Talk:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate/Archive 3

NOTE: This talk page is to discuss the content of the article we have on the upcoming Smash game, not to discuss the game itself. Read our talk page policy before commenting on here, specifically:

Do not post here about what you think of the game's content.
Do not post here what content you wanted to see in the next Smash game.
Do not post here about what you think of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate in comparison to the other Smash games.

If you want to discuss Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, take it to the forums. This talk page is only for discussing the content of our article.

Featured Article

How did this page become a featured article? It was widely opposed since the game hasn't been released yet and that we don't know if there's anymore content. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 22:51, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

Because we are not using the FA system for a while due to high traffic, I flipped it over to this article to get rid of pocket. This article is more than complete enough to be featured. All of the oppose votes were from before the recent Direct, and the article is considerably more complete now. Serpent King 21:33, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

Smash Ultimate Character Order

The website for Ultimate not only lists the stages in their own order but also the characters. If we're going through the trouble of having the stages in releases order, why not the characters in their numbered order? I understand grouping the characters by series may be easier to find them, but doesn't it make sense to make it match the game's order? (of course newcomers would still be separated) I feel the Mario Wiki did a great job doing so (even adding their numbers and emblems) https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate , can't we do here too? 47.199.44.226 (talk • contribs) 06:34pm, 13 August 2018 (EDT

This is already being discussed here. Voqéo T 18:39, 13 August 2018 (EDT)

(I am just an anonymous user, so my statement may not mean much.) I feel like we should put the characters in their numbered order. This is the first time we have an actual confirmed order. The last time this happened (in a sense) on the wiki was for Smash 64, where the characters matched their select screen locations. None since have matched the order like that on the wiki, instead being ordered by the game series inclusion into Smash with a few exceptions. On the character pages, we can do something like what we’re doing to the stages that were in Melee. For example, Onett is “Eagleland: Onett”. The characters on their Ultimate page can be like “10: Ness”. I really like how it is currently done on the Mario Wiki for Ultimate https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate With the only surprising thing being that it’s on the Mario Wiki and not the Smash Bros. Wiki. They even included the character’s series’ logo, and if there’s additional info (Like with Pokémon Trainer and pallet swaps). All that said, I feel like we should at least sort them by their number/select-screen-location. 47.199.44.226 (talk • contribs) 12:34am, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

Either the character order or the stage order should be changed. It feels inconsistent to have the fighters listed by series, but the stages listed by debut. Either we should adopt the Fighter # system for the character section or re-order the stages to be by-series rather than by debut. --Burb (talk) 16:10, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

It would make sense to change the order of the characters to match the numbers since that's what Nintendo is doing for Ultimate. But yeah, it does seem off if the stages and characters orders do not match each other. (talk • contribs) 10:19pm, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

I would just edit it myself, but I can't as an anonymous user since the page is currently "protected". I also feel it would be easier to change the order of characters on the page as there are less than the number of stages. Can someone please change the order of fighters to match their number order for Ultimate?(talk • contribs) 11:08pm, 28 August 2018 (EDT)

The order of stages has already been changed to match the order of stages we use for all other games. We will not be ordering characters by their Sakurai numbers on this page for the same reason. Toomai Glittershine The Yoshi 23:12, 28 August 2018 (EDT)

Was that decision made to keep consistency across the wiki? I can't think of any other reason to keep that order in Ultimate's case. Also, when was that decision reached? Because I don't see it on this page.(talk • contribs) 11:30pm, 28 August 2018 (EDT)

Just out of curiosity, why aren't we putting the characters and stages in their Ultimate orders? I checked some other wikis related to Smash before writing this to see if any did so, and out of the ones that list more than just their respective characters, the Mario, Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing, Mega Man, and Nintendo wikis have them in their numbered order. (The Mega Man wiki has the option of listing them by number while the Mario wiki keeps the newcomers separate) Like "47.199.44.226" had asked before, is it just to keep consistency on the wiki? Regardless if its not done because there doesn't seem to be a purpose for the order in the game, it still seems kind of weird to me. At least with the other installments the wiki order sort of match the games' with few exceptions. I also like "47.199.44.226"'s suggestion of putting the number for the characters' Ultimate pages (At the very least mentioned). (Can someone please explain in detail for these?) Wolff (talk) 22:02, 18 November 2018 (EST)

SmashWiki is not official; we do not have to follow the game's order. Plus, it's inconsistent with all other games. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 22:47, 18 November 2018 (EST)

