Talk:Clone/Archive 5
Luigi is not a semi clone
Luigi is not a semi clone because he has completely different moves than Mario. Crocodile Dippy 2 (talk) 10:52, 10 December 2018 (EST)
- He's been a semi-clone ever since Melee, Croc. The changes made to Mario in Smash 4 still apply to Luigi as well, even if his grabs and throw have been drastically changed. Plus, two of his moves (up tilt and forward tilt) were slightly recloned to resemble Mario's again, and he still has the same up and back aerial animations as Mario as well.
Sonic, the Cheerful Speedster
11:07, 10 December 2018 (EST)
- Luigi's status as a semi-clone has been subject to debate since SSB4. If we look at his current moveset, he shares a similar neutral, back, and up air, forward and up tilt, up and down smash, and similar standard and up specials. Meanwhile, his jab, dash attack, down tilt, forward smash, forward and down aerial, side and down special, final smash all variation of his grabs, all throws, running and walking animations, helpless animation, idle animation, screen KO, character physics, and jumping animations are completely unique. Furthermore, some of his moves like Super Jump Punch have radically different properties that further distinguish him from his red counterpart. These differences put him more in line with Wolf. OldLink5 (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2018 (EST)
- No I mean Luigi is not a semi clone in Ultimate, not in other games. Crocodile Dippy 2 (User talk: Crocodile Dippy 2) 19:18, 10 December 2018 (GMT)
- Luigi's status as a semi-clone has been subject to debate since SSB4. If we look at his current moveset, he shares a similar neutral, back, and up air, forward and up tilt, up and down smash, and similar standard and up specials. Meanwhile, his jab, dash attack, down tilt, forward smash, forward and down aerial, side and down special, final smash all variation of his grabs, all throws, running and walking animations, helpless animation, idle animation, screen KO, character physics, and jumping animations are completely unique. Furthermore, some of his moves like Super Jump Punch have radically different properties that further distinguish him from his red counterpart. These differences put him more in line with Wolf. OldLink5 (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2018 (EST)
It is very difficult in general to draw the line at which a character is no longer a semi-clone. I have a project that attempts to do so, but until I can complete it, things should stay as they are for now. Toomai Glittershine 
The Pan-Galactic 10:45, 14 December 2018 (EST)
I think it's more straightforward that we think. Clones are characters like Daisy, or Richter, or Lucina, who share virtually all the main attributes, body frames, and attacks with their source, with a different visual design, maybe a few different animations sans taunts and victory poses, and MAYBE a few, minimal gameplay tweaks. So you don't really play them differently from their source. These clones are NOT balanced standalone.
For semi clones, it's any character who is based on, but with significant changes to either attributes, attacks, skeleton etc. I think Luigi, Wolf, Pichu, Dr Mario, Isabelle etc. all fall into this. With Dr Mario, his attributes and properties changed so much that playing him like regular Mario isn't viable, so he is basically a unique character in tier lists and strategies. Pichu doesn't share a single animation with Pikachu now despite it's basic moves having a passing resemblance. Wolf has similar special moves but many differences in his mechanics, even if he is based off Fox. These characters ARE balanced standalone.
- Agreed on the two paragraphs above. This was essentially my two types of clone argument, which is already backed up by quotes from Sakurai.Furballcan (talk) 11:34, 21 December 2018 (EST)
Non clones are NOT directly based on another character. Rosalina for example isn't based off anyone. So is Palutena or R.O.B or Greninja, or Bayonetta. --SmashingAlbert (talk) 05:46, 15 December 2018 (EST)
I think that at this point in the series, our boy Weege isn't a clone anymore. With a unique jab, dash attack, fsmash, stilt, fair, dair, side b, down b, grab, throws, and animations, along with different physics and properties on some of his moves make me think that the green-hatted plumber is, and should be, separate from Mario (at least in Ultimate).
