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Dr. Mario and Mario in SSB4

Are these two clones or semi-clones? They have different down special and down aerial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zrksyd (talk • contribs) 11:03, 9 November 2014 (EST)

Sakurai called him a clone and he has more cloned moves than Melee Ganondorf, he's a clone, but if you want to argue it, go ahead, there are arguments for it on the third archive of this page, don't argue there though. Also, sign with 4 tildes (~~~~) Laikue (talk | contribs) 11:43, 9 November 2014 (EST)

Having two different moves doesn't stop you from being a clone if the entire rest of your moveset is the same. I made a compilation on this page if you want to know more. Toomai Glittershine The Chilled 12:04, 9 November 2014 (EST)

Dr. Mario's not a clone, since he has one major difference that makes him a semi-clone!Nintenzilla (talk) 16:49, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

You completely disregarded what Toomai said one post above you. One or two "major" differences is not significant enough to matter if the majority of his moveset is the same. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

In addition, Dr. Mario is officially recognized by the developers as a clone in multiple ways. No argument. Toomai Glittershine The Honcho 17:46, 5 May 2015 (EDT)\

Huh, how is Captain Falcon considered a Samus clone? They're nothing alike! Right?Nintenzilla (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Yes, hence why on that particular page, Captain Falcon is marked in the "non-clone" category. Stop jumping to conclusions without reading everything. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Why I am offended! You're jumping to conclusions too you arguementetist! I was just asking a question, no need to be harsh!Nintenzilla (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Hey, easy. Nobody's trying to be hostile toward you. They're just trying to help you out. It couldn't hurt to read a little bit further before automatically assuming something. Bulbaboy (talk) 22:05, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Huh, I guess you're right! Sorry about that, anyway, back to before, it's kind of strange since Brawl de-cloned all the characters yet Dr. Mario is still a clone? Is that not a little odd?Nintenzilla (talk) 22:08, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Kirby and Ike

My little sister pointed this out for me. In Brawl, Kirby and Ike have the same up-special. Can I put this in semiclones? I am JigglyPurin. (talk) 12:28, 24 November 2014 (EST)

No. You need a whole lot more than one similar move to be a semi-clone. Toomai Glittershine The Inconceivable 12:31, 24 November 2014 (EST)

And plus, the two attacks function very differently. Aidan the Gamer 12:53, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Mario and Luigi

Ahem. I am The Master Hand. I am here to talk about Mario and Luigi. Come on you guys. they have WAY too many different moves to be considered Semi-Clones. I swear I even counted all the differences. They share at least 8 moves, and have at least 9 unique moves. Thoughts? The Master Hand—It's time. 18:04, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Here's what you're saying: Mario & Luigi have 17 moves each. They share 8 moves and have 9 unique moves each. That would be an 8:9 ratio, which out of 17 moves, 1/2 of the moves they have they share, while the other 1/2 are unique. That itself is almost a 1:2 ratio, so saying they're not semi-clones, by that logic, would be wrong. Rtzxy Reflect! 18:13, 29 November 2014 (EST)

I made a page on this topic. Basically, if Lucas is a semi-clone in Brawl (which he is, it's difficult to argue), so is Luigi in SSB4. Toomai Glittershine The Loony 18:17, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Also, this discussion has been made here before. See this page. Bulbaboy (talk) 18:36, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Hey guys... I recounted the moves. Luigi has 13 unique moves and 8 shared moves. Does that technically mean, since he has 5 more unique moves rather than non-unique moves, He would be considered a Non-Clone? Or at least a Semi-Semi-Clone? Hahahaha...ha...ha....ha. Uhm... Ok bye. The Master Hand—It's time. 11:53, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Going off of what Toomai says, Luigi has around 14 out of 23 moves shared. 14 divided by 23 is around 59%. Because 59 is above half but still below 75 (which I think any clone who's above that counts as a clone), Luigi is therefore a semi-clone. Nothing more. Aidan the Gamer 12:39, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Roy (SSB4) more of a semi-clone?

Alot of his moves have seemingly different animations and properties compared to Marth (most notably his F-Smash, F-Air, D-Air, U-Tilt, Jab, Dash Attack). Though his specials are more or less the same aside from small differences in properties.

Are these changes enough to be "upgraded" to semi-clone? His moveset has about the same amount of differentiation that Toon Link has, who is classified as a semi.

