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Dr. Mario and Mario in SSB4

Are these two clones or semi-clones? They have different down special and down aerial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zrksyd (talk • contribs) 11:03, 9 November 2014 (EST)

Sakurai called him a clone and he has more cloned moves than Melee Ganondorf, he's a clone, but if you want to argue it, go ahead, there are arguments for it on the third archive of this page, don't argue there though. Also, sign with 4 tildes (~~~~) Laikue (talk | contribs) 11:43, 9 November 2014 (EST)

Having two different moves doesn't stop you from being a clone if the entire rest of your moveset is the same. I made a compilation on this page if you want to know more. Toomai Glittershine The Chilled 12:04, 9 November 2014 (EST)

Dr. Mario's not a clone, since he has one major difference that makes him a semi-clone!Nintenzilla (talk) 16:49, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

You completely disregarded what Toomai said one post above you. One or two "major" differences is not significant enough to matter if the majority of his moveset is the same. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

In addition, Dr. Mario is officially recognized by the developers as a clone in multiple ways. No argument. Toomai Glittershine The Honcho 17:46, 5 May 2015 (EDT)\

Huh, how is Captain Falcon considered a Samus clone? They're nothing alike! Right?Nintenzilla (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Yes, hence why on that particular page, Captain Falcon is marked in the "non-clone" category. Stop jumping to conclusions without reading everything. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Why I am offended! You're jumping to conclusions too you arguementetist! I was just asking a question, no need to be harsh!Nintenzilla (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Hey, easy. Nobody's trying to be hostile toward you. They're just trying to help you out. It couldn't hurt to read a little bit further before automatically assuming something. Bulbaboy (talk) 22:05, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Huh, I guess you're right! Sorry about that, anyway, back to before, it's kind of strange since Brawl de-cloned all the characters yet Dr. Mario is still a clone? Is that not a little odd?Nintenzilla (talk) 22:08, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

Kirby and Ike

My little sister pointed this out for me. In Brawl, Kirby and Ike have the same up-special. Can I put this in semiclones? I am JigglyPurin. (talk) 12:28, 24 November 2014 (EST)

No. You need a whole lot more than one similar move to be a semi-clone. Toomai Glittershine The Inconceivable 12:31, 24 November 2014 (EST)

And plus, the two attacks function very differently. Aidan the Gamer 12:53, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Mario and Luigi

Ahem. I am The Master Hand. I am here to talk about Mario and Luigi. Come on you guys. they have WAY too many different moves to be considered Semi-Clones. I swear I even counted all the differences. They share at least 8 moves, and have at least 9 unique moves. Thoughts? The Master Hand—It's time. 18:04, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Here's what you're saying: Mario & Luigi have 17 moves each. They share 8 moves and have 9 unique moves each. That would be an 8:9 ratio, which out of 17 moves, 1/2 of the moves they have they share, while the other 1/2 are unique. That itself is almost a 1:2 ratio, so saying they're not semi-clones, by that logic, would be wrong. Rtzxy Reflect! 18:13, 29 November 2014 (EST)

I made a page on this topic. Basically, if Lucas is a semi-clone in Brawl (which he is, it's difficult to argue), so is Luigi in SSB4. Toomai Glittershine The Loony 18:17, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Also, this discussion has been made here before. See this page. Bulbaboy (talk) 18:36, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Hey guys... I recounted the moves. Luigi has 13 unique moves and 8 shared moves. Does that technically mean, since he has 5 more unique moves rather than non-unique moves, He would be considered a Non-Clone? Or at least a Semi-Semi-Clone? Hahahaha...ha...ha....ha. Uhm... Ok bye. The Master Hand—It's time. 11:53, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Going off of what Toomai says, Luigi has around 14 out of 23 moves shared. 14 divided by 23 is around 59%. Because 59 is above half but still below 75 (which I think any clone who's above that counts as a clone), Luigi is therefore a semi-clone. Nothing more. Aidan the Gamer 12:39, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Luigi was recently removed from the Smash Ult section as not being even a semi-clone. Is there a community consensus on that? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 09:14, 23 November 2018 (EST)

Roy (SSB4) more of a semi-clone?