I thought one of the points is that was suppose to be inconstant with the previous installments? I get that we don't have to follow what is official if it is not a big deal or changes much. Regardless, I was just curious why it was not following it. Thank you for informing me. ) It still feels really weird not following it (At least not for the time being). Wolff (talk) 22:57, 18 November 2018 (EST)

Yoshi's Island location

I feel like Yoshi's Island should be after Yoshi's Story The Smashing Hit (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

About that. The Stages page on Ultimate's website has Yoshi's Island after Story, even though Story came before Island in Melee. Also, new discussions are to go in seperate sections (just click the "new section" button at the top of the page). Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 21:22, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

Codec Conversations and Palutena's Guidance

Do you think both Codec Conversations and Palutena's Guidances will return in this game.

That doesn't matter now. This isn't what the talk page is for. Also sign your comments. 75.141.57.33 19:51, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

The Silhouettes at the reveal trailer

I remember there being some talk over who the silhouettes were and the page said that Samus, Bowser, and DK were clearly viewable. I thought that if we didn't include any other characters we shoudn't include these three. Now that Dark Samus was revealed, would you have still said Samus was clearly viewable? 98.116.134.108 15:41, 22 August 2018 (EDT)

This seems like a pointless thing to argue about now that it doesn't matter. Laikue (talk | contribs) 11:46, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

I'm not arguing, it's just that the some users say the wiki isn't for speculation. If a similar scenario comes up in the future, I'd say we just not assume anything at all. 98.116.134.108 13:47, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

We know it's not Dark Samus through deductive reasoning. A lot of articles for the game have observations that are based on deduction rather than being able to directly handle those aspects of the game. There's a difference between that and haphazard speculation. [[143.115.155.57 18:32, 17 September 2018 (EDT)]]

WHERE THE HECK IS WALUIGI

Waluigi was only made to give Wario a partner —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stormaggedon28 (talk • contribs) 11:41, September 3, 2018 (EST)

This is improper use of a talk page. See SW:TALK.

Also, please sign your comments by typing four tildes (~~~~). See SW:SIG. —

Nokii (T·C·L) 09:04, 3 September 2018 (EDT)

Music Page

Should we create a "Music (SSBU)" page to start collecting confirmed pieces? Obviously we don't yet have enough info to do the series-music sub-pages yet, but I'm wondering if it's worth starting on the music page for the game as a whole. However I'm unsure if it's worth it with which is why I'm asking here for more informed opinions of more experienced wikiers whether we don't have enough info to justify it yet (with just under 200 tracks confirmed) or whether it's worth getting it somewhat ready ahead of time to reduce the effort when the game releases. TheDavsto (talk) 15:32, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

We already have the confirmed music under the universe pages, it's best to wait until launch to do something like this. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 15:39, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

Makes sense, thank you TheDavsto (talk) 16:38, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

Acknowledging "bonus" (model swap) characters

Hello there. I'm sort of new to the SmashWiki. If no one minds me suggesting this, shouldn't we acknowledge on the Characters section of Smash Ultimate's confirmed content that Alph and the seven Koopalings are once again playable via Olimar and Bowser Jr.'s alternate costumes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smashkirby (talk • contribs) 03:04, 23 September 2018

Please sign your comments with four tildes (~) and also, all new topics go at the bottom of the page. Additionally, said information is already included in the footnotes. 72.133.91.93 22:28, 22 September 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

smash ultimate characters

how come the koopalings and alph aren't on smash ultimate pics

Please remember to sign your comments with four tildes (so four of these: ~) and we’ve never had photos for the model swap characters. As I told the last person who asked this, they are already mentioned in the footnotes. 107.77.218.90 16:41, 26 September 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

Sheik is a boy?!

So the newest blog post is about Shiek. It say: Now Sheik joins the battle wearing the Sheikah costume from The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Keep the pressure on your opponent by using his speedy dash to quickly close in on (or get away from) your opponent! This summary refers to Sheik as "he". Does that mean that Sheik is a boy?! If so, then how does that make any logical sense?! Sorry if this isn't what discussions on this wiki are for, if that's true, then you can let me know. I just wanted to point this out somewhere. 24.6.217.5 23:10, 1 October 2018 (PDT)

We're already aware of it. I don't think this changes our stance on the matter though. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 02:30, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

That's a typo/mistranslation. SuperFalconBros (talk) 09:52, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

Probably not very likely, given the 'mistranslation' is translated in other languages as well. Check for yourself, don't just take my word for it. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 10:04, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

