Talk:Alternate costume (SSBU)/Archive 3

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Chrom's alt colours

Currently we don't have much in regards to Chrom's alts, so I'd like to throw my hat into what they might be referencing. For reference, I'm using this video to see the full costumes.

  • Default
  • This might be Walhart, due to the deep red throughout, as well as the black undertones.
  • This is almost certainly Gangrel. The dark main coat with gold highlights, as well as a yellow cape on both sides just screams Gangrel in my eyes.
  • Owain (already on the page)
  • The dark main colour along with the brownish/orange highlights, and dark blue inner cape may reference Gaius, one of his support options, though this one's more tough to say. Looking closer at Gaius his cape is more clearly black, so this is less likely. It could well be Lon'qu instead, as he has a similar black undershirt, blue cloak, white leggings, and yellow highlights.
  • This is very likely Sumia, one of Chrom's possible love interests. That shade of purple and pink highlights are unmistakably hers.
  • Kellam (already on the page)
  • This is the most difficult for me to ascertain. The black main colour along with the purple highlights may be referencing Brady, one of Chrom's possible future children, but there are quite a few black/purple colour schemes around Awakening. Plus, the light blue buckles are throwing me for a loop.

If anyone has any other ideas, please throw em down. — Small portrait lyon fe08.png Xamad (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2018 (EST)

I can see Gaius, but the one that really makes sense to me is Gangrel. That’s spot on and almost certainly the case The black costume looks a bit like Inigo’s but the white portions aren’t wiutec there. ImBeingHelpful (talk) 22:15, 12 December 2018 (EST)

The one you say to be Gangrel is green in color, which does not match Gangrel's black. I'm also going to argue against Sumia, as the costume does not take into account Sumia's lighter-colored armor. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 23:34, 15 December 2018 (EST)
Fair enough point with the green alt, though I can't agree with the current part about Stahl. Stahl's design doesn't really have any notable yellow in it, as his highlights are more of a pale white.
As for the purple one, it does take into account Sumia's lighter-colored armor. There are visible lighter highlights on his clothes, and even a pink chest-belt buckle. — Small portrait lyon fe08.png Xamad (talk) 00:32, 16 December 2018 (EST)

Jiglypuff's Red costume

Its hibiscus is according to the site based on Phoebe from Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire (2002) However, the costume was present in Melee, released before Ruby & Sapphire and only the gen 1-2 were represented in melee. Jf811 (talk) 22:01, 15 December 2018 (EST)

Incineroar’s Inverse color scheme

The black and red color scene that is a partial reversal seems to be related to the first stage of the evolution line Litten, who has the majority black color scheme. It makes sense to be a reference to it. Shawksta (talk) 12:39, 16 December 2018 (EST)

The black Greninja is NOT based on Shiny Ash-Greninja

The alt I'm referring to is Color 4 - the one where Greninja's primary skin color is black, but with an orange-ish underbelly and head, and a very orange tongue. It debuted in Smash 4 (as you can see here) and the costume has not been modified at all in its transition to Ultimate. Smash 4 is a 2014 game. Ash-Greninja (and its Shiny form) were only introduced to the Pokemon games in 2016. How could a costume older than the attributed reference possibly be its source of inspiration? This should be removed.

There are several problems like this throughout the article, such as with Bowser's pink-haired alt suddenly being based on Giga Bowser's appearance in Ultimate despite predating it in Smash 4.Nintendo101 (talk) 16:06, 16 December 2018 (EST)

Daisy’s pink

Obviously resembles peach, just like Rosalina’s pink, don’t know why this isn’t updated unless “it’s a different shade ornament can’t be”, which is dumb Shawksta (talk) 18:54, 16 December 2018 (EST)

Luigi's Yellow Alt

Is anyone going to remove what it says about Luigi's yellow alt on the page? It's inaccurate, as it is still green in-game. Though maybe it could be noted that in the render it's yellow, in-game it's green, and on the stock icon it's a light blue color for some reason. Luigi1234 (talk) 23:00, 16 December 2018 (EST)

Bowser's Grey Alt

I feel that this alternate's guess for the reference is incorrect. It seems to be a more dated reference, representing Bowser's original design from the Japanese boxart for Super Mario Bros, rather than Morton's original design from Super Mario Bros. 3. AnotherGlossy (talk) 23:50, 16 December 2018 (CT)