Let's wait for Toomai's semi-official test to be sure. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 13:57, 14 June 2015 (EDT)

From what I've played, I'd say he's Semi-clone now. He hits a lot harder, his standard attack is a single hit like Ganondorf's and as said above, if Toon Link is the minimum of what's needed to be a semi then Roy passes. Besides, Clones are characters made with slight variations on existing characters while Semis have more work put into them. Roy is Luigi to Marth's Mario and Lucy's Dr. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 14:42, 14 June 2015 (EDT)

Also, Did you forget they have differents different walking animation and I think Link and Toon Link are more similar than Roy and Marth. Jf811 (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2015 (EDT)

Roy is most defiantly a semi-clone in this game. He has 9 attacks that are different from Marth; the same amount of differences Falco/Ganondorf have from Fox/Falcon have and more differences than Toon Link has who is ironically listed as a semi-clone. This needs to be changed.

Also, I think Roy has longer range than Marth interms of his sword but I need some back-up on that Guybrush20X6 (talk) 19:35, 16 June 2015 (EDT)

Semi-clone. On top of what was already mentioned, he has different movement physics; he falls faster and is generally less floaty than Marcina. b2jammer (talk) 10:50, 17 June 2015 (EDT)

We've already decided that he's a semi-clone from Toomai's testing. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 12:05, 17 June 2015 (EDT)

Regarding Echo Fighters

The recent reveal of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate debuted the term "Echo Fighter", which exclusively refers to characters that have incredibly minor differences from their original counterparts. For example, Lucina and Dark Pit are deemed Echo Fighters, but Dr. Mario isn't, despite originally being lumped up with them. Should this page be renamed Echo Fighter, or should it be made a separate page, while this one remains for semi-clones? MissingNumbers (talk) 00:28, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

I think it should be renamed. 73.45.30.142 12:54, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

We should wait to see what exactly the Echo characters are like first. But also remember that SmashWiki is not official, so if the term "clone" remains more popular even if they are synonyms, we will likely keep the page at "clone". TheNuttyOne 17:19, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Clone vs Echo

I'm not sure what the dividing factor is but from looking at footage, I think it's when there's a massive difference in move mechanics. Basically, if we need to do some testing to figure out what the difference is then they're an Echo. Not sure how Dr. Mario factors in but it looks like he got more unique moves in the transition (meteor stomp, heck yeah!). Question is, do we list the Semi-Clones still now that there's something offical going on? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 06:36, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Okay, going off of what we've seen so far, I think I've determined what qualifies a fighter as an Echo Character and what qualifies a character as just a plain old clone or semi-clone.

Out of all three Echo Characters thus far (Dank Pit, Lucina, and Daisy), they all have one thing in common; it seems virtually all their attack animations are 1-1 with their source character, and the differences in their movesets are extremely minimal. Meanwhile, the rest of the clones/semi-clones either have some different moves, or have enough differences that, even when sharing all animations, play quite differently (like Fox and Falco in Melee). This is why characters like Pichu, while still appearing to be a full clone, is not classified as an echo character.

I think that echo character is simply the next level underneath clones. Echo characters means characters that are basically completely 1:1 with their source character (barring victory animations, taunts, and potentially final smashes), both in terms of animations and gameplay, with extremely minimal or at times bordering on almost no differences at all.

So, I classify it like this:

Unique Character ↪ Semi-clone ↪ Clone ↪ Echo Character ↪ Alternate Costume character (like Alph and Koopalings).

So, I propose splitting it into three categories; semi-clones, clones, and echo characters.173.79.196.33 17:03, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Fair enough, though I think we shoul reserve the term Echo Characters only for those that are officially called as such. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

I'm of the opinion that we should call "echo character" an official term of "clone character" and then not use it (unless someone has an official source mentioning clone characters?) Serpent  King 17:19, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Generally in agreement with SK, although it wouldn't hurt to point it out on the pages for Dark Pit, Lucina, and Daisy since they're explicitly labeled as such. But yes, it does seem to be a case similar to ukemi/tech where a formal term is introduced long after the more well-known term, and doesn't really supersede it. I think the only hiccup is the lack of specificity on what qualifies as an echo fighter versus just a related moveset - Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Pichu aren't listed as echo fighters, for example. Miles (talk) 17:22, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Since I already gave my theory above on the differences between clones and echo characters, I think the best thing to do now is wait for more Echo characters to be announced and then check to see if they all have Dark Pit/Lucina level differences before proceeding.173.79.196.33 18:09, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

