]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style=" font-family: Caveat;color: Gold;">Playz</span>'']] 23:00, September 28, 2020 (EDT) | |||
==Comments== | ==Comments== | ||
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Could you make a tier list based on character popularity, the best placement at a major, winning/losing MU's etc.? Or would that not work? [[User:Zero Suit|Zero Suit]] ([[User talk:Zero Suit|talk]]) 05:25, September 19, 2020 (EDT) | Could you make a tier list based on character popularity, the best placement at a major, winning/losing MU's etc.? Or would that not work? [[User:Zero Suit|Zero Suit]] ([[User talk:Zero Suit|talk]]) 05:25, September 19, 2020 (EDT) | ||