Forum:Characters you think are the best

Forums: Index → Brawl Talk → Characters you think are the best

As with Forum:Characters you think suck., I created this forum so that people don't go to, for example, Talk:Sonic (SSBB), and say "ZOMFG WTF IS UP WITH SONICS PAGE! IT DOESN'T SAY THAT HE IS TEH BESTEST CHARACTER IN BRAWL!!!!!!!!!!! ZOMG WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

Please discuss your views and please refrain from flaming.

O, Mighty Smoreking 23:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Peach for awesome :D Seriously, Peach is good. She has great mindgames with the Turnip, can aerial combo well, Usmash can kill as early as 80%. I just don't know why people hate her so much. JtM =^] (talk) 23:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Anybody who is a Kirby character. Meteorite (talk) 23:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

KIRBY! YAY >('o'v)Learner4 (talk) 01:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

LUIGIIIIIII!!!! (with a light blue colouring making him Aluigi) Alex25 (talk)

Olimar. He is fast, strong, and overall the best character in my opinion. (or IMO, whatever).--Windu223 (talk) 11:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

JtM, are you talking about Melee Peach or Brawl Peach? I know Peach was excellent in Melee, but I heard she was nerfed in Brawl.

Anyway, Snake is the best character. It's not because he's in top tier; he IS good. Snake is completely broken in terms of his tilt attacks. His uptilt is godly powerful, has a disjointed hitbox that can hit an opponent a FULL BODYLENGTH in front of him, AND comes out like lightning. It can kill Jigglypuff at around 80% fresh. His forward tilt combo is also worth mentioning, as the initial knee attack can Jab lock while the final kick has the knockback of a smash attack. His down tilt is the least powerful of his tilts, but it has excellent range (not disjointed, unfortunately) and is still strong for a down tilt. Stop Tooting (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Snake has no disjointed hitboxes, all of them are damageble sides his projectiles. And a full bodylength ABOVE him you mean. Which is not much looking at other characters.

Brawl, which is why I ask why people hate her just because she got nerfed. Snake has more disjointed hitboxes than the game itself. Snakes up tilt hit an opponent(for me) that was on the other side of the platform on Yoshi's Island. :o JtM =^] (talk) 23:42, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Wolf. He's fast and powerful. two perfect things. Masterman Be Afraid,Very Afraid!

In SSB, Donkey Kong. grabbing the foe and taking him or her down with you helps you a lot, especially if you have more lifes than they do. Melee, I'm not sure, possibly Zelda/shiek. Brawl, ROB and Pokemon Trainer. Solar flute (talk)

I have to agree with Jtm, why does everybody think peach is bad? Happy Haloween.

She just is. :P - GalaxiaD (talk) 21:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Whoever said Snake has no disjointed hitboxes...you clearly have never played as him. O.o And I didn't make a typo; his up tilt CAN hit an opponent without even making contact with the opponent. Try it in Training mode. Stand about a bodylength in front of your target and use up tilt. If it doesn't hit, then you're too far away so move a tad bit closer. Either way, when you hit the opponent you won't even touch him/her. Sound like a disjointed hitbox? If you still aren't convinced, check out Smashboards. Stop Tooting (talk) 14:43, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Stop Tooting is right. His Knee Lock is also very disjointed. It has twice the range of what really appears. - GalaxiaD (talk) 21:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeahhhh no he doesn't, he's like Mr Game and Watch in that his range is bigger than it seems. But he CAN be hurt by hitting the attacking hitboxes which means its not disjointed :P - Hatake91 (talk) 02:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