Hi, AnotherGlossy. The thing is that Bowser's gray alt in Ultimate was first introduced in Brawl, in which it existed alongside another alt of Bowser's more definitively based on his original design from Super Mario Bros. (Compare the "blue" alt here - where Bowser has a yellow mane, dark green skin, and a blue shell - to artwork of him from SMB here and here.) I think it's noteworthy that Bowser's gray alt was introduced before the Kooplings received new designs in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and long after they were relevant. I think the alt compliments its contemporaries more with that in mind. The majority of the costumes in Smash are carried over between installments. I would recommend comparing what has already been said on previous alternate costume pages before contributing to the Ultimate article (especially with Smash 4). Thanks! -- Nintendo101 (talk) 12:30, 18 December 2018 (EST)

Protection

Do you think we could pull this back to semi-protected now? The debate about Incineroar's alt resembling Infernape has kinda died off now. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 05:49, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Incineroar's orange costume: the conclusion?

Well, it's been about a week since the page was locked due to the edit warring over this debate. As Black Vupine said, the debate seems to have concluded, since neither Rocket nor I have anything left to say and nobody else has offered input. If anyone wants to read the whole thing, it's in talk archive 2. It's lengthy, but be sure to read the whole thing and consider everything carefully.

I'm not trying to start this up again. On the contrary, I'm hoping to end it.

So, by my count, here are the results to the question: Based on the palette (i.e. the colors used) and composition (i.e. how the colors are specifically arranged on the costume), is there strong enough evidence to say that Incineroar's orange costume resembles Infernape? Note that this isn't asking whether it was definitely based on Infernape; just if there is strong evidence to suggest it as a likely possibility. If I am missing any names, or if I have misrepresented your stance, please correct me.

I have grouped the latter two separately from Rocket1908 because they have not expressed strong opposition against Infernape as a possibility.

While 5 is not a large sample size and therefore by no means a consensus, it is the majority of those who have voiced an opinion on this debate. I think it may be worth noting that, when the debate began, the numbers were pretty even (Rad Dudesman and Wazzup111 were in support, while Nintendo101 and Rocket1908 were in opposition); since then, the number of supporters has more than doubled, while Nintendo101 (the only editor besides Rocket1908 to remove the Infernape resemblance from the main page) has come around to agree that there is strong evidence in support. Alternative suggestions (Scrafty, Pyroar, and Tiger Mask) have not gained any notable following. Other than that, it seems most people don't feel strongly one way or another.

So, would anyone else like to voice their stance? And if not, is this enough people to un-blank the Infernape reference on the main page? --PeabodySam (talk) 12:00, 17 December 2018 (EST)