I think I have a good distinction between Echo, clone and semi-clone, namely that clones are decided and developed separate from the main cast. An Echo is as descirbed, the same height, weight, move animations ect. ect., a clone is a character that has more differences than that (eg. SSB4 Dr. Mario) and was still developed separately from the main cast, Semi-clones are characters that are derived from others but were always part of the dev cycle. How's that work for everyone? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

Sure, that makes sense. Works for me.173.79.196.33 17:44, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

The article should be renamed. This is not like tech/ukemi, because one is a technical detail that casual players don't pay attention too, and the other is a heavily publicized fact of newcomer reveals in Ultimate so far. Going forward, people new to Smash who get involved are not going to know what clones are, only echoes. Watch YouTube videos and read Twitter posts; you'll see that casual Smash fans are familiarized with the concept of an echo, and even professional Smashers are using that term when discussing the game now. In a few months when the game comes out, this wiki will be the only place left using the old unofficial term, unless we change things. The only plausible argument for not renaming it would be because the term primarily applies only to one out of 5 Smash games (though it really applies to Smash 4, too), but even then, Echo Fighter should get its own article and clone should be a separate article that's primarily Melee-focused. SuperFalconBros (talk) 10:30, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

Until now we didn't have an official name for them and clone/semi-clone were just coined by the players. Nintendo has made it clear that there are two types of characters, echo fighters and non-echo fighters, therefore, "semi-clones" should be omitted and we can simplify down to just these two (rename all characters classified as "clones" to "echo fighters"). A separate section addressing characters with similar movesets (semi-clones) can be included but their character pages already make those distinctions. Nergal06 (talk) 11:28, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

And besides, with Chrom and Dark Samus getting revealed with differences that previously thought would disqualify someone as an Echo, maybe this page should be moved. SeanWheeler (talk) 12:17, 22 August 2018 (EDT)

Regarding Marth and Lucina

While it's a little early to assume, it has been observed that Marth's neutral B now tilts slightly upward while Lucina's is still straight. This has been show several times on his page's video and the direct aswell. Should this be added beforehand and then confirmed once his character page gets updated?

179.100.111.55 08:57, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Cross Generational Clones

Should we remove this because Y. Link and T. Link are both in SSB5? --96.245.186.209 09:32, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

Wolf and Ganondorf

By this point, why is Wolf a foot note that essential says 'don't bring this argument up' but Ganondorf is still listed as a semi-clone in SSBU after getting new smashes. Is there a ratio of cloned to non-cloned moves one should have before they qualify? And does it make a difference if cloned moves are specials or normals? Wolf is still very clearly developed off of Fox as a base and is treated as such by way of Special Moves (even getting the same Final Smash change in SSBU) despite having all different Normals.

Ganondorf also has most of Falcon's Specials as a base, but also has very few if any fully cloned animations, and practically no cloned functions from Falcon's Normal moves anymore. Furballcan (talk) 00:06, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

Ganondorf does still pull a few moves from Falcon, unlike Wolf who is more different from Fox than Falco is. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 00:09, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

I'm inclined to say some of the supposed clones/semi-clones should be removed since we know so little about how they play; we don't know how clone-y they will be. Luigi and Ganondorf in particular were already barely semi-clones in Brawl and Smash 4 and seem to have even more differences now. TheNuttyOne 00:27, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

I still think Luigi and Wolf should be listed as clone characters, Luigi has Mario's up tilt now, but Ganondorf having significantly different traits and a body frame should discount him. Wolf even has some Fox moves now as he didn't before. Wolf's specials are also clearly based on Fox's specials. --Memoryman3 (talk) 09:11, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

Richter and Simon

Isn't it a bit hasty to say "Richter's differences are purely cosmetic"? I know Sakurai stated in the direct that "their strengths are the same" or something to that extent, but that just sounds like typical PR speak for clones. Hinata2000100 (talk) 11:48, 9 August 2018 (MST)

Strongly agreed. "No confirmed gameplay differences" ≠ "confirmed to be no gameplay differences". Miles (talk) 01:54, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

The direct mentioned that his look, voice and animations set him apart, but his strength is the exact same. This is in contrast to say someone like Daisy, where her moves behave differently plus she has different character traits. Sakurai usually tells us in advance about how clones are different. --Memoryman3 (talk) 14:23, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

