Forum:Banned Stages
Rumble Falls should be banned since it is almost identical to Icicle Mountain, 75m should be banned due to the ledges that cannot be ducked through, New Pork City should also be b& due to Temple like hugeness and under story, The micro games in WarioWare are fun for causal play but really break the action in competition, Mario Bros. shouldn't even really be considered a smash bros stage let alone Tourney legal Knifeblade 00:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
you're right. besides, the mario bros stage actually makes items! PeetzaLink 19:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- Pictochat could be considered fair or unfair. It's kind of like Pokemon Stadium in the way that it changes.
- The Pirate Ship would be fine, if it wasn't for the cannon fire from the other pirates.
- The Bridge of Eldin is a walk-off stage. The bomb that King Bulbin lays, and the giant hole in the stage after it explodes could also be factors.
- Flat Zone 2 is just like Flat Zone 1 --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 20:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not completely sure yet, but I worry that Mario Circuit will just produce excessive camping, much like Great Bay did in Melee. Also, Spear Pillar is just way to crazy with the random crap that can happen and Mushroomy Kingdom is just Rumble Falls going side to side. Clarinet Hawk 06:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I vote no banning. Thanos6 17:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I vote no banning too. Some people might be better on moving stages. Its unfair on them if they are removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.131.108 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
No that's dum.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.77.96 (talk • contribs) 02:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Some stages should be banned due to their inherently chaotic nature. The goal of a tournament is to reward the best player(s) for their skill, not reward the guy who got lucky on on Summit because the fish ate his opponent three times in a row. Whether the stage moves is only a single factor in considering banishment. It can be good, because moving stages require the players adapt constantly, thus, a display of skill. That kind of stage is good. Take then, a stage like Pictochat were practically unpredictable events can tip the balance in a closely contested game. That is bad, because the stage decides the victor, which is a result not derived by skill, which, by extension, is impairing of the goal. For whatever reason, the stages in brawl appear to be far more sympathetic to the random rather than the calculated, so a large number of stages must be banned, including Spear Pillar, Mushroomy Kingdom, 75m, Flat Zone 2, Mario Bros., New Pork City, PictoChat, Rumble Falls, and WarioWare, to name a few and excluding the returning Melee stages. It may be necessary to develop standard stages via the stage editor and require their transmission to all participants in a ladder or tournament, much like is done with other stage/map driven e-sports like Starcraft. Additionally, balance must be considered. Certain stages favor certain movesets and thereby characters. Fox v Marth in Melee on Final Destination, for example, strongly favors Fox because his moves complement flat, long stages. Battlefield, probably the most balanced stage in the game, still favors Marth because of it keeps its players air-born. This usually won't decide a match, but in a close game, it can make the difference. This is the reason Great Bay was banned, because of its disposition toward game-breaking camping, which strongly favored the movesets of characters with whom camping is natural. To keep the game competitive is why stages are banned, and to eliminate wildly unfair advantages or silly random events.Semicolon 03:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I vote for no Banning to, its SUPER SMASH BROS not Street Fighter and nothing is fair anymore. Dark Overlord 04:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The whole POINT of Smash Bros. is to be pure chaos. You aren't supposed to follow the same rigid strategies like in other fighting games, you're supposed to be able to adapt on the fly to whatever happens. Thanos6 04:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Pure chaos is for casual games. For tournaments and serious games, where the object is to determine the better player, the stage needs to be controlled.Semicolon 05:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm with my crewmate (semicolon) on this; tournaments can't be decide on randomness. Trust me, our crew loves to play crazy games with the smash balls turned on high ("The Octopus and the Motorcycle", anyone?), but when we play in serious matches, we don't want some random crap messing things up. Again, I'm only talking high level ranked play here. When you play for fun, do just that: have fun. If you don't find the competitive side of Smash Bros. enjoyable, you're in the majority. But for those of us who enjoy occasionally seeing who really is the best, we need some kind of measuring stick to prevent the "best" from just being the luckiest. Clarinet Hawk 05:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I have played in tournaments, actually. Did just a week ago or so at a local college. I made it to the second round with items turned off but there was no fun in it, no wonderful mad chaos. Thank God they at least let all stages (save for Custom) be up for grabs. And I still say that going with the chaos and turning it to your advantage is a skill in itself, not luck. Thanos6 06:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- A controlled stage(Final Destination, Smashville, etc.) determines only that you are good as a light post but no good under pressure or at different situations (Pictochat, WarioWare, etc.). I don't see anything random (unless its Spear Pillar)crap from most stages. You must adapt to the changes on the battlefield, if you stay like a sitting duck or won't change, you are as good as dead. Some stages that I think need the "axed" are:
- Final Destination: The stage is smaller and no other platform is present.Turtling characters are perfect and almost untouchable if the routine is executed perfectly(a la Arcana Heart's combos, try to get unstuck from those...), and fights can take even 10 min if both players are shield dodging. The fight tends to goes to the first one who gets the opportunity to juggle since no other platform is present to help you. I called this stage the Noob Pratice Stage since its the perfect to practice with any character.
