Change default symbol from Special Stages to Other
So yesterday I edited this template to change the default symbol to the ellipsis from Ultimate. But I realized I may have jumped the gun, so after fixing the links to this template to make sure Melee's Battlefield has the appropriate symbol, I changed this template back to the Special Stages symbol to wait for consensus. But I think I should have let an admin undo my edit? Well, I'm not going to do a self-edit war. So, I'm going to just ask in the fourth talk page to have this discussion for permission. The Special Stages symbol have been our placeholder symbol for characters from a minor universe for years. And now that Super Smash Bros. Ultimate uses an ellipsis for both music and spirits from minor universes and the Other series symbol has been uploaded, should we change our default symbol to that? Battlefield was a Smash original stage that was never meant to represent any minor games so the usage of Battlefield's symbol for minor characters does feel odd to me. The three dots you see when you have a character in your spirit party like Spring Man should be the shape under his image on his article, not the shattered ball that was exclusive to Melee's Battlefield. And even for content pre-Ultimate, if it goes under "Other" series, it should have Ultimate's "Other" symbol because Battlefield is not an "Other" property and Geno had the mushroom symbol before he was categorized in the Mario series spirits. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2019 (EST)
- I agree. I don’t know how to change it, since the site’s internal code lists the special stages symbol as “other”. If anybody could change that file’s image, then renaming the current “symbol|other” as “symbol|specialstages”, then that would be great. 184.181.102.188 22:56, 14 January 2019 (EST)
- I agree，it's obvious.--Capstalker (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2019 (EST)
- I'm just waiting for an admin's permission. I can go ahead and change it if I'm that impatient, but I don't want my edits to be reverted or be given warnings. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2019 (EST)
- Okay, so I caved again and Miles reverted it. Why is the one used for a Smash original stage better suited than the ellipsis? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:59, 20 January 2019 (EST)
- For two main reasons:
- An ellipsis doesn't even remotely resemble the style of the other series symbols, and as such isn't even immediately recognizable as being one or having any particular meaning.
- It's not even used in the context you're using it for, as it's used for Ultimate's sound test even for songs that are part of established character/stage universes with symbols such as Ice Climber, Duck Hunt, etc. It's not used for miscellaneous spirits, either.
- The Melee Battlefield logo isn't a 100% perfect fit for this usage but the ellipsis is a much much worse choice, by my judgment. Miles (talk) 19:25, 20 January 2019 (EST)
- Actually it is used for miscellaneous spirits. While it is absent when you check the Spirit inventory, many users have pointed out that it is seen when you put an "other series" character as your primary spirit in World of Light. I have checked myself with Shantae, Spring Man and Prince of Sablé and it is indeed true. When you put Shantae in your party, you should see a green translucent ellipsis where her series symbol should be. And that's only in World of Light and Spirit Board. When you go to Team Setup in Collection, the ellipsis symbol is not there. But if you save the team and use it for World of Light and Spirit Board, it is there. The ellipsis is used for Spirits if you know where to look. Don't believe me? Turn on your Switch, go to World of Light, and put a Primary Spirit in your party that doesn't have a symbol. You'll see the dots there where the series symbol should be. Duck Hunt and Ice Climber have the ellipsis in the music section because they don't have enough songs for their own tracks and had to be grouped in the Other track that mostly uses songs from unrepped games. Besides, if you think this symbol was exclusive to music, then why did Toomai upload this symbol and not the "All" symbol or that musical note? Because it was used for Primary Spirits in World of Light and Spirit Board. For some reason, it's missing from the Collection menu. And even if you don't like the ellipsis, whether it's too small or something, if the game actually used it for miscellaneous stuff, then it's more appropriate then the one used for a Smash original stage. Whether you like the ellipsis or not, it's your opinion. I personally like the FOXHOUND logo more than the exclamation mark, but we still gotta use the exclamation for Metal Gear stuff. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- I uploaded the symbol because it is used as a symbol for something in the game (unlike the non-symbol-text "All" or the website-exclusive eigth note). That doesn't automatically mean we plan to use it (or have to use it) for differing purposes.
- The Metal Gear symbol changing isn't really a valid comparison; we still use it in Brawl places.
- I very much agree with Miles's point 1. The three dots do not look like a symbol if used in a location where other symbols aren't present for context. Say what you will about the special stages symbol, but it quickly gets across the point of "this isn't something that fits anywhere else" without looking too different from other symbols.
