User talk:Toomai/SSB4 tweaks

My comments on your tweaks

I would say, this is much better than what I seen from other users. Here are some comments on your suggested changes:

Make it so that once player A throws player B, A cannot grab B until B enters a state where they can act.

I don't think chain throwing should be removed altogether (they are essentially combos that involve regrabs). Instead, extra precaution should be taken to avoid creating infinite and zero-death chain throws.

Attacks to Bowser's shell deal 0.5x damage.

I also think eternal heavy armor added to his shell would also be a good idea, if not having it everywhere.

Fix Egg Roll. Give it reasonable hitboxes; give Yoshi some sort of protection while rolling.

Removing helplessness would also help.

Don't make all of MK's sword attacks transcendent.

Instead of this, keep his sword attacks transcendent, but make his sword shorter, and make the Tornado transcendent. His disproportionally high reach is a greater problem than his sword attacks being transcendent, and keeping his sword attacks transcendent gives his a sword an interesting gimmick (like how Marth's sword has the tipper gimmick).

Cause Dedede's down throw to always knock the opponent down. Alternatively, give it an angle in the 70 range or non-fixed knockback.

I think what Balanced Brawl did would be the best thing to do (have it knock down all opponents closer to Dedede). This would remove the infinites, make his d-throw equally effective regardless of the opposing character's weight, and would allow his d-throw to still be valuable.

Have some way of approximating how much damage the trailer Ice Climber has (e.g. exhausted standing animation once above 100%).

Couldn't this be done by implementing the battle damage that was planned for Brawl? Omega Tyrant 13:32, 5 April 2012 (EDT)

Chain throws: Brawl was a better game for having less combos, so the comparative ease of chain throws is unbalancing. I had thought of an alternative: a character cannot be grabbed for 10 frames (by anyone) after being thrown.

Bowser: Changed idea so that Bowser's shell outprioritizes everything. So you have to use something transcendent or a grab. There are various ideas that can go there.

MK: I personally don't think a transcendent sword is a gimmick, nor that MK's reach is too big.

Battle damage: No I don't want battle damage on characters. It would be like PT's Pokémon looking fatigued. Toomai Glittershine The Sharp 18:47, 6 April 2012 (EDT)

Giga Bowser

Would Bowser's final smash be changed if Giga Bowser were made a boss? Also, I'm not so sure about Ike gaining Quick Draw as a meteor smash. Other than making the move quite a bit similar to Captain Falcon's, it would give Ike even more options to edgeguard (and he already has 3 spikes). Rather, he should regain his second jump after landing Quick Draw. Mr. Anontalk 21:28, 5 April 2012 (EDT)

I don't see how Giga Bowser the boss and Giga Bowser the Final Smash are incompatible; the only difference would be that the FS version can't flinch.

Quick Draw being a meteor was the alternate idea; not causing helplessness was the main one. I don't think moves should ever provide extra double jumps. Toomai Glittershine The Sharp 18:47, 6 April 2012 (EDT)

Sacrificial K.O.'s

You suggest they should favor the user, do you mean a sacrificial K.O. such as Bowser's Flying Slam or do you also allot less cliche sacrificial K.O.'s like attempting to meteor smash (or non-conventional walls of pain done by characters with only two jumps not counting their up special, etc.) an enemy at a point off stage where recovery isn't possible? Blue Ninjakoopa^(Talk) 18:31, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

I mean the Flying Slams, Flame Chokes, Cargo drags, Kirbycides, etc. Those other sacrificial KOs are infeasible to code for and should not favour the user if they muff up. Toomai Glittershine The Sharp 19:57, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

"Remove Brawl's ability to act while taking knockback. "

Doesn't this remove meteor momentum canceling? Mr. Anontalk 22:18, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

By "Brawl's ability" I mean how they added the ability to dodge and attack while still flying (and therefore allow momentum cancelling which is flat bogus). Meteor cancelling is a Melee addition and is completely legit. Toomai Glittershine The Incomprehensible 22:38, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

Sorry I did mean momentum cancelling. So you favor removing that? Mr. Anontalk 23:20, 31 August 2012 (EDT)

I consider it like wavedashing in that it's an unintended physics case whose application has resulted in changes to character balance, except much more significant. The ability to act while in hitstun is pretty dumb in concept anyway; though I appreciate attempts to remove combos from the game, this was a dumb way to do it. Toomai Glittershine The Wacko 00:03, 1 September 2012 (EDT)

Something like Wavedashing

Yes, I know that true melee wavedashing will probably never return (Sakurai can go die), but I think the concept of the game having some form of advanced movement that allows approaching with all ground options would be nothing but beneficial for the game. You have many options out of walking yes, but it's far too slow to approach with. And if you dash, all you have is dash attack, dash grab, and maybe a few specials (character dependent). No it does not have to be tech skill intensive. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 18:27, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

|3rian, you say it doesn't have to be tech skill intensive because you have no tech skill because you are Nintendo. Conny 19:20, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

Why should we break the balance between something slower with more options and something faster with fewer options? Toomai Glittershine The Obfuscating 20:17, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

That balance is already broken by the fact that you can jump out of a dash; approaching with aerials is universally better than dashing or walking. This was the case in Melee too because of the falling speeds, but definitely to a lesser extent that it is in Brawl, because there was wavedashing to keep ground options valuable. And this balance isn't just about approaching, it's about speeding up the game in general. With something that allows quick ground movement in addition to retaining all ground options, you add much needed competitive depth to the game; the new mix-up options would result in spacing becoming more critical and the shield becoming less broken of an option (seriously that was a huge problem in brawl, where you can wait out the slow brawl approach options by sitting in the shield along with the lack of combos making grab rewards extremely poor). What's wrong with a much needed dose of speed?--Brian^{Don't try me!} 20:30, 26 August 2013 (EDT)

1 more thing. Really having few options out of fast approach options is a pretty dumb idea imo. This is effectively punishing you too harshly for trying to be offensive and also effectively slows down the game too much. That's poor game design. Yes, I know Melee wasn't perfect on the offense vs defense balance too, but it was a hell of alot more balanced (in general most matchups favor offense slightly over defense). At least among the melee top tiers, characters had options that rewarded both defensive and offensive play. Melee's balance offense/defense concept was pretty good: playing defensive stops you from losing, but doesn't secure the game for you; only playing offensive and taking risks will let you take the game. In brawl, this concept doesn't exist. As I stated before, nerfing the fast approach options makes going offensive too punishable. So not only does playing defensive stop you from losing, but it also doubly assures you have a better shot at taking the game. (Yes I know this is matchup dependent even in Brawl. But really only MK has any advantage going offensive in matchups due to the fact he has both better and more options than every other character). --Brian^{Don't try me!} 20:46, 26 August 2013 (EDT)