Talk:Captain Falcon (SSBM)

Mr. Ng edited the the "Options from tilts" section of with the sub-headings "D-tilt against Marths/Shieks," and "F-tilt from d-throw."

Not to say that I wouldn't like to see these options listed, however, they should fall under different sections. "D-tilt against Marths/Shieks" is not an option from a D-tilt, it is an option against Marth's/Shieks from Close Quarters to near opponent, or a character specific matchup option, and "F-tilt from d-throw" is an option from D-throw. --Technomancer 07:48, August 6, 2006 (GMT) Edit: I removed them and replace with my tilt options stuff, but feel free to re-edit. I didn't move them to other sections, because I'm worried about not compelting this "completely," i.e. skipping over sections because they already had stuff in them and not presenting a complete informative guide detailing all options.

Additionally, I'd like to throw down a potential mission statement/formula for filling out the options section of the guide. Here goes:

• 1) When you fill out a topic be sure to include every option that you can think of, with a focus on completeness and accuracy. Although alot of people are going to read it and have the option to change it, if it looks complete, sounds complete, and is not complete, this will lead to inaccuracies lasting for a very long time. If you cannot do so, please leave a note here or on the wiki that it needs to be investigated/completed.
• 2) Place character specific matchup information in the appropriate character matchups.
• 3) Try to do minimal subjective rating of each option. Subjective rating is not the purpose of the guide.
  • Objective rating is fine and desired! For instance, WD into Forward Smash is a slower option than dashing into a JC'd grab. Try not to say better or worse; just slower and faster, more damaging, etc.
• 4) Avoid saying "this leads into this and this and this." That is the purpose of constructing a Tree of options - players can follow the tree and see what leads to what. However, event specific things are fine, such as DI options that lead to odd combos (like a weak fair -> uair off the stage).
• 5) Eventually we want to cover all DI and options from every position. Feel free to add techniques that you don't see listed! For instance, Nair has two hits, and my guide has listed only Nair as an option, whereas Nair (only first hit connects) and Nair (both hits connect) have different options connected with them, so these sections need to be added. --Technomancer 08:21, August 6, 2006 (GMT)

Ah, gotchya. You see, I didn't know what it was you were planning to do in those sections. I just thought you wanted all the possible uses for the technique but since you didn't fill anything out yet, I wasn't sure how I was supposed to articulate the move's usefulness. That's why I decided to test the waters by adding that line. Also, the nutmeg and bop were kinda unclear. It took me a while to understand what you mean by "Same as above." And options for grabs/aerials seemed kinda pointless. >_> They more or less just pointed out what his throws and aerials are. We should also work on formatting this better since it's not very pretty at the moment, and it's a bit hard to follow.--Mr Ng 02:29, August 7, 2006 (GMT)

Wow, this option tree is a pretty ambitious project. I might decide to back it, though it might be better a collective effort by Smashboardians or GameFAQers than something that develops on a Wikipedia article. But hey, this site does not follow the strict guidelines of Wikipedia, so an options tree is feasible. I'll see what I can add. MaskedMarth 02:45, September 13, 2006 (GMT)

Hmm...kewl. Perhaps we can do a little better at Pros and Cons. One-liners really don't evoke the complicated character that Captain Falcon is. I don't know SmashWiki's original research policy, but at least we can use SOME analysis? MaskedMarth 23:35, August 2, 2006 (GMT)

Falcon is a bit of a novelty though, so it's kinda hard to pin his exact nature down even with a full out paragraph. The only character who's high tier and doesn't counter anyone yet is able to win consistently is probably the biggest proof of this. I'd help you with any analysis if you want, but how detailed do you want the info to be?

Well, saying that Falcon "may be the best dashdancer in the game" and has "high power Smashes" and that he "counters no one" (which is an exaggeration that I've probably contributed to, by saying that Falcon is "countered by all of low tier" - but Falcon really does have Bowser's number and does positive in most low-tier battles) really tells us very little about Falcon's advantages and disadvantages.

Better that we cite pros and cons that are specific enough to tell us something about Falcon (Aerial combos or Nair and Uair-based combos), while at the same time being broad enough to have an obvious bearing on the matchup.

If this were the Sheik article, a great pro that would fit both criteria would be "a down throw that is guaranteed to chain throw some characters for stretches of 40 to 50% damage, and can otherwise combo into other launchers like forward tilt." Ding. You know exactly what down throw does, and you also know that it can have a huge bearing on the match, being a comboing machine.

