Talk:Marth (SSBM)
Tier Ranking
Thanks for correcting my edit, MaskedMarth. I should have checked more character pages for the correct format. I changed it from Marth being in a tier named "Marth" which was a little ridiculous.
- Well, "2" is a lot closer to "4" than "Marth," so you caught the bigger error ^_^ --MaskedMarth 17:16, December 13, 2006 (GMT)
Lol, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ken yet [on the marth page] . I added some strategies [thank you to whoever started the heading]. I was wondering if anyone could find some youtube links of a Ken combo? I'd be willing to add this as a strategy, but not before any video reference has been made.
I am also concerned with the "cons" list. I don't think Marth has bad close-range game...
He has grab. He has utilt. He has dtilt, which often combos into other dtilt. He has grab.
--Firexemblemxpryde 23:39, March 14, 2007 (GMT)
- Feel free to change it. I think I added that con a long time ago, and my knowledge about Marth (especially from a long time ago) is certainly not definitive. – MaskedMarth (t c) 02:47, March 15, 2007 (GMT)
Heading Order
It's cool how someone added the HRC strategies to the page, but I think it might be better if the "Pros and Cons" remained at either the top, or at the bottom. I think ending on an HRC strategy might best be avoided most competitive smashers [that I know] aren't as into the HRC as they are for 1v1. The same can be said about a beginner player who wants to learn a little more about this 'marth' fellow.
- I'm not so sure we should keep the HRC strategies to begin with. SmashWiki is an encyclopedia, not a guide; so if we include anything about Stadium, it should be documenting his record scores, not providing novice strategies. – MaskedMarth (t c) 14:43, March 22, 2007 (GMT)
You're right, I am not so sure that should be the case either. And to avoid "smasher bias", maybe the pros/cons should be above "strategies". I'm not sure, but I want to consider whether "smashwiki" is aimed at completely new players, or for the more vigorous players who want to get ahead in the game? Smashwiki is heavily advertised in SWF, where else is it advertised? How do people find the site? I ask these questions because if most of the traffic is coming from smashboards, then it makes more sense to make these pages more complex, more in depth. The smash community is generally quite willing to learn, are they not? Most people have read the major sticky in SWF, relating what a "dair, lcancel, shffl" etc are. If we limit information such that anyone can read it, are we not missing out on giving smashwiki a slight edge from other smash-related sites? Just a few comments...
I notice there are no character match-ups on Marth either... although this might open up a can of worms.
Is it fair to agree that Fox and Sheik are both widely used to counterpick Marth? Link has a slight advantage?
Is it fair to agree that Marth is often used to counterpick Peach, Samus, and several low-tier characters? Falco and Marth are somewhat even? Captain Falcon and Marth are somewhat even?
Pros and Cons
Wow, so someone has contributed quite a bit to the pros and cons. Unfortunately these additions appear to be very opinionated and spiteful. It's almost as if someone is complaining about Marth being too good? Um, I somewhat want to erase it, and I somewhat want to argue against it. But it's unprofessional to simply put things in brackets in CAPITAL LETTERS and say something is wrong, so let's discuss it here, where we're supposed to.
Marth doesn't have the greatest ["best"] grab in the game. Some people prefer being able to run up to someone and grabbing them quick, and some prefer to combo into grabs [bair grab with link for example]. Let's talk about grab range. Welcome to Samus, Link, and Young Link. Then Marth.
"SHFFL" or "shfllc" is preferred instead of 'sffl'.
His tilts are the best in the game? I think not! That's again, subjective. Many, many people will tell you Sheik's are the best tilts in the game. I'm not so sure whether it's wise to make a judgement like this.
Now onto the cons...
"poor close-up game due to his lack of fast ground attacks. this is somewhat countered by his large grab range, however. [BEST GRAB IN THE GAME SO WRONG]".
xx> Ummm... I don't think we need to be redundant in saying that his grab game helps him out a bit in this area... and saying someone is wrong and justifying it with 1 biased 'support sentence' isn't going to help out this marth page. Keep in mind that other characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, Ganondorf, Peach, etc have attacks that are really QUITE effective in driving back opponents inside their bubble. Marth's ground attacks have a slower comeout time.
"Predictable recovery, lots of lag after his Dolphin Slash (up+b)(EVEN THOUGH HIS SIDE B IS A GREAT MIND GAME SO WRONG)"
xx> His side+b is a great mindgame? Really? Especially when he's recovering? I always thought that most marths recover... somewhat in the same way. They use his Side B to gain horizontal movement, while allowing himself to fall, and then use Dolphin Slash to gain tremendous vertical movement. Please. If you're a marth player, you've not yet been hit by enough of Sheik's needles while recovering to understand that Marth's recovery is predictable.