- I would much rather create a wiki-original symbol than use SSBU's "other" for previous games. Simply put I don't like backporting symbols to previous games, and the current setup only does that for a few things in SSB64. Toomai Glittershine
The Ghostbuster 06:55, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- I don't understand, why use "special stage" symbol to represent the minor universes if actual game use "other" symbol? If we shouldn't use "other" symbol in games without it, also shouldn't use "special stage" symbol, should just blank, and the spirits already includes most of the minor universes of previous games. ok, let's vote on it.--Capstalker (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- Actually it is used for miscellaneous spirits. While it is absent when you check the Spirit inventory, many users have pointed out that it is seen when you put an "other series" character as your primary spirit in World of Light. I have checked myself with Shantae, Spring Man and Prince of Sablé and it is indeed true. When you put Shantae in your party, you should see a green translucent ellipsis where her series symbol should be. And that's only in World of Light and Spirit Board. When you go to Team Setup in Collection, the ellipsis symbol is not there. But if you save the team and use it for World of Light and Spirit Board, it is there. The ellipsis is used for Spirits if you know where to look. Don't believe me? Turn on your Switch, go to World of Light, and put a Primary Spirit in your party that doesn't have a symbol. You'll see the dots there where the series symbol should be. Duck Hunt and Ice Climber have the ellipsis in the music section because they don't have enough songs for their own tracks and had to be grouped in the Other track that mostly uses songs from unrepped games. Besides, if you think this symbol was exclusive to music, then why did Toomai upload this symbol and not the "All" symbol or that musical note? Because it was used for Primary Spirits in World of Light and Spirit Board. For some reason, it's missing from the Collection menu. And even if you don't like the ellipsis, whether it's too small or something, if the game actually used it for miscellaneous stuff, then it's more appropriate then the one used for a Smash original stage. Whether you like the ellipsis or not, it's your opinion. I personally like the FOXHOUND logo more than the exclamation mark, but we still gotta use the exclamation for Metal Gear stuff. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- For two main reasons:
- Okay, so I caved again and Miles reverted it. Why is the one used for a Smash original stage better suited than the ellipsis? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:59, 20 January 2019 (EST)
- I'm just waiting for an admin's permission. I can go ahead and change it if I'm that impatient, but I don't want my edits to be reverted or be given warnings. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2019 (EST)
- Capstalker has a point. Why should we use the Special Stages symbol if it was only used by Melee's Battlefield when we were given the ellipsis for the minor universes? And what is the special stages symbol depicting exactly? A shattered ball? Pizza? A reticle? A fan? I've got no clue. It sure doesn't fit with any of the minor universes like ARMS or Golden Sun. But the ellipsis works because it's a commonly used symbol for waiting and all those series are waiting to get their own symbol. So I find the ellipsis much better than Battlefield's abstact shape. It might seem too small, but that's the point. These series don't have a symbol to represent them, so a hard-to-see symbol can show show that. I think you've gotten too used to the Battlefield symbol. There are probably new readers looking at that symbol and wondering where it came from. And it turns out that the symbol we're using for the minor universes came from a stage that should have used the original Smash symbol. Using Battlefield's symbol is us calling Battlefield Melee a property of a minor universe. We have to take the ellipsis. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:40, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- While it's never outright "confirmed", it's pretty clear that the Melee Battlefield symbol is representative of parts coming together to a whole, which well suits the miscellaneous components that are otherwise not assigned a symbol but are still part of the "whole" of Smash. And as we've pointed out, an ellipsis isn't even recognizable as a series symbol stand-in in the first place. Using the Special Stage symbol is also a good compromise between the two more common ways in which Smash has previously identified miscellaneous stuff: with no symbol at all (as seen in most menus other than the Ultimate sound test), or with the Smash logo itself (especially in Brawl); using a symbol associated with Smash but not the main Smash logo which is used for Smash-original properties seems like a good way of communicating the idea. (Tangentially, I think insisting that "we have to" do it a certain way is a pretty flimsy basis for your case.) Miles (talk) 18:46, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- Do we even need a series symbol where there isn't one? Why can't the Special Stages symbol be exclusive to Melee Battlefield? You really do not like the ellipsis? What would we do if Joker comes out and you don't accept the new Persona symbol? When the ellipsis is used for both music and spirits of the "Other" category, I think we should use the ellipsis for articles of the "Other" category, especially certain characters who have been Primary Spirits in Ultimate like Takamaru, Sukapon, Prince of Sablé, Ray MK III, Saki Amamiya, Isaac, Starfy, Chibi-Robo, Barbara