Talk:Alternate costume (SSBU)/Archive 4

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Greninja's Alts may have origins

Greninja's pink costume resembles Lickitung. Greninja's black costume somewhat resembles a shiny Greninja, but with a yellow underside of the face and stomach, and an orange tongue. Greninja's green costume somewhat resembles Kecleon. Greninja's grey costume resembles the color palette of the Gameboy. Greninja's purple costume resembles Haunter. 75.70.247.220 20:22, 24 December 2018 (EST) Callistowo

You should note that the Pokémon in question are based on their tongues. I also believe that his red and blue color is based on Crawdaunt, who is a fellow Water/Dark type Shawksta (talk) 04:31, 25 December 2018 (EST)

Daisy's pink costume

So there's been a bit of back and forth on whether Daisy's pink costume resembles Peach, with the page currently including a comment that it does not. I think we should probably come to a consensus about this, since it hasn't been thoroughly discussed to my knowledge.

Here are the points for and against it being a reference:

For:

• Similar shade of pink
• Darker pink trim toward the bottom and around the waist
• Gold trim around the top layer

Against:

• Orange shoes (rather than pink)
• Purple gems (rather than blue)
• Fades into darker pink near the bottom

There's basically equal points for and against, but I'm inclined to believe it was intentionally meant to look like her. Rosalina's pink costume is said to resemble Peach despite having differently-colored shoes and gems, and Daisy's pink costume matches Peach closer than Rosalina's does. What do you think? DryKirby64 (talk) 22:21, 22 December 2018 (EST)

I honestly think Daisy's pinkish alt has nothing to do with Peach. Looking closely, the shade on Daisy's pink alt is a more reddish, more like salmon or light crimson, with dress accents that are clearly red. Peach's pink is a lot more bubblegum pink, with rose pink accents. I'd go as far to say that Daisy's "pink" alt would've been a red alt if it weren't for the other red one with black accents. Arend (talk) 15:25, 23 December 2018 (EST)

I cannot locate the specific citation, but in a Famitsu column Sakurai went into how he oversees the implementation of characters in Smash, and one of the important things he emphasized is that he does not want players to be confused with who they are playing on screen. He specifically talked about character silhouettes, with every character looking distinct, but I think this principle is reflected in the selection of colors as well. For playable characters that inherently look similar to one another, I think they avoid including alts that would make them look like one another. In Smash 64 and Melee, Mario and Luigi physically looked very similar and had comparable properties, and to impart as little confusion as possible, Mario lacks a Luigi-inspired* alt and Luigi lacks a Mario one. This type of implementation is reflected in every Smash Bros. game, including Ultimate. For example, if they weren’t worried about imparting confusion, they likely would not have removed Peach's Daisy alt or Samus' Dark Samus alt. They likely would not have removed Marth's Roy alt or changed Fox’s Wolf alt.** The only exception I can think of is with Pit in Ultimate, in which the black wings of his “fallen angel” costume were restored and make him look more similar to Dark Pit as a consequence. I don’t know why they did this – in Smash 4 they gave Pit white wings for the alt to avoid confusion – but that is the only outlier I can think of among ~500 costumes.

For this particular case, I think people will ultimately go back-and-forth with what they consider is a “similar” shade of pink. Personally, I do not think the shade is very comparable to Peach and it is the most critical component for the two to have in common if the developers wanted to be invocative of her. If they wanted the alt to look like her, why would they have changed the shade at all? Why didn’t they give her the same gems? I think it’s because they specifically did not want the alt to look like Peach and I would not suggest that it is in the article.

Nearly all of Rosalina's alts resemble Peach's, and certainly intentional, as Smash 4 was the first game where costumes were not restricted by team battles and they likely wanted to encourage situations where people on the same team chose the same color for certain battles. DK and Diddy have similar color schemes between them, for example. But even then, they avoided giving similar-looking characters alts that resembled one another. For the pink alt of Rosalina, I don't think confusing her for Peach is as big of a problem as it would be for Daisy because: A.) Rosalina is much bigger than Peach, whereas Daisy is almost the exact same size as her. B.) Rosalina is accompanied by Luma: an omnipresent, monotone, and vibrant blotch on the screen with nothing comparable in Peach’s design. C.) They do not any moves or animations in common.

(*)To be clear, I know Mario’s alt is attributed to Luigi’s appearance in the arcade Mario Bros., but that does not look like Luigi’s current default appearance in Smash Bros.