You can add me to support. The orange and yellow limbs and partly-white face are at least enough to make it resemble Infernape. --Master Foot (talk) 15:46, 17 December 2018 (EST)
Also, I'm curious about what Rocket1908 said in one of their recent edits: "If none of the references on Greninja and Lucario's skins had good enough resemblance, then this doesn't either." What references are those? If they match as much as the "Infernape" color scheme, maybe they should be added too. --Master Foot (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2018 (EST)
Since I have made some (albeit minor) contributions to this debate, you should probably put me down as "neutral", mainly because while I do slightly support your Incineroar proposition, in the end I find most alternate costumes to be up for interpretation. If you're willing to make a slightly agree category, I guess that works too. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:29, 17 December 2018 (EST)
Yes, there is enough evidence in both colour and composition to rule it out. For the third time, which has been conveniently ignored every time it is brought up, there is no feasible reason to use orange and grey as substitutes for brown and white. There's no graphical limitation or conflict with other skins that would make it impossible to do so. The difference between this skin and something like Blood Falcon or Fierce Deity Link that you used as a reference is that A - those two have texture edits that are undeniably linked to those two source references (the jacket decal and the face paint respectively. there is nothing even close to being that blatant a reference to anything on this skin) and B - the differences in the colours of those are on minor areas such as accessories as opposed to the main body colour. I'd also like to add something I was not able to before the page was archived - a plausible reason for the blue-grey hands is Revenge. The particle effect of Revenge is mostly very orange and yellow in appearance. The difference between this skin and the other skins that likely justifies the change to the hands and feet is that the limbs are orange and yellow. It is very plausible that the use of a blue to contrast these colours on the hands, feet and snout would be implemented for ergonomic purposes, while using a more grey blue specifically as to not contrast too heavily with the rest of the colour scheme. If it was Infernape they wouldn't need to use a blue-grey over a normal blue because blue is actually part of the design and doesn't conflict on Infernape. As for composition they could have easily made the whiskery fur on the sides of the face white (grey) and the snout brown (orange) to actually resemble what Infernape's head really looks like. The ears are a much smaller part in comparison to the rest of the head so to make the colour scheme of the ears take up a close to 2/3 of the head space by making the whiskers brown and the snout blue would make very little sense. The edit I provided in the archive much closer resembles Infernape than the actual skin in both colour and composition. With that in mind, it becomes clear that the rest of the "similarties" can be very simply explained by the fact that they're by-products of the pattern for whatever was actually intended - the abdomen mark following all the striping patterns on every skin except the black one (which was only manually changed due to the fact that the pattern colour was used as the primary abdomen colour, and would be invisble if it wasn't changed.) As for the stripes, they can't and won't exactly remove those, so the skin referencing something orange and yellow obviously means it's going to be orange and yellow striped. It's not necessarily intentional and looking at it in the context of every other inconsistency between this alt and Infernape's design, it seems to be coincidental. So until we find something that actually fits with the design the page should be left blank.
Rocket1908 (talk) 23:55, 17 December 2018 (EST)
I would rather see the space left blank than suggest the alt is based on Scrafty. I agree that there is good evidence supporting Infernape, and that it should be reinstated, but I'm not going to lose sleep if it isn't. Any resemblance to Infernape, for all we know, is just a coincidence, as is the case with most alts with an unverified source of inspiration. Is the white DK based on the Mini Fire Donkey Kongs? Probably not, IMHO. They were a minor component of a minor game. I think it's more likely Sakurai et al. just thought having a yeti-inspired DK would be cool. But I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that the alt does not look similar to the Mini DKs (white fur? Check. Red tie? Check.). They are from the same series. Unlike DKCR's Super Kong, the Mini Fire DKs predated Brawl, when the white DK was introduced. So while I think it is unlikely, I'll certainly concede that it is possible. For this case, I do think a connection to Infernape is possibly just a coincidence. Knowing how Incineroar was added as a wrestling/grappler-character first and a Pokémon second (as was the case with Lucario and Greninja, who also lack alts directly based on other Pokémon), I think Poseidon's idea that Incineroar's alts are based on wrestlers in Japan is very probable, but - much like the Mini Fire DKs - I don't think there is an objective way to argue that a connection to Infernape is unsubstantiated.
For alts that do have attributed sources, I think they reveal some of the design philosophy behind how references are applied because a lot of them are intentionally interpretative and aren't 1-to-1 with the source material. Someone brought this up earlier, but Captain Falcon's "Blood Falcon"-inspired alt has deviated from the original design quite a bit over the years. He wears a lime-colored scarf, and the armor is purple and pink. None of these were the colors used for Blood Falcon's original design. If there wasn't a citation and no unique logo on the back of the suit, I would say any connection to Blood Falcon was unsubstantiated.
Rocket1908, you should assume good faith. I don't think people are "conveniently" ignoring the fact that they substituted orange and grey for brown and white. It is just that you are the only one amplifying its importance. If the alt is based on Infernape, and if the Blood Falcon-alt has taught me anything, they might have changed those colors because they thought it looked nicer that way. I think you have to make more assumptions on why the Incineroar's alt isn't based on Infernape, than that it is.
Black Vulpine, PeabodySam, I agree that 5 is pretty small for "consensus", but I don't think enough of the community will ever care enough to provide their 2 cents. In fact, I don't think anyone has cared as much about this as Rocket1908 has. But this is ultimately a small part of the wiki, and I think this kind of energy and discussion is better served elsewhere. Keeping the article locked is preventing more meaningful edits from being added, and I would like to see it moved back to semi-protected.Nintendo101 (talk) 12:10, 18 December 2018 (EST)
I think we should close this discussion since the consensus is unanimous. And the page protection needs to be lowered to semi-protection due to a low chance of an edit war. George Jones.jpg Corrin Fan Walls Can Fall.jpg 12:23, 18 December 2018 (EST)
Well said, Nintendo101. While I won't deny that there is a part of me that's itching to respond point-by-point to everything that Rocket just said... that energy is better spent elsewhere, especially when I've already addressed most of those points in the previous talk page, and to continue this debate would just continue to be going in circles. It's about time that we wrap this up so that we can unlock the page and move on with our lives.