Alot of his moves have seemingly different animations and properties compared to Marth (most notably his F-Smash, F-Air, D-Air, U-Tilt, Jab, Dash Attack). Though his specials are more or less the same aside from small differences in properties.

Are these changes enough to be "upgraded" to semi-clone? His moveset has about the same amount of differentiation that Toon Link has, who is classified as a semi.

Let's wait for Toomai's semi-official test to be sure. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 13:57, 14 June 2015 (EDT)

From what I've played, I'd say he's Semi-clone now. He hits a lot harder, his standard attack is a single hit like Ganondorf's and as said above, if Toon Link is the minimum of what's needed to be a semi then Roy passes. Besides, Clones are characters made with slight variations on existing characters while Semis have more work put into them. Roy is Luigi to Marth's Mario and Lucy's Dr. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 14:42, 14 June 2015 (EDT)

Also, Did you forget they have differents different walking animation and I think Link and Toon Link are more similar than Roy and Marth. Jf811 (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2015 (EDT)

Roy is most defiantly a semi-clone in this game. He has 9 attacks that are different from Marth; the same amount of differences Falco/Ganondorf have from Fox/Falcon have and more differences than Toon Link has who is ironically listed as a semi-clone. This needs to be changed.

Also, I think Roy has longer range than Marth interms of his sword but I need some back-up on that Guybrush20X6 (talk) 19:35, 16 June 2015 (EDT)

Semi-clone. On top of what was already mentioned, he has different movement physics; he falls faster and is generally less floaty than Marcina. b2jammer (talk) 10:50, 17 June 2015 (EDT)

We've already decided that he's a semi-clone from Toomai's testing. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 12:05, 17 June 2015 (EDT)

Regarding Echo Fighters

The recent reveal of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate debuted the term "Echo Fighter", which exclusively refers to characters that have incredibly minor differences from their original counterparts. For example, Lucina and Dark Pit are deemed Echo Fighters, but Dr. Mario isn't, despite originally being lumped up with them. Should this page be renamed Echo Fighter, or should it be made a separate page, while this one remains for semi-clones? MissingNumbers (talk) 00:28, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

I think it should be renamed. 73.45.30.142 12:54, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

We should wait to see what exactly the Echo characters are like first. But also remember that SmashWiki is not official, so if the term "clone" remains more popular even if they are synonyms, we will likely keep the page at "clone". TheNuttyOne 17:19, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Clone vs Echo

I'm not sure what the dividing factor is but from looking at footage, I think it's when there's a massive difference in move mechanics. Basically, if we need to do some testing to figure out what the difference is then they're an Echo. Not sure how Dr. Mario factors in but it looks like he got more unique moves in the transition (meteor stomp, heck yeah!). Question is, do we list the Semi-Clones still now that there's something offical going on? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 06:36, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Okay, going off of what we've seen so far, I think I've determined what qualifies a fighter as an Echo Character and what qualifies a character as just a plain old clone or semi-clone.

Out of all three Echo Characters thus far (Dank Pit, Lucina, and Daisy), they all have one thing in common; it seems virtually all their attack animations are 1-1 with their source character, and the differences in their movesets are extremely minimal. Meanwhile, the rest of the clones/semi-clones either have some different moves, or have enough differences that, even when sharing all animations, play quite differently (like Fox and Falco in Melee). This is why characters like Pichu, while still appearing to be a full clone, is not classified as an echo character.

I think that echo character is simply the next level underneath clones. Echo characters means characters that are basically completely 1:1 with their source character (barring victory animations, taunts, and potentially final smashes), both in terms of animations and gameplay, with extremely minimal or at times bordering on almost no differences at all.

