Talk:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate/Archive 2

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NOTE: This talk page is to discuss the content of the article we have on the upcoming Smash game, not to discuss the game itself. Read our talk page policy before commenting on here, specifically: Do not post here about what you think of the game's content. Do not post here what content you wanted to see in the next Smash game. Do not post here about what you think of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate in comparison to the other Smash games. If you want to discuss Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, take it to the forums. This talk page is only for discussing the content of our article.

HYPE HYPE

EVERYONE INCLUDING SNAKE WOLF POKEMON TRAINER AND ICE CLIMBERS ARE BACK AND THE TITLE WILL BE "SUPER SMASH BROS ULTIMATE" AND RIDLEY WILL COME AND HE SWALLOWED MEGA MAN AND MARIO AND SAMUS IS FIGHTING HIM HE LEFT CAPPY ALONE HOWEVER —Preceding unsigned comment added by Play Dash (talk • contribs) 12:51, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

This is improper usage of a talk page. In the future, please use the Forum for posts like this and remember to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 14:30, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Japanese title

For those unaware, the japanese title of the game is Dairantō Smash Brothers Special (大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL, Great Fray Smash Brothers Special)

Why is New Donk City on the stage list?

It hasn't been confirmed yet, so why is it there? 81.154.111.158 14:50, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

A picture of it is on Mario's character page, though the name is unconfirmed. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 23:43, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Saffron City

As said in my description of my edit, I have a link to a picture of Saffron City on Treehouse Live: https://imgur.com/a/Yi0rxB5 SugarCookie420 (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Character pages

Do you have a source on the unlockability of characters? Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 23:16, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Sakurai mentioned that the starting lineup matches the lineup of Smash 64 in the direct. The characters with an ambiguous status are the unlockable 64 characters. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 23:43, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Boxart

Perhaps the boxart can be added to the gallery? Hi-res version available here, sourced from Amazon: Data (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Create and link an Echo Fighters dedicated page to the text near Daisy

Since I can't help to edit the page as it is protected, I believe it would be interesting to link the Echo Fighters citation near Daisy into a completely new page which would explain this is the new canon name for clone characters and that Sakurai himself explained, both during directs and interviews, that this term will be used to discern between semiclones (which have at least a completely different move, be it Specials or normals). So, for instance, Dr. Mario does not classify as Echo because in the current installment, Mario's Down B is different from his. On the other hand, Dark Pit's moves and specials are still all the same from Pit aside parameter-level adjustments and artwork, so this makes him an Echo Fighter. Thanks to this logic, it is also safe to assume even from this early that Daisy will retain mostly all Peach's functionality, with some expected differences in either movement speed, strengh or special damage/knockback/windup.

Drezus (talk) 08:44, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Mute City?

I don't think Mute City has shown up in any screenshots/footage, why is it on the stage list? DynamicSparkSword (talk) 19:45, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Final Smashes

If no one has added this detail yet on the main page, when someone activates their final smash the game briefly flashes their portraits like the critical hits in Fire Emblem.

About Healing Field

I heard somewhere Healing Field is an ARMS-based item, but it looks completely different in Smash Bros, having a seed-like appearance rather than the sporty squeezy from ARMS. Can anyone confirm which game this item sources from? Is it from Xenoblade or Final Fantasy? Drezus (talk) 13:14, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

It's neither Xenoblade nor Final Fantasy, since their wikis don't have anything for "healing field". They also didn't have a series icon for it in the Direct, so we can't tell where it's from. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 13:16, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

Banana

I don't think I can edit the page myself, but banana is spelled incorrectly in the items. 75.141.57.33 14:02, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

Characters facing the screen

I think it is worth noting that they're making characters facing the screen even more. For instance, Mario and Villager now both face the screen while walking and running so players can have a grasp of their faces better. --ElCid (talk) 17:06, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

Final Destination

The E3 version of Final Destination is only for that demo. Should the current screenshot be removed or should it stay as a placeholder like how the stage itself is a placeholder?