Corrin Fan, 6 supports and 1 "slightly agree" is hardly unanimous consensus. That being said, I agree with Nintendo101 that we're probably not going to see many more people voice an opinion on this matter, and I agree with you that most of the people who have spoken are people who agree that it is indeed worth noting the Infernape similarity on the main page. --PeabodySam (talk) 16:10, 18 December 2018 (EST)
"I think you have to make more assumptions on why the Incineroar's alt isn't based on Infernape, than that it is." Seriously? Especially since you prefaced that with "they might have changed those colors because they thought it looked nicer that way", which is objectively a much bigger assumption than it not being Infernape because two of the most visible colours don't even match at all. This has to be bait. I've tried to be respectful and "assume good faith" but all of the pro-Infernape arguments have relied on varying degrees of fallacy and inconsistency. The initial argument was that Infernape is orange, and when that was disproven it became specific versions of Infernape are orange, and when even THAT was disproven it resorted to "orange and brown are close enough anyway" and then some stuff about "where does orange end and brown begin?" The way the goalposts moved in this argument make it very clear that it doesn't really look like Infernape, you just want it to. Why would you claim to be done with the argument then not even a week later make this section just to be right? Why would you claim one non-present colour and one off-shade have more weight in discrediting an argument than TWO non-present colours and an off-shade? And I know you're gonna waste your time to come back and accuse me of the same thing. I know you will, so please tell me how much I hate Infernape. Please tell me how much I don't know what one of my favourite Pokemon and the first Pokemon I ever used looks like and how I have this big anti-Infernape bias. I've been familiar with Infernape for the most part of the last decade, and I would probably be satisfied if it was ACTUALLY a reference to Infernape. So if I'm not seeing Infernape even with my optimism and bias how are you? I'm finding it very, very hard to assume "good faith" given all the inconsistencies and reaching used to justify the resemblance. This has to be bait.
Rocket1908 (talk) 22:31, 18 December 2018 (EST)
Also, for those interested, here is from memory all the alts that were previously on the SSB4 page for Lucario and Greninja that were deemed to not resemble the respective Pokemon enough.
Scrapped references from the SSB4 page.
All of these have as much of if not a better case than the Infernape resemblance does. So to add that as a resemblance while not allowing any of these would be inconsistent, and open a very big can of worms as to what the boundaries for a plausible resemblance are and ultimately just create even more arguments.
Rocket1908 (talk) 00:03, 19 December 2018 (EST)
Hi, Rocket. I don’t think there are objective degrees of assumptions. From my perspective, the difference between Infernape’s colors and Incineroar’s colors are subtle, and so thinking that they may have messed around with those color values a little during developement (as we have established they already do), does not feel like too much of a stretch to consider they might have done it here. Again, I think Infernape is probable and worthy of inclusion. My personal feeling is that it could just be a coincidence, but I can’t deny that there is some resemblance. (Though that implied connection to Big the Cat has got to go, imo.) I get that you’re frustrated, but I don’t think anyone is trying to bait you and being accusative of others is not progressing the conversation. Your personal opinions about Infernape in a greater context are not relevant to this discussion, so I don’t think anyone is going to ask how much you like or hate the character. (I’ve always preferred Torterra, but again, that’s not relevant here.)
I look at alts not as an objective whole, but on a case-by-case basis. The known history of how alts are included suggests that there are no objective measures for making the alts (beyond being aesthetically pleasing). For me, a Riolu alt for Lucario would not look like this because it is the same color as Lucario in the Pokémon games. Though I personally agree that Gengar and Lickitung are probable sources of inspiration for Greninja, I strongly disagree on connecting its black alt with its shiny form. Literally only its black skin and opaque glands are the same color, and that only becomes apparent with a direct side-by-side comparison. The webbing should be cyan, not tan. Its underbelly should be black, not beige. Its tongue should be crimson, not orange. As a whole, the alt looks more like Easter candy than it does Shiny Greninja. But that’s an argument for another time... The point is that reinstating a note about Infernape does not mean we should reinstate all of these other ones. Nintendo101 (talk) 08:16, 19 December 2018 (EST)
Once again, a few sites have agreed that the purple Incineroar costume is a reference to Big the Cat, and this is further backed up by the Spirit battle against Big, which uses the purple outfit. So how can you say that the connection is implied, when the game outright references it?--Tailikku (talk) 08:28, 19 December 2018 (EST)
This is an argument for its own subsection, but I would strongly suggest we don’t use Spirit Battles as evidence of inspiration for the alts. If the purple Incineroar is based on Big because of the Spirit Battles, than surely the black Dr. Mario is based on Hal Emmerich, Ridley is based on Medeus, K. Rool is based on the Imprisoned etc. I agree that Chrom’s yellow alt looks like Owaine because it resembles him and is of reasonable plausibility, not because it is used for his Spirit Battle. I guess this might be subjective, but I don’t think associating Incineroar with Big the Cat is of reasonable probability. But I’d rather argue this in its own dedicated subjection. This one is inflated enough as is. Nintendo101 (talk) 08:47, 19 December 2018 (EST)
I agree that is more closely resembles Infernape. I would also like to add that rarely are the alt costumes 1:1 matches, which is why the word "resembles" is heavily employed here. VoqéoT 10:03, 19 December 2018 (EST)
That's a major false equivalency. While it might be true that a lot of costumes don't match 1:1, they at least have the right primary colour(s) and the off-shades or incorrect colours are in the smaller details. Incorrect colours take up more than 50% of this costume. It really isn't feasible to assume orange and grey were meant to represent brown and white, especially seeing as we already proved the composition isn't perfect either.
Rocket1908 (talk) 17:38, 19 December 2018 (EST)
I’m getting to the point of declaring that because this debate has gone on for so long, and more and more people are in support of this (myself included now), and you’re the only one who opposes, continuing to argue about it at this point could be considered counterproductive. You have from time to time attacked some of those who disagreed with you (albeit very restrained), and you are just starting to repeat yourself, dropping half a million words each time and making wading through it all a nightmarish affair for something that isn’t even that complicated. There’s barely anything left of the horse at this point, so let it go. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 17:57, 19 December 2018 (EST)