you make no sense and yes he does. You have obviously never played as Snake. his Utilt has giant range in front of him as well as the rest of his tilts. A disjointed hitbox means an attack that has larger range then it seems and USUALLY can not be hurt. This is one of the cases where the disjointed hitbox can be attacked and hit Snakes hurtbox. JtM =^] (talk) 03:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hatake, I see why you think Snake's attacking hitbox can be hit. But you fail to see WHAT his attacking hitbox is. It's not just his leg; it his leg PLUS a huge space in front of his leg. Obviously if you DIRECTLY attack Snake's leg after he uses up tilt, he will be hurt. But the up tilt's hitbox EXTENDS BEYOND HIS LEG. If you use Mario and punch the air in front of Snake's leg, Snake won't get hit. It's disjointed. Unless of course, you get another Snake to use his up tilt on the attacking Snake. Stop Tooting (talk) 18:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Hatake just likes to argue. - GalaxiaD (talk) 22:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I do, need to fix that sometime. Anyways, Snake's attacking hitbox is damegeble, unlike the disjointed hitboxes on swords or hammers... So explain how you would consider it to be anything like that? Just because the animation doesn't show the hitbox doesn't mean it automatically is considered disjointed. - Hatake91 (talk) 23:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Look, the members of SWF have called it a disjointed hitbox. The people have spoken, JtM =^] (talk) 23:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

/facepalm.jpeg CAFINATOR ^Indeed 00:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

What JtM said is true. EVERY gaming site I've been to has said stuff like, "Snake's up tilt is disjointed," Snake's tilts are very disjointed," "Snake has some disjointed tilt attacks, especially his up tilt," and so on. You are the only person I've seen who thinks it's not disjointed. That's simply because you haven't played as him very much. How do I know you haven't played as Snake very much? Because you said earlier that Snake's up tilt couldn't hit an opponent in front of him. Every Snake player worth his money KNOWS that Snake's up tilt hits above him as well as in FRONT of him. So before you say anything else about Snake, learn about him.

P.S. I enjoy arguing as well. =p Stop Tooting (talk) 00:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I FACEPALMED AT THE FACT THAT he posted like he was worshiping that place. I've facepalmed so much...I forgot how to...I think it involves palm trees. CAFINATOR ^Indeed 00:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

You shouldn't automatically assume I don't use Snake if I think one if his moves is different. I HAVE used Snake many times and yes, It does have a bigger range than the animation seems but a ton of moves do that...Falco's Forward Smash anyone? And yes I know Smashboards thinks it is disjointed but they aren't always right are they? You believe what you want to believe and so will I. Now lets just end this pointless argument. - Hatake91 (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Deal. Let's end this, NOW. But as you started the argument, I demand the final say.

I did three tests to see whether Snake's up tilt is disjointed. The results? Positive. It IS disjointed. And I'll tell you what I did, so you can try the tests as well to see for yourself.

1. Firstly, I got Lucario to charge up his Aura Sphere and left him there. Then I got Snake behind Lucario and made him walk into the charging Sphere. He got damaged by the sphere. Next, I attempted to use Snake's Neutral A combo on Lucario. But when Snake punched, the Sphere damaged Snake and stopped the combo. Finally, I used up tilt on Lucario. And Snake didn't get damaged; instead, Lucario was sent flying. Conclusion: Snake's up tilt is disjointed.
2. Second test: I got ROB to shoot his Gyro near Snake. Then I got Snake to walk into the Gyro. He got damaged. Then when the Gyro disappeared, I made ROB shoot another one near Snake. When I used Snake's up tilt on the Gyro, Snake didn't get damaged. I know Snake hit the Gyro because when I used up tilt, I saw sparks come out from it. Conclusion: Snake's up tilt is disjointed.
3. And lastly, I positioned ROB in front of Snake, far enough so that Snake's up tilt wouldn't hit ROB. I used Snake's up tilt and then almost immediately afterward used ROB's Neutral A combo (which is fairly long-ranged but not disjointed). Neither character got hit. I moved Snake closer. I used his up tilt, and immediately afterward used ROB's neutral A again. Neither character got hit. I continued to do this, to the point when ROB was inches away from touching Snake when he used his Neutral A combo. If Snake's up tilt was not disjointed, then ROB would have hit Snake by then. But ROB didn't hit Snake. Therefore...Conclusion: Snake's up tilt is disjointed.