Super Eli (talk) 05:15, 3 January 2019 (EST)
Thanks to OldLink5 for the list of his Luigi's moves. Super Eli (talk) 05:16, 3 January 2019 (EST)
Wolf in Ultimate
Sorry, if you're still going to list Lucas and Luigi in the Ultimate clone section, then you have to also list Wolf. The three of them are certainly a step above clones and semi-clones but it's pure favoritism to single out Wolf as special. He's still a character who has moves (all specials and final smash) clearly derived from another (Fox) and not anymore unique than either Luigi or Lucas compared to their original. 72.89.170.85
- Agree, Mario/Luigi and Ness/Lucas are clearly now different from each other more than Wolf/Fox. Jf811 (talk) 10:38, 14 December 2018 (EST)
Please read the section on Wolf in Brawl; it explains that Wolf's relationship to Fox is very unclear and hard to compare under the rules that work for other characters. Until we have enough time/resources to determine whether this holds true for Ultimate, things will stay are they are. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 10:42, 14 December 2018 (EST)
- Again, this is a distinction that somehow only applies to Wolf. You didn't need to find the time/resources to determine if it still holds true for Luigi or Lucas in Ultimate before listing them. Wolf even has less unique moves compared to Fox in Ultimate thanks to the loss of a unique neutral air, meanwhile Luigi got an entirely new set of throws and Ness/Lucas got a different up air. Between the three sets, Wolf is the only one that got less unique from their base in Ultimate, but somehow he needs more time before he's listed (even in an other section like with Brawl) but Luigi and Lucas are added right away.72.89.170.85 00:26, 20 December 2018 (EST)
- Agreed. I made a post earlier about how there are only two types of clones. Echo fighters who are clearly marked as such, and non-echo fighters that still have a clear parent fighter. That's it. How many differences, and which ones matter more, and if its the animations, or function, or frame data, or name (in either English or Japanese), and charts that count percentages of moves are all arbitrary headcanons by the fans. Wolf, Luigi, Lucas, Isabelle etc are all clearly based off of Fox, Mario, Ness, Villager etc. But they have enough differences to not be echoes, even if some have more glaring differences than others. The only person who would be in contention is whether the Marth spectrum stops at Chrom or goes all the way to Ike, but where Wolf goes is obvious. Furballcan (talk) 11:26, 21 December 2018 (EST)
Can we stop trying to define semi-clone?
Look, I think we're all tired of the endless debates. Is Luigi still a semi-clone? Is Ganondorf still a semi-clone? Was Wolf ever a semi-clone? And honestly... who the heck cares?
Sakurai has blessed us: he has given us an official definition for clone 9 times out of 10. They're clearly separated in Melee and Smash 4. The whole Echo Fighter thing in Ultimate. Brawl clearly has no clones. And Luigi's "differences from Mario" section on the website speaks for itself. We can state these characters are clones with full confidence!
No such luck on semi-clones. And yeah, SmashWiki is not official -- but y'know what? None of the fans have ever bothered to define semi-clone, either. Toomai made a pretty good chart... and then he remade it and somehow ended up with completely different results. Guys, even a single person can't agree with himself on what exactly makes a semi-clone! Do you see a problem here?
Of course, we can't ignore semi-clones outright. That would be stupid and a huge hole in our encyclopedic nature. But can we stop trying to be the end-all be-all source on who is or isn't a semi-clone? What we should be reporting on -- what is fact -- is that no one can agree (bar a few exceptions). This page is a hot mess, honestly, and a lot of the mess would be cleaned up if we just stopped trying to justify our baseless definition of this equally baseless term.
So I drafted up an example: User:TheNuttyOne/Clone. Semi-clones are no longer given walls of text; they are given brief references in the opening paragraphs. The characters who are widely agreed upon are said to be widely agreed upon. The characters who are debated are said to be debated. If the readers want to know more about their differences and similarities, they're welcome to open their individual pages -- this is a page on clones, which briefly discusses the highly controversial nature of semi-clones.
Leave your thoughts. I probably won't respond to them because I fully expect to be ridiculed for this suggestion and don't have the energy or patience to deal with that. TheNuttyOne 01:14, 20 December 2018 (EST)
- Sounds good to me Furballcan (talk) 11:26, 21 December 2018 (EST)
Your idea changes semi-clones from "usefully explained" to "not usefully explained", but it still marks such characters as semi-clones, and thus does not accomplish what you say you were trying to do by letting readers make their own decisions.