Character grid order

I wonder if Ice Climbers could be shifted back in the character grid in order for all Fire Emblem characters to appear together on one line? I think the preceding lines look very good and orderly, with characters from each series all together on a single line. FE breaks that though... maybe it could be solved by shifting Ice Climbers to the first character position after the FE characters, instead of right before? Data (talk) 12:18, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

The Ice Climbers SHOULD be before the FE characters. It's like that on both the Melee and Brawl pages. --71.88.50.65 12:24, 16 June 2018 (EDT)

Splatoon 2 and Proteus Ridley

The article says that the Inkling uses concepts from Splatoon 2 and that Ridley will have Proteus Ridley as an alt. The inklings are Splatoon 1 only as no alts are from Splatoon 2 (and the splattershot's design is from Splatoon 1) and I don't believe we have a confirmation on Proteus Ridley. 98.116.134.108 14:15, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

What I believe to be the case (for the Inklings) is that, while the hairstyles are from the first game, several fashion elements come from the second game. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 14:17, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

Like what? All of the alts are from promotional artwork from Splatoon 1 98.116.134.108 14:52, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

...After looking, I shall rephrase my statement: the fashion elements are in both games. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 14:56, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

That should be fixed in the article, since no design from Smash was specifically from Splatoon 2. 98.116.134.108 15:01, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

I haven't seen anything suggesting Proteus Ridley is in the game. I think people either misinterpreted Meta Ridley in his reveal trailer, or heard from someone, who heard it from someone else, etc. I think it should be removed.Nintendo101 (talk) 20:18, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

I Know It's Similar, But...

Teching grabs requires you to have a window of time to be able to negate a throw attempt. Even with games like KOF where the window to tech is extremely small (maybe 1-2 frames), you still initiate the throw tech after the grab has already landed on you. This is not what's happening in Ultimate. Instead, grabs initiated at the same time clank like regular hitboxes would, provided their startup is the same. It's more of a hitbox interaction than a throw tech. If someone coming from traditional fighting games saw this and tried to throw tech like they would normally, they would fail immediately. Gold 17:56, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

Good catch. It seems more like a standard priority clank, but now with grabs. I'll just edit the point. Archrelico (talk) 18:17, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

Crawling as a buff?

Hello! I am new to the Smash Wiki although I always used it as a source of info. I was wondering if the addition of crawling to a character is technically a buff since I recall seeing it as a buff in a page before. For example, crawling can be used to keep movement while the possibility of avoiding projectiles especially for smaller characters. RaichuPichuKing (talk) 23:56, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

I would like to ask who specifically is able to crawl that wasn't able to before. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 23:58, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

Pichu? Nintendo101 (talk) 00:06, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

Yes Pichu is who I mean.

I would consider it a buff because it gives the character more movement options. For Pichu, I think crawling is already acknowledged as a buff on his Ultimate page. Nintendo101 (talk) 00:20, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

Four Unlockable Characters in SSB

Shouldn't Luigi, Ness, Captain Falcon, and Jigglypuff have "Starter" as an availability on their page? RaichuPichuKing (talk) 00:39, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

At the moment it is unknown whether the Original 8 or Original 12 will be available from the start, so I don't think it should be stated either way until confirmation. 75.141.57.33 21:31, 20 June 2018 (EDT)

Here's your confirmation. New evidence has arisen that proves that those four will be among Ultimate's starters. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 22:17, 20 June 2018 (EDT)

According to GameXplain, they're not sure if it includes the four unlockable characters or not. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 22:27, 20 June 2018 (EDT)

GameXplain aren't affiliated with the development of the game. Their thoughts and opinions are not factual or worthy of being mentioned here. 75.141.57.33 10:10, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

That screenshot comes from the direct immediately after a portion with only the Smash 64 starters and before a part where every other smash character portrait moves in. Supersmasher2020 (talk) 09:56, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

1-on-1 damage vs 3+ players damage

Multiple character pages (such as Mario) report changes to damage dealt by certain moves. However, it is not specified if the new amount of damage applies to 1-on-1 matches or multiplayer matches. There may even be inconsistencies about which amount is used across all character pages. So I'm wondering if documenting these changes in damage right now is appropriate, and if so, which amount of damage should be considered the "standard", 1-on-1 or multiplayer? Ponyshment (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

I think we treat the 1 v 1 damage as the new default, unless the 3+ damage matches up better with the old values. Still too early to tell. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

