Forum:Newcomers

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Everyone's thinking about what the next Smash game will be like. I'll bring up a new question: Who should join the fight as playable characters? In my opinion:

1. Lyn (from Fire Emblem)
2. Victini (from Pokemon)
3. Bowser Jr. (from Mario)

There could be more fighters, but I can't think of any more. Brawlingbrian LANDMASTER! 10:07, 24 December 2010 (EST)

- Anthony Higgs (from Metroid Other M)

- Grey Fox (from Meta Gear Solid)

- Another Sonic character (I don´t really care who is it)

And I think that Mewtwo should return. Zero (talk) 11:11, 24 December 2010 (EST)

I just realized. They should also add Prince Fluff (from Kirby's Epic Yarn). Brawlingbrian LANDMASTER! 08:34, 27 December 2010 (EST)

1. Krystal,Leon,and Panther(Star Fox)
2. Roy and Mewtwo should return with new movesets
3. Black Shadow(F-Zero)he should be similar to how ganondorf is now and ganondorf should get a moveset that involves his sword from Twilight Princess
4. Camus(Fire emblem Shadow Dragon)General Zelgius AKA The Black Knight,Micaiah(Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn)
5. King K.Rool(Donkey Kong Country)
6. Meowth(Pokemon)Pokemon Trainer should be removed and replaced by three new individual character Pokemon,Bulbasaur,Quilava,and Swampert,the first eveolution of the first of the trio in the original the second evolution of the second of the trio in the second beginer pokemon trio and the third evolution of the third in the trio of the third beginer pokemon trio
7. Teddy(Mother)Paula,Jeff,Poo(Earthbound)Kumatora,Duster,Masked Man(Mother 3)
8. Ice Climbers should be two individual characters,a single charcter(i dont care which one,Popo or Nana it makes no difference to me)or should just be removed period
9. Id like to see Sheik,Toon Link(Sheik was never important enough to even be in a smash game and one Link is enough)Snake,and Sonic go(no more 3rd party characters)i also wouldnt mind if Mr.Game & Watch,R.O.B,Olimar,and Jigglypuff went,theyre all pretty boring characters and their spot could be filled by much more interesting and likable characters
10. If there are going to be 3rd party characters then id like to see Sonic return but Snake go(he fits in with smash brothers and nintendo about as much as master chief does)and along with Sonic id like to see Geno from Mario RPG representing Square and Mega Man(the original) representing Capcom,theyre both not only more fitting for a smash game but much more deserving than SnakeGig (talk) 13:42, 27 December 2010 (EST)

One character I'd like to see in any new SSB game would be either Isaac or Matthew from the Golden Sun Series. Fuddlebob (talk) 05:08, 11 January 2011 (EST)

I think Gallade,Knuckles, and Poo all Pwn and deserve to be added! MagicGallade (talk)

i know i already suggested this in the Smash Bros. DS forum, but`how about a Pokemon Trainer with the Gen 5 Pokemon Oshawott, Janovy and Emboar? Or even better, those pokemon being independent?Rising Dragon (talk) 00:37, 20 February 2011 (EST)

Better idea: How about a Trainer with three Pokemon from different gens? Totodile, Grotle, and Blaziken/Emboar would be awesome. Really, I'd like to see all five gens represented as playable characters in the next smash game, which is made possible through the trainer. --Spenstar (talk) 16:49, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

Forum is old, but the Pokemon Trainer gimmick should just be gotten rid of all together. It's essentially useless, it has several drawbacks other characters don't have, as it forces one to main three different characters, can either force a switch or severely weaken your character in the most inopportune times, and all three pokemon of the Pokemon Trainer would be better as stand alone characters. I don't see why people would want the Pokemon Trainer to return, let alone adding another Pokemon Trainer. Imo, it's just a pointless gimmick at an attempt to create an unnecessary "unique" character. Separate the Pokemon and eliminate the trainer, that is what should be done. Omega Tyrant 16:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

I didn't say to add a second trainer, my suggestion was to replace the old one with a trainer that covers a wider range of generations. Even so, I do see your point, but it is possible to keep the trainer while making things generally batter for the Pokemon. Remove the stamina mechanic, and allow people playing as the Pokemon Trainer to not switch Pokemon when respawning by holding A or something. Then the Pokemon Trainer will become more like Zelda/Sheik, in that you can play as all the Pokemon, or you can only use one, and no mechanic will force you to do either. Besides, alone the Pokemon would be pretty bland characters. --Spenstar (talk) 17:18, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

I didn't necessarily implied you suggested adding a second trainer, though some comments I seen seemed to implied adding a second trainer. As for removing the stamina and force switching, then yes that would remove the detriments that makes the Pokemon Trainer such a poor gimmick. But then the only thing it adds to the characters is the ability to change the character midmatch, which is an ability that sounds more useful than it actually is. Only one of the pokemon could give you your best matchup in a given match, so what good does it do to switch from this pokemon to another, especially when the switch can not be done anytime without risk? By having them as a stand alone though, you could give them a proper down special, which would be very likely to help the character more than the ability to switch with another character.