(**)Despite what the article currently implies, I would not say Fox’s eighth color “resembles Wolf” because – to me – it looks like the developers changes the alt specifically to look less like Wolf.Nintendo101 (talk) 12:27, 24 December 2018 (EST)

Mario and Luigi both have Waluigi alts too. VoqéoT 12:38, 24 December 2018 (EST)

Yeah, but they were both introduced in Brawl and Smash 4, when the characters were better differentiated physically and mechanically. Nintendo101 (talk) 12:46, 24 December 2018 (EST)

Dark Samus's Black costume

I believe there is an inconsistency with the current "Origin" of Dark Samus's Black Alt Color. Currently, the description of the Black suit is listed as "Resembles Orange Phazon from Metroid Prime." Although the original editor of this fact may have been on to something, they needed to go just a little bit further into the Lore of Metroid Prime to find the real origin.

Dark Samus's Black Alt color is actually a reference to the creature, Metroid Prime. Metroid Prime was the final boss in "Metroid Prime" for the Nintendo Game Cube. During Phase One, Samus would fight Metroid Prime in its spider-like physical form. This form was Black with Orange accent coloring. The accent coloring would change during the fight to Red, White, Purple, and back to Orange, depending on what type of weapon Metroid Prime was using during the Phase One fight. The Black and Orange color exactly matches Dark Samus's Alt color. That and the fact that Dark Samus was born from a fusion of Metroid Prime, Phazon energy and Samus's DNA along with her Phazon Armor, as shown in the Secret 100% ending cinematic for Metroid Prime. Please see the following link for reference information regarding this fact. https://www.metroidwiki.org/wiki/Metroid_Prime_(specimen)

(don't forget to sign your comments on talk pages, with --~~~~)

I presume you're referring to these two pieces of artwork? If so, then yes: I suppose I can see the similarity there. It's also worth noting that the concept art cited as inspiration for Dark Samus's silver costume happens to use the same (or a very similar) color scheme as another piece of Metroid Prime concept art, which would support your arguemnt.

However, I will point out that this specific black/orange color palette is never actually used in-game. The Metroid Prime's "default" color scheme appears to be black/silver, as seen in the Metroid Prime's intro cutscene and in its Brawl trophy. During the battle, it switches to yellow, white, red, and/or purple, but never orange. As I said, we are already citing concept art for the silver costume, so it doesn't hurt your argument too much, but it does mean that this color scheme (existing only in artwork, not in-game) is a little more obscure than the in-game Orange Phazon. --PeabodySam (talk) 11:30, 24 December 2018 (EST)

Incineroar, Sheik, Marth, and other costumes

I know the page currently lists Big the Cat as the inspiration for Incineroar's purple alt, but I'm seeing some edit reverting previous claims. Many costumes in Smash Ultimate have major value changes, and they're almost always based on something. Not only are Incineroar and Big both felines, but The Big the Cat spirit fight uses this alt as well. Also, if some comments are disputing the Infernape connection due to the grey fur, shouldn't we do the same for its shiny alt? I mean, both greys are much darker than the actual shiny coloration.

Sheiks last alt is most certainly based on Tetra.

Marth's alt is very similar to Camus, and the Camus spirit fight uses this alt as well.

King K. Rool's white alt heavily resembles Lord Fredrick from Tropical Freeze, see its spirit fight.

Mewtwo's green/yellow alt bears a strong resemblence to it's original shiny coloration in Gold/Silver.

Charizard's Yellow alt resembles Dragonite as well, see its spirit fight.

Is Sonic's black alt not based on Shadow? Luigi86101 (talk) 23:20, 24 December 2018 (EST)

Spirit Battles can certainly conextualize plausibility for certain alts, but I would strongly advice that we don’t use Spirit Battles as explicit evidence of inspiration, especially since the alts were created independently of their useage in Spirit Battles. Many of them were introduced in previous games. If the purple Incineroar is based on Big because of the Spirit Battles, than surely the black Dr. Mario is based on Hal Emmerich, Ridley is based on Medeus, K. Rool is based on the Imprisoned etc. I agree that Chrom’s yellow alt looks like Owaine because it resembles him and is of reasonable plausibility, not because it is used for his Spirit Battle. It was determined that Sheik’s eighth alt does not resemble Tetra well enough when it was introduced in Smash 4 (and - if we are going by your line of reasoning - the blue Toon Link alt is based on Tetra because that is the costume used for Tetra’s Spirit Battle, not Sheik. Shadow has a similar issue where they don’t use Sonic’s black alt for that battle.) The white K. Rool is too derivative from Lord Frederick, and the yellow Charizard likely would have blue wing membranes if it was directly based on Dragonite. The only thing shared between Sonic’s black alt and Shadow is that their both black. Literally nothing else is shared. Yada yada yada. Nintendo101 (talk) 02:02, 25 December 2018 (EST)

