Forum:Link (SSBM)

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I don't want this to be long, so just discuss about Link. From anything to how to make him better to his users, discuss everything. I want you guys to bring in your own opinions, all being accepted. How do you think anyone can make him better? Is there something we may have missed; and more importantly, are there secrets that I am holding about Link?

Discuss. Requiem of Ice (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2013 (EST)

Melee is 12 years old, and has been played, analyzed, and dissected to and back; every single bit of frame and hitbox data of every move from every moveset has been uncovered and recorded, and it has been shown over and over what works and what doesn't. You're not going to "discover" anything new to make Link (or any character) "better" at this point, barring some crazy glitch that would be too convoluted to use anyway. There's nothing you can do to help with Link's inherently bad traits that keeps him from being able to viably compete, nothing of note has been "missed". What the tier list shows won't be changing in any significant way at this point, the most you can expect is a character being shown to be slightly better at even higher levels of play than a character or two above them.

I also guarantee any "secrets" of yours are useless/impractical/negligible techs, or is information already known. 99.9% of the time "secret techniques" don't work. Omega Tyrant 09:04, 24 November 2013 (EST)

Oh, it's too bad, then. I guess I'll just keep all of my techniques to myself whenever I enter tournaments. Of course, you are always invited to come against me in a Melee Money Match (or when I get Brawl back, an Online Brawl Match, but that's for a different discussion). That's when I may surprise you. Requiem of Ice (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2013 (EST)

Haha, sure, I'll wifi you, and if you ever come around here, I'll money match you in both Melee and Brawl. Just don't be a Smash Master and bitch about the lag when your "secret techniques" don't work. Omega Tyrant 00:39, 26 November 2013 (EST)

That would be nice, then. But I won't only use Link in Brawl (only in Melee). Also, do you have anything positive to say about Link? Requiem of Ice (talk) 00:52, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Ok as the primary active Melee player on the website here's what I have to say. Link is a mediocre character with a slew of neat tricks (none of which are your "secret techniques" posted on your page) but with those deceptively good traits comes an array of negative traits that hold Link back from being a fully viable character.

Link's most notable trait his is fantastic zoning ability, having considerable disjoint on his hitboxes (not to Marth levels though) and 2 very, very useful projectiles (bombs and boomerangs) both of which give Link a surprisingly deadly combo game. Furthermore Link's attacks in general are fairly speedy and actually have a great deal of power, with 4 of them being great finishers. These moves are down air, up air, forward air, and spin attack and all of them can be set up by the projectiles I mentioned earlier. Another 1 of Link's positives is his recovery. Link's spin attack gives him a good amount of distance to recover high or he can do a wall grapple out of an air dodge to recover low. Link can also extend his recovery by bomb jumping (up b'ing into thrown bomb). Link is also a fairly heavy character so he can be sent offstage quite a few times and recover safely before he is sent off the stage permanently.

Now here comes the bad things about Link. His biggest weakness is his lack of mobility options to help him zone. Melee is an extremely fast past game and the majority of top tier characters are separated from the rest of the cast simply due to their ability to outmaneuver them. Yes, some characters like Falco, Peach, and Ganon have only average or limited mobility, but make up for it by having strong defensive tools to punish movement. Link doesn't have that. While he can swat opponents away with the tools I mentioned above, he cannot move away from opponents quickly. Link has a slow running animation, a subpar dash dash, a short and slow wavedash, and a slow jump and poor air speed. This ironically makes him easy to corner and Link has few tools to deal with corner pressure having only a spin attack out of shield. The next problem is Link's weight. While it does give him a good crouch cancel and longevity against single hits, it augments Link's difficulty of getting out of pressure or combos when cornered.