So, I classify it like this:

Unique Character ↪ Semi-clone ↪ Clone ↪ Echo Character ↪ Alternate Costume character (like Alph and Koopalings).

So, I propose splitting it into three categories; semi-clones, clones, and echo characters.173.79.196.33 17:03, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Fair enough, though I think we shoul reserve the term Echo Characters only for those that are officially called as such. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

I'm of the opinion that we should call "echo character" an official term of "clone character" and then not use it (unless someone has an official source mentioning clone characters?) Serpent  King 17:19, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Generally in agreement with SK, although it wouldn't hurt to point it out on the pages for Dark Pit, Lucina, and Daisy since they're explicitly labeled as such. But yes, it does seem to be a case similar to ukemi/tech where a formal term is introduced long after the more well-known term, and doesn't really supersede it. I think the only hiccup is the lack of specificity on what qualifies as an echo fighter versus just a related moveset - Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Pichu aren't listed as echo fighters, for example. Miles (talk) 17:22, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Since I already gave my theory above on the differences between clones and echo characters, I think the best thing to do now is wait for more Echo characters to be announced and then check to see if they all have Dark Pit/Lucina level differences before proceeding.173.79.196.33 18:09, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

I think I have a good distinction between Echo, clone and semi-clone, namely that clones are decided and developed separate from the main cast. An Echo is as descirbed, the same height, weight, move animations ect. ect., a clone is a character that has more differences than that (eg. SSB4 Dr. Mario) and was still developed separately from the main cast, Semi-clones are characters that are derived from others but were always part of the dev cycle. How's that work for everyone? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

Sure, that makes sense. Works for me.173.79.196.33 17:44, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

The article should be renamed. This is not like tech/ukemi, because one is a technical detail that casual players don't pay attention too, and the other is a heavily publicized fact of newcomer reveals in Ultimate so far. Going forward, people new to Smash who get involved are not going to know what clones are, only echoes. Watch YouTube videos and read Twitter posts; you'll see that casual Smash fans are familiarized with the concept of an echo, and even professional Smashers are using that term when discussing the game now. In a few months when the game comes out, this wiki will be the only place left using the old unofficial term, unless we change things. The only plausible argument for not renaming it would be because the term primarily applies only to one out of 5 Smash games (though it really applies to Smash 4, too), but even then, Echo Fighter should get its own article and clone should be a separate article that's primarily Melee-focused. SuperFalconBros (talk) 10:30, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

Until now we didn't have an official name for them and clone/semi-clone were just coined by the players. Nintendo has made it clear that there are two types of characters, echo fighters and non-echo fighters, therefore, "semi-clones" should be omitted and we can simplify down to just these two (rename all characters classified as "clones" to "echo fighters"). A separate section addressing characters with similar movesets (semi-clones) can be included but their character pages already make those distinctions. Nergal06 (talk) 11:28, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

And besides, with Chrom and Dark Samus getting revealed with differences that previously thought would disqualify someone as an Echo, maybe this page should be moved. SeanWheeler (talk) 12:17, 22 August 2018 (EDT)

Regarding Marth and Lucina

While it's a little early to assume, it has been observed that Marth's neutral B now tilts slightly upward while Lucina's is still straight. This has been show several times on his page's video and the direct aswell. Should this be added beforehand and then confirmed once his character page gets updated?

179.100.111.55 08:57, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Cross Generational Clones

Should we remove this because Y. Link and T. Link are both in SSB5? --96.245.186.209 09:32, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

Wolf and Ganondorf

By this point, why is Wolf a foot note that essential says 'don't bring this argument up' but Ganondorf is still listed as a semi-clone in SSBU after getting new smashes. Is there a ratio of cloned to non-cloned moves one should have before they qualify? And does it make a difference if cloned moves are specials or normals? Wolf is still very clearly developed off of Fox as a base and is treated as such by way of Special Moves (even getting the same Final Smash change in SSBU) despite having all different Normals.