Also, I did not get "completely different results" when I remade my clone system. I think Wolf just moved a bit because of new stuff I discovered since the original version. No characters' status were changed. Toomai Glittershine The Incomprehensible 12:02, 21 December 2018 (EST)
- I have to agree with Toomai; you use the term "semi-clone" 25 times in your attempted fix, which doesn't really stop defining the term. And, to be completely honest, what of "semi-clone" is unclear? It is not a clone, but it is also not unique, so it's partially a clone; a "semi-clone", if you will. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 12:33, 21 December 2018 (EST)
Exactly! Also Nintendo and Sakurai already gave us a definition of a full clone, and dataminers have found that it is almost entirely accurate.. I suggest we just go by it. Also, can we please add Wolf back to this as he does have significant differences that people might not understand, but is clearly built off Fox. --FloraBlola2 (talk) 12:49, 26 December 2018 (EST)
Can the title be changed to Echo Fighter??
Hello, Smashers. I know that they are still clones, but Sakurai has provided us a official term, so now clone word is in disuse. While I do get there are semi clone, now that there is a official term, I think it could just be me, but saying 'clone' just feels wrong. Can we get the title to be changed? Michele (talk) 12:22, 26 December 2018 (EST)
- No. "Echo Fighter" is just a label for full clones in Ultimate who debuted in SSB4 or Ultimate. Zakawer2 (talk) 12:35, 26 December 2018 (EST)
- We've discussed this before, and, echoing Zakawer2, it's just a term for full clones in Ultimate (though I don't know if it's exclusive to non-Melee clones). And besides, we aren't official, so we don't necessarily have to go by the official term used now. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 12:51, 26 December 2018 (EST)
Memoryman3 is using IP addresses and sockpuppets to edit this page and insert his clone nonsense.
Admins, please place this page, alongside those of Dr. Mario, Young Link, Pichu and all Echo Fighters in SSBU, under permanent (not temporary) semi-protection to prevent Memoryman3's sockpuppets from editing this page by any and all means whatsoever. Zakawer2 (talk) 17:25, 27 December 2018 (EST)
- As much as I think the above message is a SW:QDV violation, I agree. SW:PROTECT even reads, "A page or image that has been a recent target of persistent vandalism or other persistent nonconstructive edits by a banned user." That is EXACTLY what is happening here. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 17:34, 27 December 2018 (EST)
- I also agree. From what I can tell (and comparing a past sockpuppet IP he used), Memoryman3 is most likely using a VPN or proxy to edit the clone section. It doesn't seem like Memoryman is going to stop, either, until his "point" stays on the wiki. SugarCookie420 (talk) 17:43, 27 December 2018 (EST)
- Don’t be silly, the admins will never protect this article, they simply don’t take vandalism as seriously as they used to. 198.8.84.214 17:45, 27 December 2018 (EST) - The Scribbler
This is stupid. The edits he has done are actually pretty factual and unbiased. In fact, they line up more with offical explanations and info. All echo fighters have exactly the same parameters with few exceptions such as Dark Samus' shield size (11 -> 11.7) and Ken's 10% faster run speed. --162.243.163.104 18:45, 27 December 2018 (EST)
- I have to agree. I have no idea why people are taking issue to Memoryman's edits when he's actually adding useful and relevant information to the page. --Luigifan18 (talk) 19:24, 27 December 2018 (EST)
Dr Mario, Pichu and Young Link are now semi clones.
Sakurai has given us a definition of a full clone in Ultimate.
※攻撃力やふっとばし力、歩行・走行速度、ジャンプ力、重さなどの基礎パラメーターが、オリジナルファイターに対してほぼ同じのファイターのこと
Basic parameters such as attack power and launch power, walking and running speed, jump height, weight, etc. are about the same as the original fighter --66.85.140.114 08:42, 4 January 2019 (EST)
- Right, they're semi-clones. So why do you keep edit warring saying they're not clones at all? It doesn't matter how much in the right you think you are, your methods of editing and trying to get your point across are highly disruptive. Good on you for taking to the talk page this time, but that's what you should have been doing in the first place. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 09:20, 4 January 2019 (EST)
- By that measure, Ken (who is regarded as an Echo fighter) is not a full clone. I feel like clone distinctions are inconsistent in general for Ultimate, so while developer explanations are a handy guideline, they're not the be-all-end-all for determining clone vs. semiclone.
Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 09:48, 4 January 2019 (EST)