Even if taken very literally, there's plenty of open-endedness for things like knockback angles, character weight/fall speed, etc. There's zero harm in leaving it open-ended. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Miles (talk) 15:01, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

I understand Sakurai stated "their strengths are the same", but like I said, that just sounds like PR speak for clones. We don't know what Richter's final smash is, we don't know how much damage his attacks do relative to Simon's, we don't know if there are even minute hitbox/knockback differences... There's just way too much unknown to say for a fact that "their differences are only aesthetic". Hinata2000100 (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

Sakurai talked about how Dark Pit/Pit and Lucina/Marth were separated due to their different strengths here. Last time he said strengths were identical it was explaning the alternate costumes such as Wii Fit Trainer. The Japanese blog post also states that his attacks (not basic body skill like Daisy) are the same as Simon's, but with slight gesture (animation) differences. I am extremely confident that Richter has zero gameplay differences from Simon. --Memoryman3 (talk) 09:08, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

That is not 100% confirmed. You are unreasonably and unnecessarily jumping to conclusions. There's zero harm in leaving it open-ended until we know for sure. Miles (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

Official name for clones

Since now they've officially given the clones a name (Echo Fighters), shouldn't we change the page's name to the official name (Echo Fighters) and make the previous name (clones) a redirect? --Metalex123 (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

Read 5 sections up Serpent  King 21:07, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

Isabelle

She has some moves similar to Villager, such as Pocket and a balloon-based recovery. I'm hesitant on adding her to the semi-clones because she doesn't seem like a semi-clone, however she could just be a "Luigi's as a clone of Mario" clone. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

Well Isabelle has a brand new move and her planting move is completely different in function along with her bucket attack. I'd say that qualifies her for at least a Lucas level Semi-clone. Ironic that this page gets protected just before something big goes down. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 20:53, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

I don't think she's a clone at all. Rather than list her differences as SerpentKing requested, I'm going to list their similarities:

• Pocket
• Dash attack involves throwing a pot (except it's not a plant pot)
• Grabbing with a bug net
• Neutral Aerial appears to be similar.
• Balloon Trip, but with animal-shaped balloons and a bench
• Final Smash

That's all I can find to be identical, but everything else appears to be completely different. Unowninator (talk) 21:12, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

"Down Smash" seems to be the same, but with water buckets instead. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:15, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

It doesn't bury foes though, so I fail to see how it's different from the down smashes of say, Little Mac, Ganondorf, Mii Gunner, Ike, and several others. Unowninator (talk) 21:18, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

Prose for the table:

"Isabelle seems to share physics and several moves with Villager, such as Pocket as her neutral special. Her dash attack is seemingly the same, but has her drop a jar instead of a potted plant. Similarly, her Final Smash seems to have an identical function to Villager's, but features town hall from Animal Crossing: New Leaf rather than a house. Her up special has her sit on a bench lifted by two bunny-shaped balloons as opposed to Villager wearing a helmet with two normal balloons attached. However, she also has several unique moves, including: a move where she swings a broom overhead, a move where she uses a popper, a move where she erects a stop sign, a move where she plants Lloid as a sort of landmine that triggers when an opponent steps on it, an aerial move where she swings two pom-poms over her head, a move where she splashes water from a bucket on either side of her, and a move where she uses a fishing rod to grab and throw opponents."

TheNuttyOne 22:02, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

I agree with Nutta. We should put his description in there, and then change it when/if changes are necessary, when we know more about Isabelle and get the chance to play as her. 72.133.91.93 08:27, 14 September 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

I think at this point we need a new name for characters like Wolf and Isabelle (Maybe Luigi too) where they are very obviously derived from another character but have so many changes that they can't be called a clone. (not without all of Smashwiki trying to bite your head off for it anyway.) Guybrush20X6 (talk) 07:58, 17 September 2018 (EDT)

Isabelle can’t really be considered a semi clone. She shares less moves with Villager than entirely unique moves that have radically different functions. Her physics are highly likely to be altered too considering that’s part of balancing a character fully. For comparison, all 4 special moves for Wolf have similar operation methods to Fox. Luigi also shares a lot of frame data with Mario. --Memoryman3 (talk) 04:24, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

'Semi-clone is a term used for characters who share some of their moveset with another character, with some similarity in physics, but have enough differentiating moves and characteristics that calling them a "clone" wouldn't be entirely accurate.'