Ganondorf also has most of Falcon's Specials as a base, but also has very few if any fully cloned animations, and practically no cloned functions from Falcon's Normal moves anymore. Furballcan (talk) 00:06, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

Ganondorf does still pull a few moves from Falcon, unlike Wolf who is more different from Fox than Falco is. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 00:09, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

I'm inclined to say some of the supposed clones/semi-clones should be removed since we know so little about how they play; we don't know how clone-y they will be. Luigi and Ganondorf in particular were already barely semi-clones in Brawl and Smash 4 and seem to have even more differences now. TheNuttyOne 00:27, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

I still think Luigi and Wolf should be listed as clone characters, Luigi has Mario's up tilt now, but Ganondorf having significantly different traits and a body frame should discount him. Wolf even has some Fox moves now as he didn't before. Wolf's specials are also clearly based on Fox's specials. --Memoryman3 (talk) 09:11, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

Richter and Simon

Isn't it a bit hasty to say "Richter's differences are purely cosmetic"? I know Sakurai stated in the direct that "their strengths are the same" or something to that extent, but that just sounds like typical PR speak for clones. Hinata2000100 (talk) 11:48, 9 August 2018 (MST)

Strongly agreed. "No confirmed gameplay differences" ≠ "confirmed to be no gameplay differences". Miles (talk) 01:54, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

The direct mentioned that his look, voice and animations set him apart, but his strength is the exact same. This is in contrast to say someone like Daisy, where her moves behave differently plus she has different character traits. Sakurai usually tells us in advance about how clones are different. --Memoryman3 (talk) 14:23, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

Even if taken very literally, there's plenty of open-endedness for things like knockback angles, character weight/fall speed, etc. There's zero harm in leaving it open-ended. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Miles (talk) 15:01, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

I understand Sakurai stated "their strengths are the same", but like I said, that just sounds like PR speak for clones. We don't know what Richter's final smash is, we don't know how much damage his attacks do relative to Simon's, we don't know if there are even minute hitbox/knockback differences... There's just way too much unknown to say for a fact that "their differences are only aesthetic". Hinata2000100 (talk) 17:25, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

Sakurai talked about how Dark Pit/Pit and Lucina/Marth were separated due to their different strengths here. Last time he said strengths were identical it was explaning the alternate costumes such as Wii Fit Trainer. The Japanese blog post also states that his attacks (not basic body skill like Daisy) are the same as Simon's, but with slight gesture (animation) differences. I am extremely confident that Richter has zero gameplay differences from Simon. --Memoryman3 (talk) 09:08, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

That is not 100% confirmed. You are unreasonably and unnecessarily jumping to conclusions. There's zero harm in leaving it open-ended until we know for sure. Miles (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

Official name for clones

Since now they've officially given the clones a name (Echo Fighters), shouldn't we change the page's name to the official name (Echo Fighters) and make the previous name (clones) a redirect? --Metalex123 (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

Read 5 sections up Serpent  King 21:07, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

Yes Crocodile Dippy 2 (talk) 10:53, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Isabelle

She has some moves similar to Villager, such as Pocket and a balloon-based recovery. I'm hesitant on adding her to the semi-clones because she doesn't seem like a semi-clone, however she could just be a "Luigi's as a clone of Mario" clone. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

Well Isabelle has a brand new move and her planting move is completely different in function along with her bucket attack. I'd say that qualifies her for at least a Lucas level Semi-clone. Ironic that this page gets protected just before something big goes down. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 20:53, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

I don't think she's a clone at all. Rather than list her differences as SerpentKing requested, I'm going to list their similarities:

• Pocket
• Dash attack involves throwing a pot (except it's not a plant pot)
• Grabbing with a bug net
• Neutral Aerial appears to be similar.
• Balloon Trip, but with animal-shaped balloons and a bench
• Final Smash

That's all I can find to be identical, but everything else appears to be completely different. Unowninator (talk) 21:12, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

"Down Smash" seems to be the same, but with water buckets instead. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:15, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