Now a bit more general advice from me. First of all, listen to people more experienced than you and don't talk like you can revolutionize the game when actually you don't know anything. I'm a reasonable person but given that make false claims about Link AND the fact you aren't by any means a notable player at all, I have to conclude you're not too great at the game and thus can't take your claims seriously. Drop the act dude. While he isn't a bad character, Link has no hidden game-breaking potential. May you be enlightened soon. --Brian^{Don't try me!} 03:06, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Now with Brawl Link, he again has his projectiles and great reach, his neat tricks, and he has even better KO power than he did in Melee, with the KO attacks Brian mentioned being even stronger (bar uncharged Spin Attack), his smashes being stronger and more reliable, and his forward/up tilts can KO reliably now as well. Link additionally has the best vertical momentum cancelling, tying him with DK for third best maximum vertical endurance, and his horizontal endurance, while much worse, is still pretty good.

That's about where the good ends for Brawl Link. See those mobility problems Brian mentioned? It's even worse for Link in Brawl, as he's one of the few characters to have their air speed nerfed; he went from having an air speed value of 1, good for 6th best in Melee, down to .8084, sixth worst in Brawl (and third worst among returning characters). Link did get a useable DACUS, but since his up smash takes so long to complete, it can only be used as an attack option and not as an movement option like Snake's. Additionally Link's attacks are really slow, and he lacks a really fast attack, with his fastest ground attack being his jab at 7 frames and fastest aerial being bair at 6 frames (for comparison, Ganondorf is the only character in Brawl whose fastest attack is even slower than this, and even then he can use WizQuake to produce a 2 frame attack if he doesn't care about the tremendous ending lag). As a result, Link has an inclose game that is worse than everyone else's bar maybe Ganon, and is perhaps the worst character at escaping pressure.

So you might be thinking "ok, I'll just my projectiles and superior reach to keep people out!". However, it doesn't quite work that way, as Link's projectiles are really mediocre, as they aren't really effective when they land and Link can't fire them fast enough or combine them with great mobility to reliably keep opponents out. As a result, Link will lose projectile wars against most other characters that have true projectiles (being really only able to beat Zelda, Luigi, and Mr. Game & Watch (and Kirby if you count the laughable Final Cutter as a true projectile)), while not being particularly difficult for characters that lack them to approach. And while Link does have great reach, his zair is his only good spacer, as the rest of his attacks are too laggy to be unpunishable, even when spaced. So Link is pretty much the worst at camping and keeping opponents out when it comes to the characters that can do it, while also being perhaps the worst character inclose, and being terrible at initiating approaches. This is a fatal combination that will result in a low tier placement in any of the smash games.

The final nail in the coffin for Link though is his recovery. Brian mentioned how his recovery was actually pretty good in Melee, and was one of his greatest strengths. Well in Brawl, it been nerfed to hell, with his air speed going from great to one of the worst, his falling speed being faster (relative to the cast), his wall-grapple being replaced with the inferior tether recovery, bomb jumping no longer being possible, and Spin Attack gaining very poor distance while also now heavily relying on momentum (if Link is not moving forward when using it, it gains no horizontal distance whatsoever, meaning a semi-spike of any strength will prevent recovery). This all results in a recovery that gains terrible distance (its natural distance is so bad Link is one of the few characters in Brawl that can fail a recovery from the standard horizontal trajectory on a standard stage by simply being knocked back too far) while being heavily gimpable (and Link doesn't have good means to fend off edge-guarders while Spin Attack doesn't offer much protection). Link's recovery has been argued to be the worst, with Ivysaur being the only character who is generally agreed to have a worse recovery. His terrible recovery significantly compromises Link's superb endurance potential, and as a result Link's survivability as a whole is pretty poor, with him dying quickly unless he's against a character who heavily relies on vertical KO moves of non-overwhelming power and lack any gimping capability whatsoever (which is pretty much just Zelda, who then has her down smash to kill Link early anyway).

So yeah, Link is a bonafide bottom tier character, and there's nothing "left to discover" nor "secret techniques" that can be done to help with his very significant flaws. Well, he's definitely better than Zelda at least, so Link will never have the title of worst character in Brawl. Omega Tyrant 05:56, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Let me point out various things that give you guys better insight:

1) Great finishers do not only include those four moves. They also include U-Tilt and D-Smash when combined with D-Throw, S-Smash and a perfectly landed Recovery attack (at higher percentages).