There you go. Proof that Snake's up tilt IS disjointed. None of those attacks managed to hurt Snake's up tilt hitbox. If you refuse to accept the truth when it's staring at your face, then you're right; there's nothing I can do about it. It's your opinion. Your lesson for today: Disjointed hitboxes don't necessarily have to be weapons or hammers. Falco's forward smash is nowhere near the range of Snake's up tilt. I mean, when you use Snake's up tilt, his foot goes only straight up, yet it can hit an opponent a bodylength in front of him. Falco's forward msash is MEANT to hit in front of him, so that's not saying anything.

The person on Smashboards who said that Snake's up tilt is disjointed was right. He knows what he's talking about. You should see his thread sometime: he was EVERYTHING about Snake there: pros, cons, attacks, attack percentages, moveset, pressuring techniques, defensive techniques, C4 techniques, nade techniques...Everything!

PS. Sorry, Author of this thred, for messing up your thread. >.< I know you didn't intend it to become an argument over Snake's up tilt. Stop Tooting (talk) 00:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Stop Tooting wins! Fatality! - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">GalaxiaD</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small>^{[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">Talk</span>]]}</small></font> (talk) 20:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Haha, You guys were arguing about Snake's legs :D Meteorite ## Chat here if you're bored. 20:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not convinced that snake's up-tilt is a disjointed hitbox. Snake's up-tilt happens to have high-priority. Y462 (Talk • Contributions ) 23:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, for God's sake. It's a disjointed hitbox, proven through virtual research from Stop Tooting. - GalaxiaD Talk (talk) 23:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

lol go GXD JtM =^] (talk) 00:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Lol Galaxia, I like how you use my name. "Proven from virtual research from Stop Tooting." And "Lol" at Meteorite's comment.

Anyway, I was waiting for someone to counter my proof with one of their own ridiculous theories. Y462, your statement is saying that all disjointed hitboxes have high priority. Who knows, that could be true. But Snake's neutral A combo is also considered as a high-priority move, but it's not disjointed. Stop Tooting (talk) 13:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Stop tooting, I think you had a brain fart. (X-D) It is always true that all distorted hitboxes have high-priority, but it is not always the case that all high-priority moves are distorted-hitboxes. Learner4 (talk) 01:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think I was misunderstood. I did not say that all disjointed hitboxes have high-priority. From my understanding, a disjointed hitbox is a red collision bibble that is never vurnerable to damage. Y462 (Talk • Contributions ) 17:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

What's a bibble? - GalaxiaD ^Talk 23:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I assume it was a typo for bubble. If you can figure these things out, please don't post calling them out :/ --Shadowcrest 23:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Chillax, SC. It was just a little joke. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 23:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Messages that only serve to highlight the mistakes of others aren't funny :/ --Shadowcrest 23:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. bibble is a typo I made that should have been bubble. Y462 (Talk • Contributions ) 14:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Sigh...didn't I just prove that Snake's up tilt is not vulnerable to damage, and therefore is a disjointed hitbox? Read what I did in my last test. ROB couldn't damage Snake's hitbox. And no, I didn't misunderstand you; in fact, I perfectly understood you. I think YOU misunderstood ME. Your statement was unclear; it SOUNDED like that you thought all disjointed hitboxes have high priority. Which, in fact, may be true. Isn't it logical? If a disjointed hitbox can't be hit, then obviously it's going to have high priority over a normal attack.