- New Pork City: Too big and awful in Point Matches. The target tends to run away when the odds are in his favor.In this lineup also falls Temple and 75m.
- Rumble Falls: Heavy characters can't move at the same pace as the stage. Try going up all the way with Ganondorf.
- Skyworld: Same problem as in the Zelda stage, the Harbor in Melee.
- Flatzone 2: Stage is too little.
- Hanenbow: The battle goes to the "platformers":Mario,Pit,Metaknight,etc. Too much jumping around.
- Mario Bros.:The stage's items can smash players way too early, at 25-30%, a shell can have a very devastating knockout...just watch how the CPU plays. Maybe a laugh when playing Point Matches, in a 3 min fight you can rack up to 10 pts if the other players aren't using them.
- Spear Pillar: A pokémon that will change the stage can stay there up to 3 minutes. Slow, Confusion(controls), gravity, boomerang attack, lasers,etc, using this for an early elimination in Stock Matches. Very good at Point Matches since the stage isn't too big and the pokemons can be used to your advantage to rack some lost pts or to steal them from someone.
Basically I have this stages removed from the random lineup. I have the custom stages turned on, some of those stages are great, I mean classic stages from the past like the Mushroom Kingdom stage from N64.--CyberDarkEdge 12:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC) I vote no banning, this is Smash Bros. if I want "legal" rules, then I do a Street Fighter tornament, because Smash Bros. "legal" tournaments are really boring and limited. You're thinking about the best, but this is a multiplayer, this isn't for win or lose, this is for haqve fun and see how are your skills, and if you want dominate the Smash World, you have to dominate all the stages --Jigglypuff is God 13:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Subjective opinion about what is 'fun' and what isn't does not constitute tournament policy. If you don't think it's fun, don't play in other peoples' tournaments. For the other part, some stages have challenges that require adaptation, and thus those should be retained, but a large number of stages have properties that affect gameplay and are either unpredictable, deadly, or otherwise extremely detrimental to competitive play. In addition, there seems to be some confusion here about the exact meaning of 'ban'. The proposed bans are not on your casual play, so anecdotal opinions about casual play are irrelevant for this discussion. The proposed bans are in respect to high level serious tournament play. In some of the stages, it is possible to be the dominate player in every aspect of the game and still lose because of the stage. I've seen it happen many, many times, and it has absolutely nothing to do with skill level. This is what is avoided by banning stages.Semicolon 15:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
NO BANNING!!! omg... a tournament is to decide who is the best player of the game from all the participants, right? alright well lets say someone is playing samus against a team of mario and sonic on the temple stage which has alot of controversy over banning. mario picks up a bob-omb and sonic picks up a super scope, sonic charges the super scope and fires at the same time mario jumps above samus and throws the bob-omb downward, so it looks like this
- =bob-omb -- or |=floor or wall 0=fully charged super scope shot
======================================
mario
samus 0 sonic
======================================
now if samus were able to wall jump off the stand next to her and hit mario in some way and then use one of her long range attacks to still hit sonic does that not make that player a good player? or if she had dodged both of those and then sonic had thrown the super scope itself at her, hitting her, giving mario a chance to take her out, doesnt that make them good players too? use of items and stage elements can be what proves how good of a player you are not just what combos you can manage to pull off on a totally flat stage with no items.i am completely against banning... anything... whether it be stages items and ESPECIALLY CHARACTERS!!! WTF IS THAT?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.227.25.86 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It's true on how hazards can become a problem, but think, a player who can attack and has good skill is fighting a character who is exceptional at dodging said hazards (tactics). Now, whenever the stage changes, it almost always turns out to be a bad thing for the first player, now, who would win? The second player, as the hazards would prove that the first player only has one tactic, beat them to the ground at all times. Now it's also true on how large stages can be a problem when the winning player is running, trying to wait until the time expires. So I really don't like that, but again tactics, think, a stage like temple might be bad, but a stage like New Pork town has the Ultimate Chimera, so if they are evading you, and they are where the Ultimate Chimera would be, they must think now. That Chimera is blocking their path, so now, you can get them, so think, a large stage like Temple has no hazards to make them change their tactics, but New Pork City does, plus one occasional moving platform (the limo seen near the bottom of the stage and in the background). 75M has more hazards, and is smaller, so you must constatly change tactics. The Summit has the fish, but some new strageties, one, jump at the right time, two, learn how not to stumble, and three, learn to use the extra platforms. I'll add more points later. Learner4 23:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
