Smasher talk:Charliedaking

Win on ZeRo

Okay actually how to count this? I fully agree that this is not the same as if he had won in, say, a PGR-ranked tour, or against his Diddy. But weeklies in themselves are tournaments, and ZeRo's losses at them have counted in the past (ANTi @ WNF), and his secondaries are still in front of ZeRo, and his losses with them have counted in the past (ANTi @ Gren Saga, Tsu/Fatality at their tournaments). His Lucina especially is a legitimate secondary with wins on Ally and all that. Personally I think any tournament set is worth noting the same as the others. If we're to say otherwise we have to draw a concise line on what is notable, which we have not done. Due to this I'd like to have his win listed as of now, but how do we go about this in the future? Pespeon (talk) 01:20, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

A case-by-case basis can be made. ZeRo hasn't even used Lucina in tournament ever since SNS3, which was over a month ago. ZeRo also used Diddy in all of those sets you mentioned along with his secondaries. He literally said on Twitter that he was going to practice his secondaries this tournament. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 01:25, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

No I understand the nature of his secondaries and that Charlie didn't defeat "optimal ZeRo," per se. But as far as I know, our only distinction this far forth are tournament wins against ZeRo, which he achieved. To clarify: I don't believe this set counts the same as most others vs. ZeRo, but I also don't believe we have the precedent set to make the distinction. Not sure that case-by-case is applicable with something as subjective as this. Pespeon (talk) 01:28, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

Every set that ZeRo has lost before were sets that he was definitely trying to win, regardless of his use of secondaries, not to mention that outside of WNF, all of those sets happened at regionals/majors. This was definitely not the case here. It's a "win", sure, but it's certainly not on Anti's WNF level win.

Keep in mind that in Melee, stuff like Armada losing to Trif with his YL at Heir II the Throne and Leffen losing with his Mewtwo/Yoshi/Falco at Heir 2/Heir 3 are excluded from the rankings, so "subjectivity" is hardly a new thing. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 01:34, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

Sorry, I'm probably not making it clear. I don't care about this set specifically or whether we count it or don't, I'm more interested in thinking of a way to definitively separate what counts and what doesn't (I'm in favor of it counting specifically cause we don't have a way rn, if we did I'd be fully with you). "He was(n't) trying to win" isn't exactly quantifiable. You could argue the same thing about he and Tweek's set at KTAR XX, since they were laughing and likely would have enjoyed it and been relatively content no matter which way it had gone. We don't discount whether or not he was "trying to win" there. (Note - I am in no way saying that you'd discount Tweek's set by the same merit. I'm trying to show that the way the line blurs would technically allow someone to.)

As opposed to that, would it be reasonable to discount weekly tournaments, say, the same way the PGR does (effectively nullifying the issues w this)? ANTi would still have gotten his win on ZeRo anyway, and if he's the only weekly loss ZeRo has, it would mean we wouldn't have to change anything we've already said. Pespeon (talk) 01:47, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

I wouldn't say the same thing about KTAR XX because it was a B-tier event on the PGR, plus they both used mains (Tweek is basically a Cloud/DK co-main).

Also, the tournaments I mentioned that Armada/Leffen "sandbagged" at weren't even weeklies and their losses were discounted anyway. Mango's losses at Frame Perfect Series 2 will also be discounted for the same reasons. I don't think discounting weeklies as a whole will necessarily solve anything.

Anyway, I think the core problem is actually the fact that every win that someone new gets on ZeRo is numbered and I'd like to stop this practice entirely. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 01:57, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

That last part I agree with. It was notable for the first while, so I wouldn't remove anyone like Vinnie, ConCon, Nairo, Ally, M2K, etc.... but now that it's become a "regular" occurrence, the number really is going to go up and up until someone says that's enough. As cool as it is, listing ZeRo at the front of anyone's notable wins is more than enough to say "hey, this guy beat ZeRo." Maybe instead, we have a have a page or even a linked userpage that lists them instead of making it an official thing? I'd make the sub-userpage for it. (Also, watching Locus's Gren/Fox/Falcon, Kameme's Falcon, KEN's Cloud, etc is just too fun for me to want to argue this too much more.)

Question is... who do we talk to about THIS entire thing lol Pespeon (talk) 02:02, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

Omega Tyrant is definitely the most knowledgeable admin in regards to the competitive scene, so I'd like to hear his input, if possible.

(At least someone who beat ZeRo in the past beat ZeRo in Losers, so we can avoid another debacle like this, haha.) PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 02:12, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

"He beat zero" at msm turned into a meme. I think we should put it on? He didn't even use Fox and its not like zero intended to lose. NewSmashGod (talk) 14:26, 8 August 2017 (EDT)

How widespread is it? We generally don't cover memes unless it's extremely widespread. Disaster Flare (talk) 14:29, 8 August 2017 (EDT)

not putting it on for memes sake just as a note. Zeros lucina is legit and so is Charlie's Sheik. NewSmashGod (talk) 04:04, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

A picture

can someone add a picture I don't know how NewSmashGod (talk) 04:21, 11 September 2017 (EDT)