He definitely has lots of lag after his Up+B... that's why M2K's light shield edgeguard thing works... this isn't up for debate.
"No projectile, meaning camping (other than dash-dancing camping) is nonexistent. As well, he will often be forced to make the approach.(EVEN THOUGH HE HAS A GREAT APPROACH)"
xx> I doubt we're discussing whether he has a great approach. By saying he has no projectiles, we are now talking about 'camping', and marth has limited 'camping' capabilities. An example of one he DOES have is mentioned. It is NOT fun to make the approach, because the opponent can remain on the offensive and get you shieldgrabbed, hit with random projectiles, or even just prepare themself for the next hit. How glorious it would be if Marth could spam turnips or lasers and then use his spacing ONLy when someone comes to him. Sadly, that is not the case, so yes, marth is limited.
It's not nice to always be the one to make the approach. This is true in smash, and in real life. If we are to add to this site, then let it be something USEFUL and PRODUCTIVE instead of spiteful comments and erroneous judgment of a situation.
"Can be (arguably) counterpicked by Sheik and Fox(LOL HE PWNS FOX WITH CHAIN GRAB AND SHEIK IS EASY TO EDGE GUARD SO WRONG AGAIN)"
xx> Notice the word "arguably". Pointing out that Marth can chaingrab fox for a while and that Marth can edgeguard sheik is not going to mean that they don't counter him.
FOX: - Chaingrabbing is often limited to a [part of a] stage where no platforms are above you. Note also that chaingrabbing works for only a limited percent. Note also that Fox can often shine out of the chaingrab at low percents, say 20% and 10%. Note ALSO that with proper DI, you should just about always be able to escape at 30%. It would help to consult Mr. PC Chris and Mew2King for advice on escaping chaingrabbing, because they SOMEHOW found a way to not get owned by it.
- Upthrow Uair. So people complain about a measly 40% that chaingrabbing can produce on SOME people. How about Uthrow uair? It's a guaranteed combo against Marth until very high damage. It's a killing move that is a direct result of a grab. Even with proper DI, a fast fox will uthrow uair marth to kill him with relative ease.
- Nair combos. Nair combos with itself against marth, and mixed with jabs, it'll combo into other things. Marth's weight JUST SO HAPPENS to be perfect for Fox to mess around with.
- Light shield edgeguarding against marth. It's incredibly convenient for Fox to be able to Uair out of the ledge to kill marth in his Up+B lag.
- Marth is waveshinable. This means he doesn't fall over. This means you can infinite Marth, especially against a wall. This means that you can go Shine->Grab-> Uair, which is very nice. If you're good, you can waveshine to upsmash. This is mighty helpful against Marth, who is rather light vertically.
- Shinespike. It destroys marth. With invincibility frames from grabbing on to the edge, Marth [among other characters] is easy sniped with a shine.
SHEIK: - ... where do I start? Downthrow. At higher damages, dthrow ensures a kill with a fair, bair, or uair. How quaint. At lower damages, it can be used to chainthrow, or to combo into ftilt or utilt, which combos into Sheik's amazing aerials. Nice.
- Needles. They destroy... [DESTROY] ... marth's recovery. It almost doesn't matter which phase of the recovery Marth is in... if he gets hit by them, he's almost always a goner. If thrown from a platform, the needles combo into a grab.
- Crouchcancel (downsmash) . Marth's beautiful spacing and fair combos really mean very little if you get crouchcancelled and downsmashed. At this point, you're off the stage, trying to recover while Best Friend Sheik tries to cut up your clothes via Needles.
- Marth's up+B lag allow Sheik to use her strong aerial killing moves to make him suffer. Thank you, Mewtwoking.
"Very few killing moves, mostly relies on edgeguard kills(YEAH HIS SMASH, UP TILT, DOWN SMASH, N-AIR,FORWARD TILT, AND SPIKE ARE HORRIBLE KILLING MOVES *sarcasm*) "
This is not to say that Marth has no killing moves. In simpler terms, Marth has few moves that are actually just killing moves as opposed to edgeguarding moves. Marth's utilt and fsmash are some of these attacks. His up and down smash, however, are next to garbage. They are just far too unreliable to hit in a real match against someone who knows ANYTHING about what they're doing. Nair is not a killing move with marth. Forward tilt only kills if it's tipped, and it is very difficult to get a good tipper ftilt in. Spike is an edgeguard move; it's been stated that he uses edgeguard moves to kill as opposed to DEATH moves.
Let's minimize the sarcasm, and increase the usefulness of this website. If something I've said is faulty or misleading, let's talk about it and make this an awesome Marth ref. page! Like falcon's!
--Firexemblemxpryde 09:01, March 25, 2007 (GMT)
