Talk:Joker (SSBU)

We've already got Robin, and we just got Joker....why do I feel like we're missing someone?152.26.211.26 04:22, 31 December 2018 (EST)

What? Batman? SeanWheeler (talk) 00:09, 1 January 2019 (EST)

This is not proper use of talk pages. Please refrain from these types of edits. JamesHeart 00:59, 1 January 2019 (EST)

Moveset

Where did they reveal he can wall jump and has a neutral rapid jab? 99.203.128.19 14:50, 5 January 2019 (EST) (preceding comment was by a signed out aykrivwassup)

It was datamined, apparently. The Twitter link showing the datamined content was mentioned in the edit summaries but wasn't added to the article. JamesHeart 00:10, 6 January 2019 (EST)

He is supposed to be faster than sonic. That is what I read from somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.178.29 (talk • contribs) 16:46, 5 February 2019 (EST)

Joker's Leaked Parameters

Is it really okay to put that stuff in the article?

For one thing, it's leaked content. Before the game's release, it was explicitly forbidden to add information from the leaked game or add framedata from pre-release demos, and I don't see how this is any different. Joker is under development and his framedata is subject to change.

What I believe is more damning for maintaining SmashWiki integrity is the fact that the data is not directly identified as "Joker", it's identified as "Jack". Now, "Jack" is obviously Joker (he's after "Packun" (Piranha Plant) and before "Brave"), but we don't know that for certain because it hasn't been officially confirmed. For all we know it could be Jack from MadWorld, or Raiden from Metal Gear Solid 2. Even if we're sure that it's Joker, we don't know how sure we can be and it's not the job of a wiki to take that chance.

With all this in mind, I'm probably going to make an account and start reverting the changes on various articles that refer to Joker's stats, replacing "Joker" with "Jack" and putting a footnote explaining the leak and the fact that "Jack" is generally believed to be Joker.

I'll wait a few days to do this, if nobody has any objections. 132.170.60.245 23:20, 9 February 2019 (EST)

Leaked content in the form of textual information and screenshots was allowed to be added on the wiki. You may have confused this with the prohibition of hosting extracted files, like artwork or music, until the game's official release.

The guidelines over specific values were in effect to twart speculation from pre-release footage, such as the demo at E3, and doesn't apply to games already released and datamined, as far as I'm aware, despite being subject to change.

A brief mention of Joker's believed stats being under the "Jack" name could be added, if only to avoid any confusion over the names found in the datamine itself. Nokii — 00:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)

What I meant as a problem with including leaked parameters is that it's being used as though it's a set-in-stone fact that Joker's dashing speed will be so-and-so and his weight will be this-and-that, with editors even going as far as to put this information in the charts in those articles even though we don't know FOR SURE that it's even the character we think it is. To be clear, I have no problem with datamining (that Dash article could do with some datamined info, actually). I just have an issue with when datamining is used as a vector for speculation about unreleased, unknown content.

What it comes down to is that even though Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is released, the character Joker is not. Therefore, datamined parameters of him (even from a released video game) technically constitutes a leak of in-game content. And I definitely remember a sitewide banner that prohibited adding information that could only be obtained from the leaked version of the game like World of Light and specific numeric character parameters. This is different from leaked text and screenshots (like Ken) which are mostly relegated to the leak and rumor articles anyway. Even with this leaked data, it's been removed as of 2.0.0 so for all we know it could already be outdated. Therefore, putting the data in the Joker article in this way -- in a section titled "Moveset", as if the stats will be this way upon release -- is speculation.

If Joker's stats are to be included in SmashWiki, I think the most responsible, informative way that would cause the least confusion would be to add a line to Joker's Trivia section that

• mentions the leak,
• mentions that Joker's believed stats are listed under a codename ("Jack"),
• footnote links to the Twitter thread and the corresponding section in List of rumors, and
• stipulates that the data is subject to change as it belongs to an unreleased character.

The Twitter thread is more comprehensive and organized anyway. It's also worth bringing up that 2.0.0 removed the leaked data, including Jack's stats. 132.170.62.236 23:04, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Joker's Dash Speed

If his dash speed has been updated in a recent patch, can some change the source referenced to one that shows the new speed? JamesHeart 01:01, 16 February 2019 (EST)

Though the Jack files were removed in 2.0.0, I feel a change in speed would be worth documenting. CardboardLuigi (talk) 12:23, 16 February 2019 (EST)

Joker's datamined values

Because I apparently came off as a dick with my revert, allow me to make a case for why the datamined values should stay off the page: they're bound to change. The user who removed it is absolutely right; Piranha Plant is full proof that data values can be mined out and revealed to the public (despite how many people don't want to see it and actually be surprised by something), but still change in the end. Where's the third jump? Where's the slow dash speed? Both of those were changed before the character came out. Furthermore, it's not exclusive to Ultimate; remember when Ryu and Dream Land were datamined? Ryu had the OG SFII victory theme, and Dream Land had an entirely different alternate track, and both got changed in the end. Datamined information before it's released is the same as beta elements in a video game. Putting anything that specific on a page like this (and also putting it under the implication that it's fact) is speculation outright. Aidan, the Irish Rurouni 17:00, 3 March 2019 (EST)

Before SSBU came out, we disallowed images and technical information that were only obtainable via datamined leaks. This should be no different. Toomai Glittershine The Irrepressible 17:53, 3 March 2019 (EST)