Simon/Richter alts

Since Simon's eighth color is the only one without anything listed, I thought I may as well as what everyone else thinks it could be.

Some ideas mentioned on the previous talk page were Shanoa and his in-game appearance in Vampire Killer. I definitely don't think it's the latter since, at best, it's a mauve color that's closer to red than purple, which still looks nothing like the purple of Simon's eighth outfit. On the other hand, Shanoa usually wears dark blue in most of her appearances, but at least in her artwork from Order of Ecclesia it's more of a indigo color which is closer to the alt. It's probably not a direct reference to either of them, but it's at least closer to Shanoa. I'm not 100% convinced either way, so I'm wondering if anyone else has any other ideas.

Additionally, I'm not completely convinced that Simon's yellow alt references Super Castlevania IV, as it seems too dark compared to the bright yellow of the SCV4 boxart, though I don't know what else it could be. Richter's black alt being based on Dracula X also seems like a stretch since it has yellow highlights and his headband is black, not white. Not to say it doesn't resemble it, but there might be something else from Castlevania that's a closer fit, though again, I'm not sure what it could be. --Master Foot (talk) 16:39, 17 December 2018 (EST)

A problem with the Shanoa outfit: her ingame appearance and her artwork show her wearing brown more than purple. And Simon's appearance in VK is actually a shade of mauve. The hair color is also a good connection to VK as it is the only time Simon has been shown as a black hair, when all other appearances have him as blond (CVX68000, CV2, PoR), red (CV1, Chronicles), brown (Super Castlevania 4), or even blue (Haunted Castle). Simon's hair in this alt is black much like in VK, comparied to Shanoa's ingame appearance which is brown, although the art has black hair, but even then more recent artwork like in HD and Eternal Knights 2 show Shanoa with a dark brown hair color. Adding to this, only her sprite has purpple on it, all artwork of Shanoa is indigo, including the artwork from Eternal Knights 2 and Judgement. And there is also the fact that Simon's artwork from VK has him with black hair with purple highlights. --Tailikku (talk) 08:37, 19 December 2018 (EST)