the Bat, Dr. Kawashima, Shovel Knight, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Bomberman and Akira who have all used the ellipsis symbol with their spirits and never used the Battlefield symbol or any other series symbol. If I thought the FF symbol looked bad, should I ask you to change it? No, because Smash 4 and Ultimate had used it for Cloud, Midgar and everything to do with Final Fantasy. We finally get a symbol for miscellaneous music and Spirits that's not a music note or a Spirits logo and you insist on putting the Battlefield Melee logo on pages that shouldn't have it? SeanWheeler (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- As Toomai made clear, "The three dots do not look like a symbol if used in a location where other symbols aren't present for context. Say what you will about the special stages symbol, but it quickly gets across the point of "this isn't something that fits anywhere else" without looking too different from other symbols." I'm not suggesting overriding a symbol that's based on anything like the Final Fantasy FF, so please don't sidetrack the discussion like that. The ellipsis does a terrible job of denoting "miscellaneous" because it's not comprehensible as a symbol like the actual series have, and so the idea of using it in that role is undesirable, by my judgment. Toomai and I have raised serious concerns with this approach and I want you to understand that it's not nearly as simple as you're making it out to be. Miles (talk) 20:44, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- Do we even need a series symbol where there isn't one? Why can't the Special Stages symbol be exclusive to Melee Battlefield? You really do not like the ellipsis? What would we do if Joker comes out and you don't accept the new Persona symbol? When the ellipsis is used for both music and spirits of the "Other" category, I think we should use the ellipsis for articles of the "Other" category, especially certain characters who have been Primary Spirits in Ultimate like Takamaru, Sukapon, Prince of Sablé, Ray MK III, Saki Amamiya, Isaac, Starfy, Chibi-Robo, Barbara the Bat, Dr. Kawashima, Shovel Knight, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Bomberman and Akira who have all used the ellipsis symbol with their spirits and never used the Battlefield symbol or any other series symbol. If I thought the FF symbol looked bad, should I ask you to change it? No, because Smash 4 and Ultimate had used it for Cloud, Midgar and everything to do with Final Fantasy. We finally get a symbol for miscellaneous music and Spirits that's not a music note or a Spirits logo and you insist on putting the Battlefield Melee logo on pages that shouldn't have it? SeanWheeler (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- While it's never outright "confirmed", it's pretty clear that the Melee Battlefield symbol is representative of parts coming together to a whole, which well suits the miscellaneous components that are otherwise not assigned a symbol but are still part of the "whole" of Smash. And as we've pointed out, an ellipsis isn't even recognizable as a series symbol stand-in in the first place. Using the Special Stage symbol is also a good compromise between the two more common ways in which Smash has previously identified miscellaneous stuff: with no symbol at all (as seen in most menus other than the Ultimate sound test), or with the Smash logo itself (especially in Brawl); using a symbol associated with Smash but not the main Smash logo which is used for Smash-original properties seems like a good way of communicating the idea. (Tangentially, I think insisting that "we have to" do it a certain way is a pretty flimsy basis for your case.) Miles (talk) 18:46, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- The ellipsis looks totally fine in my opinion. So what if it looks different from the other symbols? All symbols are different. We've got a W, and exclamation mark, a Poké Ball, a Triforce, a sword, a boxing glove, Sonic's head, the letters DK, a mushroom, an egg, the letters SF, the letters FF, some kind of moon symbol with a circle in it, a paw print, a house, a fox, etc. I think an ellipsis would fit right in. And no, I won't be confused with ellipsis in the regular text. When it's placed where the series symbol should be and it's the same grey color, it shouldn't be that confusing. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:34, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- Given that it could easily be confused for bullet points or periods and that grey on a white background does little to distinguish it as a symbol as opposed to text, I vehemently disagree. Miles (talk) 23:48, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- Three bullet points on the same line? No, I don't think so. We've got a W for Wario, FF for Final Fantasy and an exclamation mark for Metal Gear. Can you tell me about a page where a series symbol could blend in with the text? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2019 (EST)
- I’m going to have to agree with Sean here. Unless somebody is completely blind, few will realistically going to think the ellipsis is three random periods. It’s actually more likely for somebody to go “what the heck is that” with the special stages symbol than the ellipsis. I vehemently believe we should have the ellipsis. 184.181.102.188 02:05, 22 January 2019 (EST)
- Given that it could easily be confused for bullet points or periods and that grey on a white background does little to distinguish it as a symbol as opposed to text, I vehemently disagree. Miles (talk) 23:48, 21 January 2019 (EST)
- I agree，it's obvious.--Capstalker (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2019 (EST)