2) His "lack of mobility" is also a myth. He is barely less mobile than Peach, for example. He has almost equivalent Air Speed, Faster Ground Speed and faster, less laggy attacks. The only weakness is the height of the jump and fast-falling. Link makes up for this with his N-air, which I will explain next.

3a) The most commonly underrated attack of Link's is his N-air, which is commonly thought of as very weak. This is also not true, as subpar as it is at lower percentages, when percentages hit 50-70 (depending on character weight), his N-air becomes quite viable to the point that not even "teching" is a good option to escape it; this is due to the fact that Link's N-air has very fast end lag and good knockback at high percentages.

3b) Now here's the fun part; Link's N-air, also due to its disjointed hitbox and fast attack time, is actually a good gimping attack. Take Fox, for example; he starts to charge his recovery and Link jumps off the edge to Fox's position. Link uses his N-air to send Fox even further than before, and still has his second jump to recover back to the stage.

3c) As a final insight of Link's N-air, any character who may be light and/or floaty will have extreme difficulty against Link's N-air. This is because Link can actually send opponents upwards if the hitbox is just under the opponent while Link jumps.

4) If you want a true Zero-to-Death combo, use Link's S-Smash>D-Tilt at the edge of any stage. Your opponent will either jump and try to attack or stay in the hurt animation, giving Link time to Meteor Smash the opponent. Sometimes your opponent may actually go through the stage.

5a) Link has a slew of hidden tactics. An example is the use of his Down Smash. After 14% damage, Link can use his D-Throw>D-Smash strategy. However, on opponents like Fox, Falco and C. Falcon, Link can use his D-Smash multiple times before linking into a combo. So basically, his D-Smash is a combo starter.

5b) If you really want some combos, try, at higher percentages, using Link's U-Tilt>B-Air>B-Air and finish off with his Spin Attack. You can also D-Throw>U-Special/D-Smash at high percentages to keep the opponent at bay, either vertically or horizontally.

6) His jab attack can cancel out into either his Tilts or even Smash attacks. See, due to the low ending lag of his second jab, as well as its trapping capability, Link can damage opponents more than his normal jab combo. Try AA>S-Tilt, for example. It has roughly the same speed as his normal jab, and the opponent won't have enough time to react before it strikes; at higher percentages, it's basically a KO move.

7) Link can take advantage of characters that are sent upwards and have not begun to fall. See, if the opponent did not begin their falling animation, Link can take advantage and use his powerful aerial attacks (F-air or U-Air are the best for this situation) and dominate against characters, despite his supposed "poor mobility".

You cannot prejudge a character because of their mobility alone. You have to think outside the box, try doing something you don't normally do, and you'll be surprised at what you can actually discover. While I agree with most of what Link's weaknesses are in Melee, there are overwhelming strengths left undiscovered. Requiem of Ice (talk) 12:30, 26 November 2013 (EST)

How much have you played other people (and not just casual friends, but actual competent players)? Because most things that work on CPUs do not work on competent human players, and that stuff you listed are examples of such stuff (especially that "0-death" f-tilt to d-tilt "combo", I absolutely guarantee that would never work on an actual competent player, and even if you landed the meteor, it wouldn't kill anyone at a measly 14%). Brian can go into elaboration on why exactly the stuff you listed is bullshit (as I assume this is all Melee stuff here), but I'll just say now that if your experience is entirely CPUs and casual friends, then you will not have any idea on what will actually work and what doesn't in competitive play. Omega Tyrant 12:47, 26 November 2013 (EST)