She has 6-7 shared moves, more than you list for Wolf, and we list other highly diverging characters already. I also don't know why you'd expect their physics to significantly diverge, but either way it's speculative. I think she should remain on the list, but moreover I think the edit warring over her inclusion and removal needs to stop. – Emmett 06:09, 24 September 2018 (EDIT)

Isabelle’s shared moves are Grab (likely different properties), Dash Attack (most likely functions differently), Pocket (most likely a different formula) . The Final Smash has a similar animation but the building is clearly different and it has a larger explosion radius. Everything else is so drastically different in basic function and frame data even at a low level of play, whilst if you play Fox you can vaguely get a feel for Wolf. Also, the reason why I expect Villager and Isabelle’s physics to diverge is due to balancing out her moveset and how functionally different they are, even more so than the other semi clones. If Wolf isn’t listed, Isabelle shouldn’t either. A footnote about her shared moves can be added. --Memoryman3 (talk) 11:53, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

... and now the page is protected. ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 16:51, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Memoryman3 isn't right about Echo Fighters in Ultimate.

Memoryman3 is at it with the Echo Fighter nonsense. He constantly cites this press release from the Japanese Nintendo website which includes a definition appended to the "Echo Fighter" clones Chrom, Dark Samus and Richter that says "The basic parameters such as attack power, dizzying power, walking, running speed, jumping power, weight, etc. are about the same fighter for the original fighter" according to Google Translate, or "The basic parameters such as attack power and knockback power, walking, running speed, jump height, weight, etc. are about the same as the original fighter." according to Memoryman3's translation.

Furthermore, the article (as well as the Echo Fighter definition) was written by "Planning Department Hiro P," according to Google Translate, rather than Sakurai himself. This "Planning Department Hiro P" is likely a lower-level employee who possesses no knowledge of the actual development process behind the characters (or semi-clones) beyond the information presented in the Direct, and is likely speculating based on what he knows about the clones based off of Dark Pit and Lucina in Smash 4, who seem to perfectly fit the definition.

It is unknown if this definition fully applies to all Echo Fighters, but MM3 thinks otherwise (heck, he even thinks Richter, plays identically to Simon, based off Japanese PR-speak info on Richter and MM3's claim that the English info is a mistranslation), and tries to use this definition as an excuse to justify Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu not being Echoes (he falsely labels them as semi-clones, despite those characters possessing fewer differences than the likes of Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco, Roy, Lucas and Toon Link in Smash 4) when it is most likely due to them being Melee veterans. In fact, Memoryman3's interpretation of the definition prevents any of the Melee clones in their initial appearances (possibly barring Dr. Mario due to his near-identical physics) from being classified as Echo Fighters! Physics isn't what makes a clone a clone rather than a semi-clone, it's moveset similarity.

Therefore, I demand that my edits (found at User:Zakawer2/Clone) be applied to this article (and full protection be maintained as well). Zakawer2 (talk) 13:50, 21 September 2018 (EDT)

First, it is inappropriate to "demand" that edits be made to any mainspace content. The wiki is a community-driven, collaborative effort to document the game, and changes to articles should be based on editors' consensus. Strong feelings are not a substitute for that consensus. It is also inappropriate to suggest a page deserves protection due to disagreement with another user, particularly permanent protection; page protection is generally only suitable for high-visibility pages that are prone to vandalism, or to resolve temporary issues.

Second, looking at the difference between yours and Memoryman3's versions (seen here), I am somewhat confused as to what you are arguing for. In general, I am in favor of his edit; the descriptions of characters are better worded, less prone to bias, and contain fewer grammatical mistakes. Could you provide some clarity as to which parts specifically you are objecting to? – Emmett 15:10, 21 September 2018 (EDT)

I am mainly objecting to the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate section. He keeps on using that Echo Fighter definition from a Japanese press release that wasn't even written by Sakurai or someone directly involved in the game's development process, and claims that Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu's non-adherence to this definition is why they're not Echo Fighters. Zakawer2 (talk) 16:00, 21 September 2018 (EDT)

In the absence of further evidence, I think we should stick with what is officially confirmed, whether it's allegedly been written by a low-level employee or not. It was also my understanding that those designations exist in game, making them the definitive answer, but I could be mistaken on that point. – Emmett 19:31, 22 September 2018 (EDT)

"While Ganondorf did not receive any new moves..." Yes he did.

Flame Choke was a new move. ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 17:45, 26 September 2018 (EDT)