It doesn't bury foes though, so I fail to see how it's different from the down smashes of say, Little Mac, Ganondorf, Mii Gunner, Ike, and several others. Unowninator (talk) 21:18, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

Prose for the table:

"Isabelle seems to share physics and several moves with Villager, such as Pocket as her neutral special. Her dash attack is seemingly the same, but has her drop a jar instead of a potted plant. Similarly, her Final Smash seems to have an identical function to Villager's, but features town hall from Animal Crossing: New Leaf rather than a house. Her up special has her sit on a bench lifted by two bunny-shaped balloons as opposed to Villager wearing a helmet with two normal balloons attached. However, she also has several unique moves, including: a move where she swings a broom overhead, a move where she uses a popper, a move where she erects a stop sign, a move where she plants Lloid as a sort of landmine that triggers when an opponent steps on it, an aerial move where she swings two pom-poms over her head, a move where she splashes water from a bucket on either side of her, and a move where she uses a fishing rod to grab and throw opponents."

TheNuttyOne 22:02, 13 September 2018 (EDT)

I agree with Nutta. We should put his description in there, and then change it when/if changes are necessary, when we know more about Isabelle and get the chance to play as her. 72.133.91.93 08:27, 14 September 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

I think at this point we need a new name for characters like Wolf and Isabelle (Maybe Luigi too) where they are very obviously derived from another character but have so many changes that they can't be called a clone. (not without all of Smashwiki trying to bite your head off for it anyway.) Guybrush20X6 (talk) 07:58, 17 September 2018 (EDT)

Isabelle can’t really be considered a semi clone. She shares less moves with Villager than entirely unique moves that have radically different functions. Her physics are highly likely to be altered too considering that’s part of balancing a character fully. For comparison, all 4 special moves for Wolf have similar operation methods to Fox. Luigi also shares a lot of frame data with Mario. --Memoryman3 (talk) 04:24, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

'Semi-clone is a term used for characters who share some of their moveset with another character, with some similarity in physics, but have enough differentiating moves and characteristics that calling them a "clone" wouldn't be entirely accurate.'

She has 6-7 shared moves, more than you list for Wolf, and we list other highly diverging characters already. I also don't know why you'd expect their physics to significantly diverge, but either way it's speculative. I think she should remain on the list, but moreover I think the edit warring over her inclusion and removal needs to stop. – Emmett 06:09, 24 September 2018 (EDIT)

Isabelle’s shared moves are Grab (likely different properties), Dash Attack (most likely functions differently), Pocket (most likely a different formula) . The Final Smash has a similar animation but the building is clearly different and it has a larger explosion radius. Everything else is so drastically different in basic function and frame data even at a low level of play, whilst if you play Fox you can vaguely get a feel for Wolf. Also, the reason why I expect Villager and Isabelle’s physics to diverge is due to balancing out her moveset and how functionally different they are, even more so than the other semi clones. If Wolf isn’t listed, Isabelle shouldn’t either. A footnote about her shared moves can be added. --Memoryman3 (talk) 11:53, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

... and now the page is protected. ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 16:51, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

Memoryman3 isn't right about Echo Fighters in Ultimate.

Memoryman3 is at it with the Echo Fighter nonsense. He constantly cites this press release from the Japanese Nintendo website which includes a definition appended to the "Echo Fighter" clones Chrom, Dark Samus and Richter that says "The basic parameters such as attack power, dizzying power, walking, running speed, jumping power, weight, etc. are about the same fighter for the original fighter" according to Google Translate, or "The basic parameters such as attack power and knockback power, walking, running speed, jump height, weight, etc. are about the same as the original fighter." according to Memoryman3's translation.

Furthermore, the article (as well as the Echo Fighter definition) was written by "Planning Department Hiro P," according to Google Translate, rather than Sakurai himself. This "Planning Department Hiro P" is likely a lower-level employee who possesses no knowledge of the actual development process behind the characters (or semi-clones) beyond the information presented in the Direct, and is likely speculating based on what he knows about the clones based off of Dark Pit and Lucina in Smash 4, who seem to perfectly fit the definition.