You keep arguing on and on about how Link has all these hidden tactics and combos. You treat it as if those are simple things that any player can land at any time. "Oh, just down smash the opponent. Oh, just utilt them. Oh, just lure them to the edge and then fsmash dtilt for a guaranteed KO." The problem lies in how you get these to actually begin. No competent player is going to take your bait to approach them to the side of the stage when they're comfortably in the center. And if they did, they would come at you with tons of shield pressure that ensures you stay in a little bubble while they chip away at your defenses bit by bit until it breaks. You're not going to get many opportunities to begin any of those "combos" in high-level play because your opponent will never let you get away with those things. And guess what? Any character has their insane share of improbable combos that only work on weaker players. Take, for example, Mew2King sandbagging with Pichu and abusing his fast movement speed to overwhelm weaker players while smacking them off the stage with nair nair nair nair nair. So does Pichu have "hidden potential?" Is Pichu top tier just because it can potentially nair a bad player from mid-percent to a guaranteed KO, despite all of its weaknesses? Overall, a lot of the things you're arguing are things you can do in the game, no doubt. However, most other low tier characters have "undiscovered" combos that only work on inexperienced players, and they won't ever be able to use them against any smasher deserving of a professional title. --Timson622222 (talk) 13:00, 26 November 2013 (EST)

@OmegaTyrant: Actually, I have played with multiple people. Not only friends (who play competitively), but also other, yet less notable, Smashers. They usually choose top tier characters, whereas I choose Link. I actually discovered my tactics because of these guys. As well, I have been playing the game since 2002.

Also, as you tried arguing against my Zero-to-Death combo, Omega, you just made it sound like you didn't know anything. Let me show you why:

You said: "(especially that "0-death" f-tilt to d-tilt "combo", I absolutely guarantee that would never work on an actual competent player, and even if you landed the meteor, it wouldn't kill anyone at a measly 14%)"

However, did I say F-Tilt? Let's read my number 4 again:

I said: "4) If you want a true Zero-to-Death combo, use Link's S-Smash>D-Tilt at the edge of any stage. Your opponent will either jump and try to attack or stay in the hurt animation, giving Link time to Meteor Smash the opponent. Sometimes your opponent may actually go through the stage."

I never said F-Tilt>D-Tilt, 14% death or anything of the such! I said S-Smash>D-Tilt! Use both S-Smash attacks then deal the D-Tilt. You will still be within Meteor Smash range. Also, the Zero-to-Death combo doesn't always have to be near the edge. There will be some instances where the opponent will fall through the stage! Read my inquiries again, Omega, as you are severely mistaken. Requiem of Ice (talk) 16:03, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Do you expect yourself to just camp at the ledge until your opponent is stupid enough to dash over and then you roll behind them, side smash and then down tilt, hoping that they don't meteor cancel, or that they somehow "fall through the stage?" Citation needed, because unless you're playing on a custom stage with a single fall-through platform I'm pretty sure tournament legal stages are solid enough to obey the laws of physics. Also, which non-notable Smashers have you even played? I can guarantee you that anyone falling within your preset boundary of a "other, yet less notable, Smasher" is a quasi-competitive player who looked at the SWF tier list once, took it as the word of God, and changed their main to Fox or Falco, not knowing that they in fact play them horribly and their playstyles do not suffice for space animals. In fact, I'm willing to bet that you learned all your combos from them because they were bad, and their lack of technical and cerebral ability allowed you to get a ton of free punishes.

The whole thing about all of the combos you listed is that they are possible. They are just not always practical. In competitive play, professionals are not going to fall for a fsmash dtilt combo. They will not let you down smash them blindly without punishment. In fact, watch this clip from InternetExplorer v.s. Teczero which shows that your down throw to down smash strategy does not work, even after 14%- as you can see InternetExplorer pummeled Sheik, getting her up to 16%, then down threw her, but she teched the down throw and IE was immediately left for punishment.