Piranha Plant Blue Alt

Seems odd that this of all pages is completely protected (though I can't even create my own userpage so it may be something with my account) but I wanted to add that it resembles the Frost Piranha from the Paper Mario series. The colors on the head match way too perfectly to not have taken inspiration (especially since there's already a Paper Mario reference in the poison move's palette), and since the Frost Piranha changed its stalk appearance between TTYD and SPM I don't think a different stalk matters that much, it could be a double reference. --Fawfulthegreat64 (talk) 18:22, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Hi, Fawfulthegreat64. For me, the issue is that the stalk is yellow, which wasn't the color of the stalk in either of the Paper Mario games it appeared in. The page is completely protected due to an argument about Incineroar's alt. It should be moved back to semi-protected soon.Nintendo101 (talk) 12:16, 18 December 2018 (EST)

Incorrect references for Richter?

Now that we have full renders of all of the alts, it seems to me that Richter's red alt is based on Juste Belmont and his yellow on Julius. The yellow is Julius's shirt, the red headband is his scarf, the brown on the inside of the shirt is the coat, and he's wearing blue jeans. It lines up a lot more than the John Morris thing. As for Juste, if I'm remembering right, the red alt was used for Juste's spirit battle? Regardless, the pants being a lighter shade of white and the boots being darkened makes me think it's supposed to be him. 47.210.85.23 04:24, 19 December 2018 (EST)

Spirit Battles

Splitting this topic off from the Incineroar/Infernape section above, because it is interesting and warrants discussion: how much weight should Spirit Battles have when determining costume references?

We have numerous examples of Spirit Battles using a relevant costume when available. For a "confirmed" (i.e. costumes that we say "based on") example, the Gravity Suit spirit (based on the design from Metroid Prime) uses Samus in her Metroid Prime Gravity Suit costume. For "unconfirmed" (i.e. costumes that we say say "resembles") examples, Mecha Ridley uses the silver Meta Ridley costume, Brittany and Charlie use the pink and green Alph costumes respectively, etc. I think this provides good evidence in support of "unconfirmed" examples where a spirit and costume come from the same series, but it shouldn't always be taken as "confirmation" either; for example, I doubt that Incineroar's orange costume is intentionally based on Victini. This type of argument is probably best considered case-by-case.

However, this leads to the question of a Spirit Battle where the spirit and fighter are from different series. The biggest (pun intended) example of this is Big the Cat, who uses Incineroar's purple costume and has led to some debate over whether or not this is relevant. Typically, I don't think this kind of scenario (spirit and fighter from different series) should hold much weight as evidence for a costume; for example, I don't think anyone will strongly argue that Donkey Kong's purple costume is inspired by Bonkers from Kirby. But if a solid argument can be made that the costume resembles the spirit more than anything from the fighter's home series, should it be taken into consideration?

On the flip side, should a Spirit Battle "deconfirm" a costume? For example, the main page previously said that Dark Samus's pink costume resembles Gandrayda, but I removed this after it was confirmed that Gandrayda's Spirit Battle uses Dark Samus's purple costume instead. However, this same argument means that Samus's black costume isn't based on Kanden, who uses Samus's green costume instead. Despite the fact that I previously advocated for the black costume resembling Kanden, I'm willing to concede that it's likely just a coincidence based upon this evidence, and therefore it should probably be removed from the main page. But, even if a Spirit Battle "deconfirms" a costume that still resembles a particular spirit, is it still worth mentioning the resemblance?

So, what do you guys think? --PeabodySam (talk) 15:24, 19 December 2018 (EST)

Link to Jody Summer's original costume in Captain Falcon's section

The F-Zero wiki has changed their image from the one currently linked (which goes to an empty page) to this: http://mutecity.org/wiki/File:Jody_SummerX.png

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