It is unknown if this definition fully applies to all Echo Fighters, but MM3 thinks otherwise (heck, he even thinks Richter, plays identically to Simon, based off Japanese PR-speak info on Richter and MM3's claim that the English info is a mistranslation), and tries to use this definition as an excuse to justify Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu not being Echoes (he falsely labels them as semi-clones, despite those characters possessing fewer differences than the likes of Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco, Roy, Lucas and Toon Link in Smash 4) when it is most likely due to them being Melee veterans. In fact, Memoryman3's interpretation of the definition prevents any of the Melee clones in their initial appearances (possibly barring Dr. Mario due to his near-identical physics) from being classified as Echo Fighters! Physics isn't what makes a clone a clone rather than a semi-clone, it's moveset similarity.

Therefore, I demand that my edits (found at User:Zakawer2/Clone) be applied to this article (and full protection be maintained as well). Zakawer2 (talk) 13:50, 21 September 2018 (EDT)

First, it is inappropriate to "demand" that edits be made to any mainspace content. The wiki is a community-driven, collaborative effort to document the game, and changes to articles should be based on editors' consensus. Strong feelings are not a substitute for that consensus. It is also inappropriate to suggest a page deserves protection due to disagreement with another user, particularly permanent protection; page protection is generally only suitable for high-visibility pages that are prone to vandalism, or to resolve temporary issues.

Second, looking at the difference between yours and Memoryman3's versions (seen here), I am somewhat confused as to what you are arguing for. In general, I am in favor of his edit; the descriptions of characters are better worded, less prone to bias, and contain fewer grammatical mistakes. Could you provide some clarity as to which parts specifically you are objecting to? – Emmett 15:10, 21 September 2018 (EDT)

I am mainly objecting to the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate section. He keeps on using that Echo Fighter definition from a Japanese press release that wasn't even written by Sakurai or someone directly involved in the game's development process, and claims that Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu's non-adherence to this definition is why they're not Echo Fighters. Zakawer2 (talk) 16:00, 21 September 2018 (EDT)

In the absence of further evidence, I think we should stick with what is officially confirmed, whether it's allegedly been written by a low-level employee or not. It was also my understanding that those designations exist in game, making them the definitive answer, but I could be mistaken on that point. – Emmett 19:31, 22 September 2018 (EDT)

Only two types of Clones

Just a friendly observation to hopefully reduce arguments. From a production standpoint there seem to be really only two kinds of clones.

• TYPE 1. Echoes, originally known as "model change" characters, share enough attributes with their parent fighter such that they're only balanced against them until they feel about equally viable pre-release. You save both a lot of development time, and a lot of playtest time (i.e. it would take ~55x the amount of playtest time for an unique fighter compared to an echo in 4. and ~70x the playtest time in Ultimate. They really are icing on the cake after the game is finished and not "stealing slots." You'd have to give the entire roster an echo to equal adding one unique newcomer)
  • This applies to Dr. Mario explicitly in Smash 4 (and is why he's in the echo fighter corner on the CSS), but is likely one of the core philosophies behind echo fighters that was carried forward (even if Doc stopped being an echo in Ultimate due to having even more differences). Source: https://smashboards.com/threads/sakurai-on-mii-fighters-dr-mario-and-duck-hunt.385210/
• TYPE 2. Characters that are "based on" another fighter to start, but end up being completely unique characters on the roster. i.e. you start with a certain fighter as a base, and tweak their moves, animations, proportions, attributes etc so much that they are unique enough to be tested against the rest of the roster. So you've saved some development time by using a parent(maybe a lot, maybe only a little depending), but have essentially a unique character and don't save any playtest time. These character are Clones.
  • This applies expressly to Isabelle, meaning it likely applies to everyone from Ultimate!Dr. Mario to Wolf. Source: http://www.japanesenintendo.com/post/178486295859

Pretty much "has a parent and only measured against their parent (and labeled as an echo)" and "has a parent but different enough to be measured against everyone."