I am not as knowledgeable in Melee and Brawl as Brian or OT, and this is pretty much the extent of what I can say, but I've said what I could, and here's a conclusion that wraps up my comment in a nice little take-out bag before Brian walks over your theory: You need to learn the difference between what works against no tech skill casual players and what works against professionals who actually know what they're doing. --Timson622222 (talk) 16:43, 26 November 2013 (EST)

Ah, I watched the clip. If that situation happens, I would always have to dash and Spin Attack. But knowing Sheik, it's quite hard to perform that type of combo (D-Throw>D-Smash) due to Sheik having a pseudo-fast fall speed. However, if it's used against Fox or Falco, their fast-fall speeds, being faster than Sheik's, can make it to where they will most likely be hit by the Down Smash. But not necessarily would anyone have to use D-Throw, however, but actually skip to Down Smash and hit from there. But you have to have the damage exactly at 14% damage after the throw for it to really be effective.

Next, did you see the knockback of Link's N-air in the same clip? It had significant knockback, and could have been combo'd into.

Also, if the opponent isn't within range of KO in my Zero-to-Death combo, the D-Tilt Meteor will slam the opponent onto the stage and possibly off the stage momentarily. This gives you enough time to hit with a Spin Attack Semi-Spike because the opponent would have wasted their second jump and recovery to come back.

Finally, I would like to state that using AA>S-Tilt is better than the full jab combo, because it racks up more damage and has much more knockback.Requiem of Ice (talk) 17:15, 26 November 2013 (EST)

If the d-throw -> d-smash thing only works at 14% after the throw, then it's extremely situational, and if the opponent knows you want to do it, you're just going to get really predictable. Very character-specific too. And i don't see how his down smash is useful at percentages like that.

Link's nair has mediocre knockback and it's an okay gimping tool. Sure it can be combo'd into, but read what Timson said above: You keep arguing on and on about how Link has all these hidden tactics and combos. You treat it as if those are simple things that any player can land at any time. ... The problem lies in how you get these to actually begin. ...

If the down tilt hits the opponent onstage, they will get sent up or, if they were in the air, knocked onto the ground. I don't know what the hell can cause them to /slide off the stage/ at that point. Elaborate.

For the jab/f-tilt thing, okay, but that doesn't address anything that was said before. Scr7(talk · contribs) 17:35, 26 November 2013 (EST)

F-smash to d-tilt is even more idiotic, the opponent is going to be able to react long before the ending lag wears off and you could pull off a d-tilt, competent players don't just stand there after you hit them.

"Also, if the opponent isn't within range of KO in my Zero-to-Death combo, the D-Tilt Meteor will slam the opponent onto the stage and possibly off the stage momentarily. This gives you enough time to hit with a Spin Attack Semi-Spike because the opponent would have wasted their second jump and recovery to come back."

You haven't played any competent players, as this would never work in tournament. One, you can meteor cancel instantly, so if you actually hit someone with the d-tilt meteor, they'll just jump right back up before you can react at such low damage. Two, you have to actually read what the opponent will do. Competent players don't recover like CPUs, they won't just jump right back up to you and use their recovery move in predictable fashion. They will mix things up, time the use of their jump and recovery move(s) differently, recover at different angles, sweetspot the ledge, or recover right at you offensively. This is not reliable or in any way a "combo". Three, this also ignores that Link's d-tilt has a ridiculously small sweetspot on a landlocked move, and that you would be hard pressed to actually land the damn thing in the first place. "F-smash to d-tilt" is the most ridiculously asinine "zero-death combo" I ever seen someone seriously suggest, and it's just so laughable you're actually arguing as if it's a serious game changing combo.

"Actually, I have played with multiple people. Not only friends (who play competitively), but also other, yet less notable, Smashers. They usually choose top tier characters, whereas I choose Link. I actually discovered my tactics because of these guys."

Tell me then, what have these people done then? What tournaments have they been to? What are their smasher names? Playing with tournament rules against casual friends doesn't make you competitive. You know, this reminds me of another Link player I stomped who claimed one of his friends was some national level tournament player he can beat up, and then when he gave me the name and I looked him up, turned out it was some random AiB guy that didn't have a single tournament result. And your friends "using top tier characters" doesn't matter if they're terrible and don't play the characters correctly anyway.