So you refuse to believe that Snake's up tilt is a disjointed hitbox, even with proof? Then tell me what WILL convince you. Stop Tooting (talk) 01:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is another test you can try out. Repeat the tests you did before but instead of using Snake's up-tilt, use Jigglypuff's pound. Jigglypuff's pound is a high-priority attack that I am sure is not a disjointed hitbox. If one projectile attack succesfully hurts Jigglypuff, then I am sure I will believe that Snake's up-tilt is disjointed with ease. Y462 (Talk • Contributions ) 14:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I pwn with Kirby. SapphireKirby777 (talk) 18:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi is by FAR the best character with pikachu in a far second.By Zoshi#1 12 November 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.66.192 (talk • contribs)

You couldn't have chosen a better attack than Pound. >.< Its hitbox is messed up. I tried a test with ROB's Gyro. The first time, Jigglypuff was damaged when it tried to use Pound on it. When I tried it again on a new Gyro, Jiggly didn't get hit. Then I tried it on Aura Sphere. Jiggly hit Lucario most of the time, although Jiggly got damaged several times as well. Then I got Falco to shoot his laser at Jiggly while using Pound, and the Pokemon got hit every time. Pound's hitbox come out kinda slow, apparently. Do you know any other moves that are high priority and come out fairly fast? Stop Tooting (talk) 23:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Smash attacks may work such as Wolf's forward smash. The reason that I chose pound is because I have seen it eat through weird stuff before. For the most part though, your original tests seem much more promising now that another high-priority attack was used. In other words, the theory of Snake's up-tilt being disjointed is now significantly easier for me to believe. Y462 (Talk • Contributions ) 01:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Decision! Final test results are in. The question: is Snake's up tilt a disjointed hitbox? Read on and see for yourself.

I got the ideal projectile to act as the test: the Ice Climbers' Ice Shot projectile. As you know, Ice Shot is actually two projectiles, one ice block from Popo followed immediately by another from Nana.

1. First up was Snake. I used Ice Shot, and then got Snake to use his up tilt on it. Both ice blocks were successfully knocked away in the other direction. More trials proved that Snake could knock both blocks away every time.
2. Wolf was next with his forward smash, as you mentioned. He could hit the first block away, but the second block always managed to hit him. That's surprising: Wolf's forward smash is multi-hitting, so it should have hit the second ice block away. That further supports the fact that Snake's up tilt is a disjointed hitbox.
3. Next was Diddy Kong with his forward smash, which is also multi-hitting. Results? Same as Wolf's.
4. Finally, I used Marth, whose forward smash is no doubt a disjointed hitbox. The results were the same as Snake's: he knocked both blocks away every time.

Note that I didn't use Jigglypuff's Pound. I found out that it has a long-lasting hitbox, similar to a Sex kick, so obviously it would hit both blocks away every time.

So... disjointed hitbox or not? Stop Tooting (talk) 18:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems a lot like a disjointed hitbox, especially when comparing Snake's results with Marth's. I will now assume that Snake's up-tilt is a disjointed hitbox because of the results of all of the test.Y462 (Talk • Contributions ) 22:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Final Analysis: Snake's U-Tilt is a disjointed hitbox. 'Nuff said. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 23:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, haven't responded in a while, the discussion actually got me to fix my homebrew channel, get codes from my friend that slow the game down to see if my hypothesis was correct.

Hypothesis-Snake's U-Tilt hits far in front of him due to the fact he has a few frames of the leg extending out in FRONT of him

Experiment -I got a small black blur approximately the size of pikachu a few frames before the attacking. What is so interesting is the fact that if you pause the game, you'll never see the black blur without the homebrew channel or Gecko.

Conclusion-There is no definite answer from this to me. I'm going to just say it would be classified as undefined for now. oh and obviously MULTI attacks won't hit two ice blocks when the ice block and attack have to occur in the same frames. This test only proves duration as long duration moves hit both, or moves that have huge priority like Falcon Punch.

Experiment-Snake U-Tilt range is studied and I find his max forward range, using proper timing and repeating over and over again, Every time Lucario's Aura Sphere goes against Snake's U-Tilt. They are both canceled out, a sign of usual disjointedness but also could just mean high priority. BUT unlike any other disjointed hitbox his attack is plain cancelled, no sure fire disjointed hitbox does this.