Anything else is pure fan community stuff, and mostly arbitrary spectrums and thresholds of how many animations/moves/attributes are different from the parent, and headcanon about which differences matter more. Like it probably doesn't matter that Chrom has a different Up-Special from Roy if he was only tested to be about equal to Roy. And it probably doesn't matter that Wolf is more different to Fox than Falco if they were both tested against the entire roster. And it probably doesn't matter that we call the melee clones Full Clones, and the Brawl Clones Semi-Clones if in both cases all characters were tested against all other characters.

That's why Echos are actually 'new concept' that started as glorified costumes in Smash 4, and are legitimately distinct from all previous or future non-echo clones. And why Doc really should be Echo corner in Smash 4, and shouldn't have an epsilon in Ultimate. Furballcan (talk) 01:54, 27 September 2018 (EDT)

Yes I agree. Dr Mario is as much as a semi clone as someone like Falco or Roy because of this. Although I am hesitant to call Isabelle a semi clone because of her different frame and animations all being unique. With just a few moves borrowed. --Memoryman3 (talk) 06:28, 27 September 2018 (EDT)

In the column Sakurai uses Isabelle as an example stating that she's based off of Villager. Furballcan (talk) 00:47, 28 September 2018 (EDT)

I think he meant that some of Isabelle's moves look similar to Villager's, like the Pocket and Balloon Trip. So that made people think she's an Echo. However, with 100+ unique animations, a different skeleton/body frame, moves such as the Fishing Rod being completely new to Smash in terms of operation, and her frame-data not being reminiscent on Villager's at all, she doesn't seem like a semi-clone at all. Someone like Wolf is much closer. --Memoryman3 (talk) 06:25, 28 September 2018 (EDT)

@MM3: On one hand, Sakurai did say Wolf was similar enough to Fox to make moveset creation easier, and was why Wolf was chosen over Krystal. On the other, Isabelle shares more with Villager than Wolf does with Fox, so I fail to see your logic. Aidan, the Rurouni 08:10, 28 September 2018 (EDT)

All four of Wolf's specials are directly based off Fox's. Two of Isabelle's specials are completely different and one of them seems to have much different properties AND functionality. Her frame-data doesn't resemble the Villager's at all. Not to mention that Wolf has a similar body frame to Fox and in Brawl, shared all of the non attack animations except for the idle. Isabelle shares none of the animations or a body frame with Villager. She likely took as much work (if not more) and man hours as someone like K Rool or Ridley.

I propose that Isabelle gets taken off the semi-clones list and instead we put a footnote ala Wolf (in fact I would argue Wolf should be in the semi clone table instead of Isabelle). --Memoryman3 (talk) 11:10, 29 September 2018 (EDT)

There are only two tiers of clones. A fighter with a parent fighter they are based off of, but are different enough to be balanced against the whole roster (every full/semi/pseudo clone from Ultimate!Dr. Mario - Wolf/Isabelle). A fighter with a parent fighter and they are only balanced against their parent fighter (everyone labeled as an echo) Thats it. By calling someone a clone you're not saying they're exactly the same. You're saying that the clearly have a parent fighter. There's a lot a variance in the first type, but they are all ultimately unique characters that have a direct parent. Even if some are more distinct from that parent than others. Furballcan (talk) 03:06, 29 September 2018 (EDT)

Ganondorf in Ultimate

I propose that Ganondorf's section in the semi-clone category for Ultimate be removed simply because he's too different to Captain Falcon at this point to be considered one. Now you can make the argument that they do share quite a bit of attacks, but I'll have to counter this by stating that the only two attacks that are exclusive between them are only back aerial and down special. Every other seemingly shared move is also shared by at least one other character, whether old or new, and regardless of directional input.