Captain Falcon doesn't have as many juicy aspects, but being a pretty literal character it's not very hard either. For instance, he's a good comboer. But how exactly can he combo? With down throw as a launcher, neutral aerial and up aerial as further continuers and launchers, and the threat of knee as a finisher. Consolidate that into a paragraph, and you have an excellent pro point. Falcon's disadvantages are even easier - fast-falling means he's easily comboed by everyone; a poor up B means he can be edge-guarded very easily, thereby dying at low damage; the lack of a projectile, and his lackluster close game, prevent him from launching a very strong approach (though his speed largely makes up for it). Comprehensive information like this is a lot more useful than "Fastfaller (can be good and bad)." You can't even tell which column it falls under, from that description, and it gives us no idea of HOW falling quickly does good things and bad things. MaskedMarth 23:06, August 3, 2006 (GMT)

I see your point, but I think that those kinds of details are meant mroe for the article than the bullet pointed pros/cons. I felt that what we were supposed to do is to list (as clearly as possible, sorry if I failed on that :( ), the good and the bad of each individual character with concise, short phrases while we spend time elaborating on how the pros and cons mesh together in the character's article. However, I also don't think we should try and make the Smashwiki into a huge faq where we every available combo setups a character has and what percents we deal with. Instead, I think that at the end of every character's profile, we need to add atleast two links: A faq and a video compendium. To me, the wiki should only be a brief reference tool. If a player wishes to know more, we should provide links and let them find out accordingly. --Mr Ng 02:02, August 4, 2006 (GMT)

If we want the pro/con to be a most general, concise listing, then we cut out the evidence and leave the conclusion. No sissy explanation, just say that Captain Falcon combos well and dies fast. It would be quick and usable, and a handy reference if you need to know about how your Captain Falcon game should pan out.

If, on the other hand, you want a reference to Captain Falcon's statistics, then the section loses its value as a pro/con listing, and we should change the header to "statistics" or something of that flavor. MaskedMarth 02:35, August 4, 2006 (GMT)

MaskedMarth, I posted my response at MBM. >_> --Mr Ng 05:44, August 4, 2006 (GMT)

Look, it's just a start, this site is stil in it's infantcy. What you need to realize, however, not everyone who comes to this site is going to understand (or even want to understand) the advanced concepts of the game. If there were only extremely advanced people on this site, there wouldn't be a need for Smash Wiki, right? Right. If you think something needs to be more complex, please be my guest and do it! Just don't forget that basics are important. Oddeven2002 05:53, August 4, 2006 (GMT)

Overview

Great job on the overview Technomancer, but I think we need to add something here regarding Falcon's approach strategies. Falcon's approach game is one of the most crucial parts of playing a good Falcon, and there are a lot of bad habits surrounding it. You'll see a tendency with beginning players to just charge and spam Knees hoping that one will hit or using Raptor boosts at the wrong time or Double jumping into Dairs all over the place. We've got to make sure we tell players what moves are the most useful in approaches, to be more patient to pull off counterattacks after dashdances, and to be ready to jump when the opponent makes a mistake.

I think a super neat thing to do would be to create an options tree. Kinda like, we do each of Falcon's moves, which trees into the possible results, which then trees into options from there, (high-knockback, low-knockback, shielded, whiffed). Some trees would return to other moves (for instance, re-grab and d-air), but some would continue into stuff like Full Jump Uair, etc. The tree could be further refined into specific characters.

Be alot of text, but it would make C.F.s everywhere much better.

I'm doing something at GameFAQs with a similar goal. I've found that way too little attention is given, by guides and the like, to the approach, whether for Captain Falcon or for anybody. This is evidenced in the ownage videos that show flashy combos and kills, and the fact that the Japanese are consistently better than the Americans, not because of "mindgames" but because of a smarter approach. Information on the approach would be invaluable to budding Falcon players. MaskedMarth 02:19, August 5, 2006 (GMT)

the new setup

Wait, I'm confused at what's going on here at the moment.

Yeah that was me... I think I'm gonna take it out... or move it to a section called "Technical Knowledge Base". --Technomancer 04:17, August 6, 2006 (GMT)

"C.Falcon doesn't counter anyone"

I took this part out since theres no official thing that says it and theres too many things that vary to base this on. -user:shogun

Cleanup tag

I'm not sure what the tag is trying to say.....should we use passive voice, or should we avoid it? Make that clear. It would seem weird to me for somebody to recommend passive voice, but that's sometimes the only way to avoid "you" overuse. --MaskedMarth 17:37, January 17, 2007 (GMT)

¿Què?

What's Shield Dashing? Sorry if it's an old technique, but it doesn't sound familiar. NeonCrusader 14:21, October 27, 2007 (EDT)

Oh nvm. It's holding the shield button while wavedashing, right? NeonCrusader 14:31, October 27, 2007 (EDT)