Conclusion-Inconclusive, will take a very long time of study to find a definite answer, so don't bother me with this anymore please. - Hatake91 (talk) 21:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It. Is. Disjointed. - GalaxiaD ^Talk 23:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

In SSB64, I always find Pikachu and Donkry Kong good. Solar flute (talk)

The best Character is definatly...Asha'men!(look it up,read the book!)

The best in SSB was Kirby. The best in Melee was either Marth, Fox, or Mario. My personal best in Brawl is Ike, but the best character overall is Marth.L33t Silvie ^{I see wat u did thar...} 00:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

YEP !!! MARTH ALL THE WAY ! Metalink187 (talk) 09:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

My favorite characters are Pikachu and Lucas. And, of course, my favorite color is yel-BLUE! Accoolx (talk) 19:16, 2 March 2012 (EST)

Meta Knight is cool. And I like his cape/wings. And he has some of the best recolors. I also like Peach, because she's cute and she can float. --ThePinkMetaKnight (talk) 17:50, 16 March 2012 (EDT)

Ike is very powerful and his moves can be extremely dangerous. Stranger 1260 23:52, 8 April 2012 (EDT)

I use Marth,Peach,and Ness so I think they're pretty good.Heisei-Paratroopa (talk) 00:48, 23 September 2012 (EDT)

Snake, totally. He is the perfect weight so he doesn't die easily but he isn't slow. His up special gets him really far, and he can still attack after he starts to fall. His aerials are great for getting Smash Balls, and his dash attack is really helpful. Of course my second choice is Kirby. Jellybeanman (talk) 21:41, 11 October 2013 (EDT)

Which characters do you use most?

I use Meta Knight and Kirby the most because they are nicely balanced. I love Kirby's copy ability and Meta Knights mach speed sword attacks, they are brilliant.

Use Blue Kirby (Newt) to get every one. 2nd, Lucario because he has blue balls. I ate a box with Newt and he grew huge. Green kirby is rex, white teto, and if there was a brown he would be bub.

Just look at my name.Meta Ike (talk) 20:08, 21 February 2012

Luigi=) The Cheese 21:42, 29 July 2012 (EDT)

Mr. Game and Watch. He even won a Wi-Fi match. Only character I use to do that. ShupaRoeh 21:56, 29 July 2012 (EDT)

Kirby, Snake, Lucario, and Ike, they are all really good. Plus Kirby with Ike's, Lucario's or Snake's special is really powerful. Jellybeanman (talk) 10:39, 12 October 2013 (EDT)

I think Luigi is grossly underrated... The reasons why, you ask? (You didn't, but I shall elaborate forthwith regardless.)

• His recovery/aerial movement is broken as shit.
• His traction allows for a MOVING crouch taunt! (#winning)
• His up-angled Forward Smash's interruptability is also broken as hell.
• He has a fantastic forward aerial, and a great aerial game overall.
• His taunts. I mean, seriously.
• His Final Smash, though unused professionally, is pretty fantastic on small, neutral stages.
• Green Missile is a fantastic recovery/escape option.
• The Waluigi outfit.
• The list goes on...

Need I say more? Who's with me...? ....Anyone? --Oasidu (talk) 01:01, 10 November 2013 (EST)

• While his recovery is above average, his aerial mobility is among the worst, since he has a very slow air speed, and his extra jumping height can't reliably make up for that.
• His traction also makes him have terrible punishing options and a very poor ground game.
• His interruptible fsmash is hardly relevant in actual gameplay.
• Green Missile is not the greatest recovery move; while it provides decent distance, it has horrible ending lag and can easily be interrupted by a hitbox. Awesome Cardinal 2000 08:23, 10 November 2013 (EST)

I think Link is one of the better ones in the game. Slower doesn't always mean worse; look at Ike and King Dedede, for example. They are at good positions, despite being slow. If anything, Link should be 19, the most balanced position, due to his very, very balanced gameplay. Mario may have been balanced in the other two games, but in Brawl, Link takes the cake for most balanced. That is all I can say as to why I use Link and why he's one of the best. Requiem fo Ice (talk) 15:51, 10 November 2013 (EST)