Since 3+ damage has the lowest value, it wouldn't be too farfetched to assume that 1v1 dmg. is automatically/manually balanced using 3+ dmg. as the base value than the other way around. It makes more logical sense, but that's just me. Nokii (talk) 21:27, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

All the evidence so far (observations, bugs, math) points to 1v1 fights having a 1.2x multiplier. This means it's not the base damage. Toomai Glittershine The Different 20:53, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

Sort of bumping this now. As it's been discussed, most evidence leads to 1v1 damage being a 1.2x multiplier to 3+ damage. Does that mean it's not too early for a damage template about it? It could get clutter-y once we add it to virtually every attack, but it's probably the easiest way around it. Also, it's probably best to use 1v1 as the base and 3+ as the hover text since I'm guessing that's what most people will search for first. Nokii (talk) 14:10, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

Final Destination

The Final Destination image should be removed, as they confirmed during the Treehouse that the Final Destination in the version at E3 was just the Omega form of Battlefield. Game & Watch (talk) 05:35, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

I think it's fine to leave there for now since it would look better than without a picture. Where did you hear that, by the way? I'm just curious cause it would definitely be a downer if this new Smash game had no unique Final Destination. Archrelico (talk) 05:36, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

The latest blog update about the Black Hole item features 2 new screenshots of Fox on an unknown stage which is very Final Destination-looking. Can we just assume we're looking at Final Destination or is it too early to tell? Ponyshment (talk) 09:17, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

For anything, especially pre-release stuff, it's much more acceptable to be factual about something (X is X) than to simply assume (X could be Y), especially on observation alone. Plus, the images shown aren't exactly descriptive enough of much besides Fox's viscinity. For all we know, it could be a new Star Fox stage. :P Nokii (talk) 09:50, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

I think Bill Trinen and Nate Bihldorff confirmed that it was a placeholder in their interview with GameXplain, although I might be mistaken. In any case, I think it is obvious that it is just a placeholder. Still, it should remain as the image for right now since they did use it for their image for FD at E3 after all. Master Zach (talk) 11:04, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

About the Smoke that Comes from Launched Fighters

I remember the Nintendo Treehouse folks and one of the announcers from the Invitational commenting that the smoke that trails a launched fighter is colored based on the player's color that launched them (I.E. If P2 launches P1, then P1 will leave a trail of blue smoke). I can't cite an exact source, but if you look at gameplay, you'll notice that that's the case. LOLDUDE (talk) 17:08, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

This has been the case since SSB4. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 17:15, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

68 Fighters?

Where it mentions there are 63 total fighters and 65 if you count the 3 different pokemon from pokemon trainer, should it also mention there are 68 if you count echo fighters? RaichuPichuKing (talk) 23:47, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

There are a total of 66 characters so far: Echo Fighters count separately and Pokemon Trainer counts as one character. If you do not include Echo Fighters and count each Pokemon individually there are 65 characters. Zefer (talk) 08:15, 20 June 2018 (EDT)

I think you're forgetting about the three different Mii Fighters, which also represent completely unique characters, or at least as much as Ivysaur, Squirtle, and Charizard do. Counting them individually bumps the number up to 68. Nintendo101 (talk) 21:46, 20 June 2018 (EDT)

Yeah that was the same thought process I had as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RaichuPichuKing (talk • contribs) 00:09, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

Don't forget to indent properly (use colons), as well as sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~) Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 00:15, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

New Donk City Stage Layout

There's a better look at the layout of the New Donk City stage in the background of Mario's profile on the website. Here's the image. I'd add it myself but I don't know how to. Supersmasher2020 (talk) 14:25, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Nice catch, but the problem is that the image is red. I don't think there's anything we can do with that. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 14:42, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

If you can find us a natural version of this image, then use Special:Upload to upload it. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 20:27, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Unfortunately, that's the only version that the website has. Still. some things can be discerned from it, like the fact that Pauline and The Super Mario Players (official name, not made up) aren't always present. Maybe just while Jump Up, Super Star is playing?Supersmasher2020 (talk) 00:16, 23 June 2018 (EDT)

Or it could be a touring stage. Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ 05:16, 23 June 2018 (EDT)

Or they added them to the stage background after they took this screenshot and finished the layout for the Ultimate site. Nintendo101 (talk) 06:20, 23 June 2018 (EDT)

New page for "Power Hit" effect?