As for the point that the Pokemon wouldn't be appealing stand alone characters, while true to a degree, that brings up another question. Why spend three character slots on these less desirable characters when you could instead use these slots on more important/popular characters that would have no problems standing as stand alone characters, such as Mewtwo? I'm certain more people would of wanted Mewtwo instead of any of the current Pokemon Trainer's pokemon, or even the entire Pokemon Trainer set, not to mention how much more significant Mewtwo is than the characters of the Pokemon Trainer. Omega Tyrant 17:42, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

It would only take one slot for the entire Pokemon Trainer, and the gimmick itself of having three Pokemon in one does have fans. The Pokemon were never meant to be stand-alone characters, but were meant to be part of the whole, and the whole is a viable character. That's why Zelda/Sheik not only has its own place on the tier list, but is higher than Zelda or Sheik individually. As for Mewtwo, I heard that there was a petition to keep him out of Brawl because he basically sucked in Melee. I'd love to see him in the next Smash Bros but he'd need a redesign and a huge buff, to be truly worthy of the title Mewtwo. Having said that, I'd rather see a 3rd/5th gen legendary in the next Smash Bros game, if only to provide playable representation from every Generation of Pokemon on the character selection screen.

As for simply using the Pokemon individually if there's no stamina, consider this: Squirtle, being lighter, is more effective at lower damage percents because he can't be comboed as easily, but is easily KOd at higher percents. Ivysaur and to a greater degree Charizard, by contrast, are less effective at lower percents but can be switched to when the damage gets high to avoid being KOed longer, and having more solid KO options. --Spenstar (talk) 18:03, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

Actually no, each Pokemon still has their own character slot in the game's data. Just because they may share a slot on the character select screen doesn't mean they use the same character slot. Basic hacking would show you that. And the time you spend designing each Pokemon could be spent on a character who was much more desirable.

And while this gimmick may have it fans, do those fans outnumber the ones who wanted Mewtwo or Roy back? Or those that wanted other characters in such as Ridley? Instead of designing each of the Pokemon Trainer's pokemon, you could have instead spent that time designing these three characters for Brawl, which I'm pretty sure majority would of preferred those three to having the Pokemon Trainer set.

And while Mewtwo may have been poorly designed in Melee, so was Kirby, who was brought back buffed, so Mewtwo could have been as well. Though I don't see the relevance that has here.

As for the Zelda/Sheik thing, true they have their own slot on the tier list together, but what is to say that if the trainer gimmick's faults were removed, they too would share that? One major difference is that the Zelda/Sheik transformation doesn't share the same risk that the pokemon switch does. And for a switch to be feasible, switching to another Pokemon would have to give you a greater advantage than you currently have assuming you're using the best pokemon for the matchup, and how often would that show up? If switching from Squirtle to live longer, you still have to make another switch after you get KO'd to get back to him, which in turn can lead to a free shot for the opponent and/or sacrificing a potential offensive opportunity. I intend to keep this brief, when comparing to Zelda/Sheik, switching is more difficult to do, and there is less practical opportunity to do so. Having a proper down special has a higher potential for benefit for them more than switching to another character would. The argument could be made for Zelda/Sheik as well. Omega Tyrant 18:28, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

How is Pokemon Change riskier? You're incorporeal for a brief amount of time and are then vulnerable for a few frames after the transformation. The risk is the same. Also, with switching after a KO, I said that a possible change would be the option to stay as your current Pokemon, so the option to switch would still be there. So if you wanted to you could die as Charizard and then respawn as Squirtle, no problem. Or you could respawn as Charizard, it's your choice. Another benefit to the PT without stamina is that you wouldn't have to have a secondary to beat counters to the PT if you main him because nobody can counter all three Pokemon. As for "more desireable" characters like Mewtwo and Roy, Roy was considered a clone of Marth. As much as I miss him, a new character gets priority over a clone. Mewtwo wasn't as popular anymore because Diamond/Pearl was the next big thing Pokemon wise. --Spenstar (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2011 (EDT)

Pokemon change is riskier as it leaves the pokemon more vulnerable after the switch more than the Zelda/Sheik transformation. They don't take the same amount of time. And unlike with Zelda/Sheik, you have to cycle through another character to get back to the original character you were using. As for secondaries, if the trainer was changed to how we said, then yes, you are still learning "secondaries" to avoid being countered. You're treating the pokemon of the trainer as the same character, they're not. So if you're learning Charizard and Ivysaur in addition to Squirtle, you're still learning other characters to the same amount that learning Luigi and Snake in addition to Squirtle would be. So the argument "with the Pokemon Trainer, you don't have to learn secondaries" is wrong. The statement that no character counters all the pokemon is faulty as well, as there are characters who hold a matchup advantage against all three. And my original argument was in relation to this, why would you switch out from the pokemon that gave you the best matchup during the match if you could stay as them? Such as, if you were facing King Dedede, why would you ever want to switch from Squirtle when he has by far the matchup out of the three against him? And in this matchup, what would help you more? Having Squirtle with a potentially useful down special to aid in the matchup, or changing to a character that radically changes the matchup in the opponent's favor?

As I said previously, the ability to change to another character midmatch is much better sounding that it actually is. There's a reason why Zelda/Sheik mainers rarely use the other character in the same match, or why you never see a Samus utilise the taunt trick to change to Zamus midmatch in a serious match.

As for Roy being a cloned, why couldn't he be decloned? Falco and Ganondorf got decloned to a degree, Roy could of been as well, which would again, I'm sure would be the more popular choice over an individual pokemon of the Pokemon Trainer. As for Mewtwo "not being as popular anymore because Diamond/Pearl was the next big thing Pokemon wise", I don't see the logic behind that. Even if for some reason the new generation made him less popular, it would of done so to the pokemon of the Pokemon Trainer, and Mewtwo would of kept his significance.

But regardless, with the Pokemon Trainer as is, you got a terrible gimmick that severely limits the characters involved in a way no other character is limited. And with the detriment of that gimmick removed, you're left with essentially three stand alone characters, whose character slot would be better filled by more deserving/popular characters. Omega Tyrant 20:29, 28 March 2011 (EDT)