Both Ike and King Dedede may be slow, but they have massive range to make up for it, and therefore have superior spacing; they also have a few quick attacks to set up for combos, while Link has no such attacks, and relies on hard reads to KO. Link has nothing to space besides his zair, which does negligible damage, and he isn't just slow in movement, he's slow in attacking too, with even his fastest attacks having notable lag. Link's approach is also terrible, as while his projectiles are good, he lacks a good air speed or air game, especially with the loss of L-canceling that makes his moves punishable even if they manage to land. Link also has one of the worst recoveries in the game because his bomb jumping and wall grappling have been severely nerfed from Melee. Link is not the most balanced character because his high KO power and decent vertical survivability are extremely overshadowed by these negative traits. In fact, Link might be one of the most polarizing characters in the game. --Timson622222 (talk) 16:45, 10 November 2013 (EST)

Along with what Timson said, Link has abysmal matchups against many characters. Basically, one just needs to force him offstage, and then he's already in a terrible position, being really vulnerable to gimps and edgehogs. He can't exactly avoid them easily either due to his poor spacing, approach, and combo options, despite his good projectiles. No way is he "very balanced", he's just a big gimp and combo target. Scr7(talk · contribs) 17:02, 10 November 2013 (EST)

Link's spacing is actually pretty decent since he has long-ranged sword attacks as well as his zair, and his up tilt is a good juggler at low percents, and his back aerial and forward aerial can do a lot of damage at low percents as well. Awesome Cardinal 2000 17:25, 10 November 2013 (EST)

Link's only half-decent spacing move is his zair, which is okay due to having very little landing lag, but it also does very little damage and knockback. His sword attacks are too slow and laggy to be effective. His up tilt and back aerial are okay combo moves, but they don't compensate for his difficulty comboing. Scr7(talk · contribs) 17:29, 10 November 2013 (EST)

Of course, you have to think; why do Ike and King Dedede have such good spacing? It's their aerial attacks. Look at Link, Ike and Dedede's N-Airs. They are all good spacing moves, albeit Link's is the least used, only due to a prejudice of the attack. If you use it at 50% and above, you will see a noticeable change in knock back; such as the case of Ike and Dedede. Now look at the F-airs; Ike's is the slowest, but it gives considerable knockback. However, Link's traps opponents to lead into other strategies. Dedede's can do both. Now we go into recoveries; Ike's is downright abysmal in horizontal or vertical range, depending on if you either use his Up Special or Side Special, respectively. King Dedede, despite having some good amounts of jumping, can be knocked out of the stage further than Link due to his enormous build. This makes Dedede resort to his recovery move, albeit him being knocked too far from the stage to recover. As for Link, I agree, Timson, he does have a bad recovery, but if you go in-depth on his recovery, you can see that his recovery has been mostly unchanged, only if you do not include Bomb Recovery and Tether Recovery. Onto speed, of course, Link is slow, but Ike is much slower. Making it more precise, you need to time Ike's attacks much more perfectly than Link's. King Dedede, on the other hand, is the fastest of the three with ground attacks. In air, however, I have to give it to King Dedede. In power and knockback, all of them can do very decent knockback at low percentages, but of course, Link and Ike are easier to predict than Dedede, Ike being the most predictable. In the air, Link's knockback can shift fast once damage is high enough. Using Link's N-Air, F-Air and B-Air is crucial to his advantage in air. If I have to say, King Dedede is the best of the three, Link in the middle, and Ike, the worst of the three. Of course, things change. They always do. I just play Smash to study the game, trying to find new things left undiscovered. EDIT: Of course, I left out something; Link's N-Air and B-Air can have very decent spacing range due to them ending before Link lands, so Link can use his second jump and attack again, should the opponent still be close to him. Requiem fo Ice (talk) 17:48, 10 November 2013 (EST)

Dedede's nair isn't exactly a good spacing move, his bair is what he uses. Ike's nair is also mediocre compared with his fair and bair to a lesser extent.