I'm considering making a new page that specifically lists all the attacks that play the new dramatic "power hit effect" (where there's a blue overlay and the screen slows down). Would that be a good idea? Seeing how this effect does not play for just any attack in general (it seems locked to specifically game-changing attacks or moments like a shield break, and not just any normal fully charged smash attack), it seems useful to have a page with info on it. Archrelico (talk) 05:31, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

I don't think so, at least not yet. There's no real good name for it and we don't have any hard information aside from "sometimes plays for certain attacks". Maybe once the game's out and we can better figure exactly how it works, but even then it might be better suited as nothing more than a yes/no on hitbox pages (like the ability for hitboxes to only hit ground/air opponents). Toomai Glittershine The Brass 10:55, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

It has been dubbed Special zoom and Finish zoom by Sakurai. I suspected this before, but it's been confirmed only strong special moves seem to cause the blue slowdown effect. The red slowdown finisher seems to be triggered by any move. However... pretty sure I have seen it not occur when it should have (projectiles maybe? unsure). Of course, the opposite is confirmed to be true- that is, it can occur when the move does not actually kill (DI probably). Other quirks like effect without zoom can occur too. I think these effects should have their own article since it does not seem to be a hitbox property, it is more of an event with specific visuals, SFX, and properties. At the very least it needs more than a bullet point. RobSir zx 10:20, 11 July 2018 (EDT)

Splatoon 2

The Confirmed Elements part of the article is misleading and still hasn't been fixed. Not a single aspect from the Inklings is specifically from Splatoon 2, all of their alts are from promotional images. The only Splatoon 2 thing in SMash Ultimate is Lil Judd in the Moray Towers stage. 98.116.134.108 13:34, 26 June 2018 (EDT)

" 63 if the three different Pokémon of the Pokémon Trainer are treated as individual characters"

If we decide to say this, I think it's also relevant to say "65 if the three different Pokemon of the Pokemon Trainer and three different Mii Fighters are treated as individual characters." The Mii fighters play completely different and have different final smashes. 98.116.134.108 19:33, 30 June 2018 (EDT)

Stages that Still Need Images

Here are some spots to take images for the stages that still need images. First of all, Pilotwings appears in Captain Falcon's part of the "Everyone is Here" trailer. Second of all, Mario Circuit from Wii7U appears in Yoshi's video in the Super Smash Bros Ultimate website. Third of all, Corneria appears in Fox's video. Flat Zone 2/X appears at the beginning of the overview of Mr. Game and Watch in the official trailer, and the Pictochat stage appears when Sukapon is shown in the official trailer. And you might think that Yoshi's Island Brawl only appears in Yoshi's background on the website, but it also appears in the picture of the launch star item in the blog. Finally, you could use SSBUWebsitePacmanSeries.jpg for Pac-Land, but it might be too wide.
24.6.217.5 18:08, 4 July 2018 (PDT)

New Newcomers Speculations

How about Saki Amamiya. He has his ponytail, he was now playable in Super Smash Bros Ultimate instead of Assist Trophy. And what about Kachua from Sin and Punishment, she was playable too.

Pyra is the female Blade and make her playable. And her Final Smash, she can assists Rex to perform her finisher to strike down her opponents.
--Dharakjoo (talk) 09:30, 11 July 2018 (EDT)

The wiki isn't for speculation, we only report things that have actually been confirmed. AmoongussForLife Talk 09:42, 11 July 2018 (EDT)

SmashWiki is not speculative. VoqéoT 09:45, 11 July 2018 (EDT)

Oh okay.i sorry about it. --Dharakjoo (talk) 20:20, 11 July 2018 (EDT)

Jab lock

Hey all, what about the jab locking? GimR said in his video it's two hits now but you don't get forced to stand up is that correct? If yes then what even is jab lock? I thought the important thing about it was getting forced to regular get up. -- 5.145.128.4 13:14, 14 July 2018 (EDT)

Ahem. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 19:55, 14 July 2018 (EDT)

Thank you, didn't know it was also called lock and is mentioned like that in the article already. Great work :-) -- 5.145.128.4 13:44, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