Incineroar's alt and Big the Cat look much more similar than the other spirit battles you mentioned, and that wasn't the original reason anyway, just a supporting detail. I'm not using spirit battles as a sole explanation for some alts, just as a reference since some spirit battles' character alts could legitimately be the character they were originally based on. Charizard's yellow alt's wing membranes are blue enough to be Dragonite if the purple and grey alt's are purple enough to be Zubat and Aerodactyl respectively. Two of ROB's alts being based on glitch enemies from Gyromite are much more of a stretch then some of the ones I mentioned, and the yellow one doesn't even look like ROB's alt. But yeah, I can see how Sheik's isn't Tetra and Sonic's isn't Shadow. And I said that Marth's is Camus, not that Chrom's is Owain (that one's already mentioned on the page). Luigi86101 (talk) 23:01, 26 December 2018 (EST)

K Rool’s white in my opinion is either KAckle, the skeleton with the blue bandana, or a reference to the super long guide in Tropical Freeze that is white with a blue tie.

Also in my opinion, Incineroar’s black and Grey is Mightyena, especially since hyena’s are apparently closer to cats than dogs Shawksta (talk) 04:28, 25 December 2018 (EST)

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Bowser's pink alt is almost certainly based off of Bowletta from Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga.

Captain Falcon's green alt resembles the Wild Goose, his gold alt the Golden Fox. His cyan alt resembles Rick Wheeler, his successor.

Dr. Mario's red, blue, green, and yellow alts represent the 4 viruses in his games; the first three being the colors of real nurses, doctors, and surgeons could simply be coincidental.

Falco's pink alt references Katt Monroe, his implied romantic interest.

Fox's orange alt is based on Falco's earlier outfits.

Ganondorf's violet alt could represent Yuga from A Link Between Worlds, his white skin possibly representing Ganon.

Ice Climbers's green/yellow alt resembles some of the vegetables from their game.

Luigi's blue alt seems to resemble his appearance in an obscure Japanese-only TV show, his yellow art representing his Atari XE model.

Marth's red and green alts reference Cain and Abel.

Mewtwo's brown alt could reference its original in-game appearance due to the Game Boy's limited colors, with its pink alt referencing early art.

Mr. Game & Watch's red, green, and blue alts could reference later Game & Watch models that could represent these three colors along with purple (which is obviously not an alt).

Peach's gold alt represents the rather aptly named Gold Peach, and the black alt could represent the Shadow Queen from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, with some creative liberties for each of course.

Samus's black alt could reference Kanden from Metroid Prime: Hunters.

Sheik's white alt is almost certainly based on Impa.

Young Link's pink, blue, and orange alts could simply represent Breath of the Wild's dye system, although this is a loose connection. --Grapevine (talk) 19:36, 25 December 2018 (EST)

Pretty sure that Aaronitmar speculates more than we do, and also gets information from us. And a lot of those "could be" statements don't exactly go well with us. Aidan, the Festive Rurouni 19:41, 25 December 2018 (EST)

I was the one who originally proposed that Samus's black alt could reference Kanden. I'm also the one who later removed it from the main page (but after Aaronitmar made his video). Why? Because it was brought to my attention that Kanden's Spirit Battle uses Samus's green alt instead. I have no idea why the developers did this (the black alt definitely is a closer match than the green alt), but it would raise the question of why they wouldn't use a Kanden-themed alt for a Kanden Spirit Battle... and the only answer that makes sense is that the alt simply wasn't based on Kanden in the first place, and the resemblance to Kanden is only a coincidence. Therefore, I removed it.

On the topic of Kanden and Big the Cat, I tried to start a discussion about how much weight Spirit Battles should have in supporting/deconfirming alternate costume sources. Unfortunately, the talk page was getting too long and the discussion was archived before anyone replied. --PeabodySam (talk) 19:53, 25 December 2018 (EST)

Yeah he speculates a lot, but the Gold Peach one seems like the actual origin of Peach's gold alt. Luigi86101 (talk) 23:06, 26 December 2018 (EST)

Aidan is right. As specified by our policy, we should be conservative with alts and shouldn’t assign references just because it “could” be plausible. Attributions should be obvious, objectively plausible, or explicitly stated by the developers.
I don’t think the Gold Peach attribution makes sense because there is already ways in the game for the game for characters to become entirely gold, such as on Golden Plains or with Xerneas. Plus, Peach’s alt is yellow, not gold. They are different shades of color. I think it’s more reasonable to think they just gave Peach a yellow gown because it looks nice. And for the record, there is no “green” Virus in the Dr. Mario games. Nintendo101 (talk) 13:03, 27 December 2018 (EST)