Link's Brawl recovery is much worse than in Melee, as you can do much more effective bomb jumping strategies in Melee (throwing the bomb up then using up B into it), plus the wall grapple is so much more useful in Melee since it can grab onto areas other than the ledge on some stages to avoid edgehogging, which you can't do at all in Brawl. Thus Link should usually use his tether when close to the edge, but most opponents will easily be able to run off the stage then grab it. Otherwise, he's completely reliant on up B, with the very situational timed bomb jump being an option that mostly requires luck (pulling out a bomb at the right time). As I explained before, his up B is a very poor recovery move.

Dedede doesn't always have to resort to up B like you said, due to his midair jumps and bair/fair allowing some protection. Plus, his up B is damn hard for most characters to stop, due to its priority and super armor.

Ike's recovery may give poor distance, but it allows really great protection. The first few hits of his up B can hit edgehoggers, then the final hit can easily be landed to meteor smash them. If he is knocked away from the stage so that he has to recover horizontally from high up, his side B at least allows a pretty good horizontal distance.

Ike generally has more favourable combo options than Link (especially his amazing jab cancels) and his KO moves are usually considered to be easier to land and more effective. While Link and Ike both have their decent spacing options, Ike's fair is known for its huge horizontal and vertical range that generally gives him better spacing, along with things like f-tilt and RAR bair.

And about Dedede, he is certainly the best of the three, no one can really argue with that. Scr7(talk · contribs) 11:15, 11 November 2013 (EST)

If you do not include the infamous "Bomb Jump" nor tether recovery, which I explained previously, Link's recovery has not changed whatsoever. The strategies may have changed, but the move has not. A little note is that if any short stage, like Battlefield, is chosen, Link can "Battlefield Bomb Jump" to the other side, making edge-hogging nearly ineffective; of course, if you happen to stage spike, and not tech, it's going to backfire.

However, if Dedede uses up all of his jumps, it's pretty much over for him, should he 1) Not be able to recover, 2) land on the ground instead of the ledge; this ends up being a bad decision against powerful characters, or 3) recover cancel...

Ike's recovery does have a few "side effects" to it. There's the "6th Ledge Grab Fail", gimping, "certain special attacks", etc. And as for his side special...he's REALLY screwed if he is blown away by Link's Gale Boomerang; and you call Ike's Side B "effective".

Let's see here; Link also has much more options when the opponent reaches 50% damage; this includes propelling the opponent with a down throw and using either N-Air, F-Air or B-Air, DACUS>Aerial Attack and many other tactics. Link can also use AA>S-Tilt (which he uses his S-Tilt instead of his third jab), D-Tilt>S-Tilt, etc. (Again, another reason that I have to do a Smash Bros. In-Depth series.)

Dedede is quite the good fighter, too. (I still say Link should be 19th, the balanced position, though.) Requiem of Ice (talk) 01:11, 12 November 2013 (EST)

Yeah you could bomb jump under the stage, but you need to be at a very specific percentage, and it's also very situational, along with being very difficult to actually set up. If you're knocked from the stage at the percentages necessary for doing that, you probably won't have long enough to wait for the bomb to explode, and even if it does, you definitely won't be able to go under the entire stage. That doesn't nearly compensate.

I didn't call Ike's side B an all-around effective move, I said it can gain good distance if you're knocked high horizontally. Of course it leaves him vulnerable and it's easily telegraphed, that's not refutable at all. Ike's recovery, as I said, gains poor distance, but his up B gives him among the best protection for any recovery move, and since the distance Ike gains is still adequate to recover in most situations, this immense recovery protection puts his recovery on the poor side, but not completely terrible like Link's.