HP Juice is a item

HP Juice from ARMS is a item in Smash Ultimate, please add it. Proof is in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT-DmdaLH_Q but you can't go back in the stream yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NickKrau (talk • contribs) 23:22, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

First off, sign your comments with 4 tildes (~~~~). Second, I'm pretty sure that's just the Healing Field, which we already have a page on. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 23:28, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

Demo at events

So Nintendo is really pushing the Ultimate demo out to a lot of events worldwide. There is a line under the development section, currently stating: The game would later be playable at certain tournaments and events including Rage 2018 Summer, Next Generation World Hobby Fair ’18 Summer, CEO 2018, and Jump Victory Carnival 2018. I think we should either get rid of the examples and simplify the sentence... or we should actually create a table with country locations and dates. Personally, I feel as though there will be plenty more events to come with the demo, and it could be a sizable list if 100% complete. RobSir zx 11:00, 18 July 2018 (EDT)

I say we make it as concise as possible. We don't want to have to change it numerous times. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 11:20, 18 July 2018 (EDT)

Banana Gun

The Banana Gun item is part of the wrong universe, should be Smash Bros, not Mario. --Moonboy65 (talk) 00:59, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

Done. Pokebub (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

Also the Rage mechanic has smoke effects on the percentage gauge, which was not there before. Should be added to the Aesthetic changes. --Moonboy65 (talk) 14:06, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

"Roster the size of the original N64 roster?"

So I hate to bring this up, but people keep saying not to give the 4 unlockable characters, Luigi, JP, CF, and Ness a status of unlockable or starter in ultimate until we know for sure, but we are not even sure about the status of all the other fighters either since the trailer did not specifically state which fighters are available from the start and just said a roster the size of the original N64 roster... RaichuPichuKing (talk) 16:23, 26 July 2018 (EDT)

The trailer did not, but Masahiro Sakurai clarified this in a Famitsu column you can access here. To quote: "I’ve decided to limit the number of fighters initially available to the original Nintendo 64 roster". Nintendo101 (talk) 17:07, 26 July 2018 (EDT)

Oh ok thanks! Although since Sakurai stated that the fighters are going to be the ones "initially available" to the original roster doesn't that mean that Luigi, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Ness should be stated as Unlockable? RaichuPichuKing (talk) 17:15, 26 July 2018 (EDT)

I think it is still too vague to say definitely whether "original Nintendo 64 roster" includes Luigi, Falcon, Ness, and Puff or not. Nintendo101 (talk) 17:19, 26 July 2018 (EDT)

Yeah I think it may still be vague too since the trailer included the other four anyways. Thanks. RaichuPichuKing (talk) 17:28, 26 July 2018 (EDT)

Number of veterans

Since Awesomelink didn't respond on his talk page, I figured I'd just open it up to the whole community to discuss. Then maybe we can finally stop changing this.

The page currently says that "[a]ll 61 characters (65 if counting the Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon and the three different types of Mii Fighters) from all previous Smash Bros. games return as playable characters." Previously, it has stated "63 characters (65 if counting the Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon)", keeping the three different types of Mii Fighters combined. I think we should change it back to this, as I said on Awesomelink's talk page:

"They share a page, but on the total count of fighters, they are counted separately (there's a total of 68 fighters; the count on the about page states that it counts Pokemon Trainer as one fighter, so subtract 2 = 66. No room for the Mii Fighters to be merged.) Furthermore, it doesn't really matter what the site does anyway, since the rest of SmashWiki counts them separately at all times."

Unlike the Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, the Mii Fighters are given fully individual boxes on both Smash 4 and this page. The official source considers them different enough to automatically be listed separately. There is zero reason for us to not automatically separate them on this page, too. TheNuttyOne 20:06, 3 August 2018 (EDT)

Ritcher and Simon are coming real-time!

THEY ARE COMFIRMED! Also Luigi got tonsa scared before returning to life —Preceding unsigned comment added by Play Dash (talk • contribs) 14:04, August 8, 2018 (EDT)

This is improper use of the Talk page (see SW:TALK). Also remember to sign your posts with 4 tildes (~~~~). — Nokii^ε (T·C·L) 10:21, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Also comfirmed are Chrom, another one AND K. ROOL!