"As well, I have been playing the game since 2002."

This is completely irrelevant if you just been a fish in a puddle the whole time. I've been playing Smash since 2003, and I was nowhere near a competitive level in Melee until maybe recently (and even then it's at a low level), and I was playing Brawl since release and I was a just mid-level player in a weak region during my first tournament in 2011 (and I did better at my first tourney than 99% of players do). Then there's the many other players I know who have been playing Smash forever with tournament rules, and are nowhere near a competitive level. Point is, how long you have played doesn't mean a damn thing if you been in a puddle playing just CPUs and casual friends the whole time. You won't know what will actually work in practise against competent players, and you need to play better players to actually get better yourself.

"There will be some instances where the opponent will fall through the stage!"

Because banking on a glitch that will pretty much never happen is totally reliable, amirite? (Hell, I been playing the game as long as you have, and never once saw an instance of someone "falling through the stage" from being meteor smashed onstage. You're seriously going to act like this is a realistic outcome?)

Also, just a general statement in general, what is it with you Link players, that never been to a single tournament before, going on about how Link has some hidden untapped potential, years after the games have come out? When the Sonic players claimed their character to be criminally underrated, it was one, shortly after Brawl's release (and not years after when the metagame has been stabilised and established), and two, they actually went out and started placing in tournaments, actually using Sonic in ways that weren't seen before, instead of just whining on random Smash sites about it. And with Brawl Ganon players, they recognise he's the worst character in the game and revel in his terribleness, instead of going around trying to tell everyone how they're wrong and don't know Ganon's "hidden potential".

As for some general advice for you Requiem of Ice, go to some damn tournaments, before you try to seriously talk anymore about the competitive aspects of the game in an authoritative manner. With the R.O.B. thing from before, you already shown your knowledge about Smash characters is suspect at best, and is completely wrong and laughable otherwise. And when you try claiming something like "f-smash to d-tilt" as a legitimate "zero-death combo", while also claiming the opponent will recover in the exact perfect way for it to work, and that it can be relied on from a random extremely rare (if not nonexistent altogether) glitch occurring, you quite clearly show a gross misunderstanding of what actually works in competitive Smash and how competent players will actually play. Additionally, if you're the messiah of Link as you claimed to be, and got all these secret techniques and combos to crush everyone, then go to tournaments and do it. Not only would you prove yourself right and win this respect for Link you so desperately want, but also win yourself a lot of easy money in the process. If you're completely right, you have nothing to lose to go on a road trip and start sweeping these tournaments up. Omega Tyrant 03:58, 27 November 2013 (EST)

@OmegaTyrant: Tisk, tisk, tisk. You didn't understand a word I said? The opponent, no matter what will NOT be able to react, let alone recover, in time with the combo. And even if they did (which is highly unlikely), their best chance to recover would either be by jumping or recovery move; but even then, it would ultimately fail. Hell, you can even just replace D-Tilt with Up Special to semi-spike your opponent; now let's see what happens then (most likely edgehogging).

And you stated you are a "low ranked player". I simply laugh at this; I've been to tournaments, but again, they are Louisiana only tournaments (which again, Louisiana is tough). If I had the time (and the money), I would enter nationwide or worldwide tournaments. Now, I want to go against you in a MoneyMatch, but it would simply cost me too much money to get to you.

@Scr7: Now, I will elaborate on how the glitch works; it works sort of like an illusion. Now, let me give you a how to, to do it:

Get a person who can DI very well (not that it would actually matter), have infinite time and use Link against Fox. Now make sure he is near the edge, but not on the edge. Now for the fun. Use Link's S-Smash twice, and then use his D-Tilt when the timing is just right. What should actually happen is that Fox should be shot in an upside down, reverse "L" angle, giving the illusion of being shot through the stage.

However, what makes it very unique, is that Fox, nor any opponent within KO range, will be able to grab a ledge. Requiem of Ice (talk) 16:00, 27 November 2013 (EST)