You mentioned some Link combos. Yeah, they are effective if you can actually land them. Ike also has many usable combos, most notably in his jab cancels. His jab can cancel into itself repeatedly to rack up 25%+ damage, and it can easily cancel into moves such as grab, u-tilt, and d-tilt. Ike's jab is also much more difficult to punish than those combos, as even when shielded, characters with average to poor OoS options have difficulty beating it, plus the third hit can punish someone who spot dodges the first two. Ike's individual moves such as fair, bair, u-tilt, and so on compliment this. The Link combos you mentioned, most of them sound rather punishable, and if one keeps trying to get a grab to use d-throw, they'll become really predictable. Scr7(talk · contribs) 12:00, 12 November 2013 (EST)

Link's zair is not a "half-decent" spacing move, it's really good. It has really long range, comes out fast, and has no landing lag (If you look an attack like Marth's fair that's good at spacing, those are the properties that make it good at spacing), and doing low damage and knockback isn't a significant factor in spacing, as long as it does enough to push the opponent away from you it's fine. His projectiles can also help in spacing and camping. A combo is something that's used to rack up damage at low percents, and Link's zair, bair, and up tilt, can lead into each other well and/or deal a lot of damage, and the lag on any of those attacks is not as bad as you are saying it is. Ike's combo ability and spacing may be better than Link's but that does not mean that Link's combo ability is bad, and just because a character is low tier doesn't mean they have absolutely no positive traits and that they are to be regarded as 100% terrible. Awesome Cardinal 2000 16:46, 12 November 2013 (EST)

Link's zair's range isn't actually that long, it's above average, but not excellent like Samus's zair. I didn't say Link's combo ability is absolutely bad just because he's low tier, I said it's worse than Ike's. No way in hell did I say Link has no positive traits and/or is 100% terrible. Scr7(talk · contribs) 16:50, 12 November 2013 (EST)

Link's zair is still one of the best-ranged aerial attacks in the game. Awesome Cardinal 2000 19:20, 12 November 2013 (EST)

(Wow, so many replies.) I have a few more good things to say about Link, Dedede and Ike, respectively. If you can have enough time, you can easily air dodge out of a vertical Bomb Jump to regain momentum faster and more efficiently with Link; this can also happen with Z-air, which, if close to a ledge, grab it (as long as there are no edgehoggers). He can also still edgeguard with Spin Attack, just save it for higher percentages, unlike his S-Tilt. Finally, Link can also cancel his own jab, which, like Ike's, can give Link more options; just simply use the first two parts, walk a little, and use a stronger attack. With King Dedede, due to his surprising recovery height, does have enough options against the opponent, including a mind-game by using an attack to force the opponent to get up or stage spike them, so he can recover more easily. He can also, like Kirby, use his Neutral Special move to take the opponent down; however, he has an easier time to recover, and he can also shoot the opponent under the stage, making the opponent desperate (unless it's Samus, MK, Kirby, Luigi, Lucario, Peach, etc.). And with Ike, he does have a combo ability, which can be sometimes devastating, but the timing needs to be perfect. You don't necessarily need to "Ken Combo" with Ike, just time it well with a good N-Air>DJ>D-Air; his D-Air is extraordinarily useful on Halberd or Delfino Plaza when the stages go up, but the timing and damage need to be perfect. And as I have learned, against Link, if he is blown away by the Gale Boomerang, he may have a chance to be blown upward instead when using Side Special. That's all I can say to my knowledge so far. Requiem of Ice (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2013 (EST)

Mr. Game & Watch. He may be knocked back very easily but damn, that bucket braking technique could be considered broken by some. He also has some amazing finishers with low start-up lag, (down smash anyone?). He definitely deserves a higher placement than 16. FireMario1534 (talk) 21:07, 18 November 2013 (EST) mr. game and awesome get teh pikachu for meh! ive been banned from scratch! halp meh! Gime me a Mewtwo! 17:18, 12 August 2014 (EDT)