Why is that unlikely? The other languages were either translated from the English translation, carrying the error forward, or they were translated from the original Japanese, which doesn't have any gendered pronouns/possessives in it in the first place. It's a well-known issue with Japanese translations that you have to insert gendered pronouns that were not present in the original text, and someone who isn't knowledge about the character, or got careless, used the wrong one here. Not to mention, the blog posts in other languages I understand (French and Spanish) either don't use a pronoun/possessive at all, or use a gender-neutral one (like "ses" in French). SuperFalconBros (talk) 10:16, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

We'll have to wait and see what pronouns are used in the final release of Ultimate. However, while I agree that it could very easily be an error, Sheik's gender is notoriously inconsistent. It's only recently that Nintendo of America has solidified that Sheik is female, and even then their are inconsistencies (such as where Sheik is referred to as a "young man" in Zelda's trophy description in Smash 4).. It is just as likely intentional at this point. Nintendo101 (talk) 16:46, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

(indent) I really disagree that it's inconsistent at all. I don't even think there should be a "gender dispute" section in the article here, it's so cut and dried. Most things people point out as "inconsistencies" are from OoT itself or from materials around the time of OoT's release, which referred to Sheik as male because the character's true identity was a secret. It's not all that different from the manual of the NES Metroid referring to Samus with male pronouns. And Zelda's trophy description says "she takes on the guise of a young man named Sheik." That's not a contradiction; it's just saying she took on a male persona. And you're right that we can wait until the game comes out, but even when it does, and inevitably refers to Sheik as female as always, I fear what should be a minor trivia point ("the Smash blog once mistakenly referred to Sheik as male") will be enshrined as an "inconsistency" in this entirely moot debate. SuperFalconBros (talk) 17:04, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

It actually is quite different from Metroid, since the NES manual calling Samus a guy was a one-time thing; every other mention of Samus, Metroid or otherwise, calls her a female.

In regards to Sheik, however, given how inconsistent the Smash Blog seems to be, I think that it's very likely that this was an error, and that it will be fixed later; this is just speculation on my part, and we could very well see something consistent later. Aidan, the Spooky Rurouni 19:23, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

Given the earlier mention that one of Zelda's trophies in Smash 4 refers to Sheik as a "young man" (and the avoidance of any pronouns in Sheik's tips), it's likely that NoA uses masculine pronouns when they're trying to hide that Sheik is Zelda, and feminine pronouns when they're not. For what it's worth, although Japanese does have gendered pronouns, it's very easy and natural to write while avoiding them entirely (this also happened with Sukapon's Smash Blog entry). I doubt that it'll be changed, though, and the final game will probably use the same guidelines as Smash 4. DryKirby64 (talk) 20:30, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

I'm belaboring a point here, but the line from the trophy description is that Zelda "takes on the guise of a young man named Sheik." This is not hiding anything, it is explicitly stating that Sheik is a male persona used as a disguise by Zelda. You can say that the in-universe character of Sheik as acted by Zelda in OoT is male. You cannot say the out-of-universe Nintendo character called Sheik is male, since she is just Zelda in diguise, and no official material has ever been inconsistent on this point. SuperFalconBros (talk) 21:55, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

Official references to Sheik as male were also a one-time thing, within the script and promotional materials of OoT itself, and never again after that. As I said, what people cite as recent official references to Sheik as male are entirely misconstrued references to the male persona of Sheik as acted out by Zelda in OoT (such as the Zelda trophy description). SuperFalconBros (talk) 22:01, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

The fact that the official posts have all been using she pronouns aside from one case makes it clear the outlier is the error, especially when we have consistent precedent since 2001. That's all there is to it. Miles (talk) 22:31, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

Was just about to talk about this until you beat me to it. Not sure if anyone has seen this, nor am I certain if this helps close the case, but I thought it was worth posting here. John

HUAH! 22:34, 2 October 2018 (EDT)

Sheik is most likely still female (although there are theories that zelda changes gender when transforming), but is often referred to as male due to the majority of ingame characters thinking that sheik is male. ProLink (talk) 09:08, 20 December 2018 (EST)

Newcomers for SSB Ultimate

Could we separate the newcomers for SSBU into two rows, one for the unique ones and the second row for the echoes? While keeping the franchise order as it is right now, of course. It would provide a little more clarity, as the epsilon symbols next to the echoes is quite small. --GenoBeam (talk) 02:02, 11 October 2018 (EDT)

Confirmed Items

On the item page, MinorEdits added lip's stick to the list of confirmed items for Smash Ultimate, 91.163.209.65 added POW block and pitfall to list of confirmed items, and CiciPop added deku nut to list of confirmed items. Can someone please tell me where these items have been seen? 24.6.217.5 16:29, 29 October 2018 (PDT)

Grammar: 'Amount' vs 'Number'

The word 'amount' is used incorrectly three times on this page. You can't say "amount of characters", "amount of stages", etc. You can only use 'amount' for things you *can't* count. It should be 'number' instead. It's used incorrectly once in the stages section and twice in the trivia. Mike4Lifexx (talk) 21:36, 18 November 2018 (EST)Mike4Lifexx

It's fixed now, thank you for pointing that out. Ponyshment

21:46, 18 November 2018 (EST)

Marx Boss Fight Footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPTOoyU78C0&feature=youtu.be 174.126.188.47 18:51, 24 November 2018 (EST)

Coin Battle Mention

I feel as if in the trivia section under 'This is the first Smash Bros. Game to: - Remove the Coin Battle mode since first being introduced in Super Smash Bros. Melee. Thought I would put it here. Brittmfain (talk) 16:40, 25 November 2018 (EST)

it comes out tomorrow

I'm excited to play smash Sammybambam11 (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2018 (EST)

We're all excited, but this is the wrong use of a talk page. This place is for serious discussion and not idle talk. Mexi (talk) 09:58, 6 December 2018 (EST)

OK where can I say it Sammybambam11 (talk) 10:05, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Anywhere but the wiki, to say the least.

Sonic, the Cheerful Speedster

10:08, 6 December 2018 (EST)

Stage Hazard Toggle Info

Ultimate's stage hazard toggle affects each stage differently. Might it be a good idea to document this with a new section in each stage's page, similar to the section for the Omega and Battlefield forms? Munomario777 (talk) 17:54, 11 December 2018 (EST)

Names of regular attacks

The tips section of Ultimate provides the name of some standard attacks, such as Lead Headbutt for Mario's up smash and Tornado Kick for Fox's forward aerial. Is it worth adding these to the name section of the movesets in Smash 4's character pages or in Ultimate's, if they will be added eventually? 98.116.184.165 15:32, 14 December 2018 (EST)

Challenger's Approach

I believe that "Challenger's Approach" should be added to the "Menu and UI changes" section as a new gameplay mode(?). Unless there's another place this could be put in. ChefLaur (talk) 08:54, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Addition to "Aesthetic Changes"

Barely visible smoke particles will emit upwards from above your character's model to indicate they have exhausted all of their available midair jumps. PatrickVFX16 (talk) 14:18, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Additionally, a slight pillar of flame or whatever appears on a fighter who had been hit to show the direction they're going to get launched, it's easier to see with Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot but it always happens. 98.116.184.165 18:37, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Additional info for perfect shields

I think the info that after a perfect shield, the attacker suffers 3 more frames of lag then the perfect shielding player should be added to the Paragraph about perfect shield changes from SSB4. I would add this myself if the page wasn't protected. ProLink (talk) 09:04, 20 December 2018 (EST)

Names of standard attacks

In the Nintendo Power strategy guide for Melee, the names of every standard move are given. Many are consistent with the Ultimate counterparts given in the tips section (like Lead Headbutt, Electric Flower, Straight & Cannon Hammer, etc.), so I think we should add the names for moves that haven't changed from Melee to Ultimate. One argument I've seen is "Just to be safe/consistent, I'm removing these names for normals since none are mentioned in-game." I feel that it's more speculative to remove them for not being mentioned in game, since it hasn't been confirmed that they would all have changed names. Few moves have changed names though (like Meteor Knuckle, Jump Slash, etc.). If we were given the names in Melee, and many are still consistent, it's logical to add them back. After all, when Super Smash Bros for the Switch was announced, we didn't need official confirmation to know that Mario and Champion Link were in the game, their names weren't mentioned but the physical appearances were consistent. Luigi86101 (talk) 12:09, 3 February 2019 (EST)

(This is the same person) Additionally, Smash Wiki is not official and it's against the rules to remove a term for not being official, not to mention that these terms even are official. Luigi86101 (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Why does no one check this page?

For being a talk page, people sure don't really talk. The last few topics brought up good points but since no one checks this page, they're never considered. I understand that this may be improper use of a talk page, but this is a big problem. Luigi86101 (talk) 19:00, 26 February 2019 (EST)