Their neutral aerials are shared by Zero Suit Samus and Mii Brawler, who both have the similar animation and functionality tied to their forward aerials. Their up aerials are shared in either animation or function by a plethora of characters. Their down aerials, in animation or function, are shared with Rosalina and King K. Rool.

Even if you want to disregard the argument above, there's still the fact that the two characters, while sharing similar animations on multiple attacks, just have too many different properties to them to be considered a copy of each other's moves. My point is that two moves that are shared exclusively between two fighters does not make for a semi-clone categorization. The two characters themselves do not have that much in common anymore, so it's simply mind-boggling why Ganondorf is still considered a semi-clone at this point, which is why I'm asking to rescind his placement as one in the first place. Enigma (talk) 20:11, 29 September 2018 (EDT)

I oppose removing it until the actual game is out but I would like a new different to be added. Namely that Captain Falcon has a new forward Smash, adding a difference. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2018 (EDT)

Why is this fully protected?!

I don't want to be rude or anything but why the hell is the page fully protected for edit warring? I heard of semi protecting for edit warring, but why fully protect it?! Corrin Fan 03:48, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Because the people who were edit-warring are autoconfirmed users, and semi-protecting would not have solved the problem. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 06:49, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

I understand now, but why that long? It even goes to the day before Christmas. Usually edit wars have a cooldown at a few days, maybe a month at most. Corrin Fan 07:24, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Because (and trust me on this) the edit war will continue if it ends before then, and will only stop once Ultimate comes out. Aidan, the Spooky Rurouni 08:19, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Got it, but why extended it after the release date? Surely people would stop on December 7th. Corrin Fan 08:42, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

To be honest I'm not actually sure the edit warring will stop after release. I think there either (1) needs to be some discussion about what standards the wiki wants to use to define clones/semiclones/echo fighters, or (2) we need to just parrot what a reliable Smash source says if they do, because there are still frequent discussions about individual characters that are unlikely to be settled even once the game is out. That said I do think protection could expire a little closer to the release date (would still leave a few days' buffer, personally). – Emmett 10:53, 15 October 2018 (EDT)

Does this still need to be protected? I was about to add Ken and a trivia fact, but I can't because of it. ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 15:52, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

Ken

The Direct just confirmed Ken Masters is joining Smash as Ryu's echo. Someone add him! infernape612 11:59, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

Luigi is not a semi clone

Luigi is not a semi clone because he has completely different moves than Mario. Crocodile Dippy 2 (talk) 10:52, 10 December 2018 (EST)

He's been a semi-clone ever since Melee, Croc. The changes made to Mario in Smash 4 still apply to Luigi as well, even if his grabs and throw have been drastically changed. Plus, two of his moves (up tilt and forward tilt) were slightly recloned to resemble Mario's again, and he still has the same up and back aerial animations as Mario as well. File:SonicSpeed48ChristmasSig.pngSonic, the Cheerful Speedster 11:07, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Luigi's status as a semi-clone has been subject to debate since SSB4. If we look at his current moveset, he shares a similar neutral, back, and up air, forward and up tilt, up and down smash, and similar standard and up specials. Meanwhile, his jab, dash attack, down tilt, forward smash, forward and down aerial, side and down special, final smash all variation of his grabs, all throws, running and walking animations, helpless animation, idle animation, screen KO, character physics, and jumping animations are completely unique. Furthermore, some of his moves like Super Jump Punch have radically different properties that further distinguish him from his red counterpart. These differences put him more in line with Wolf. OldLink5 (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2018 (EST)

No I mean Luigi is not a semi clone in Ultimate, not in other games. Crocodile Dippy 2 (User talk: Crocodile Dippy 2) 19:18, 10 December 2018 (GMT)

Personnaly, they sould not be considered semi clone anymore, they have completely different moveset and property, Fox/Wolf share more than Mario/Luigi.Jf811 (talk) 11:53, 13 December 2018 (EST)

It is very difficult in general to draw the line at which a character is no longer a semi-clone. I have a project that attempts to do so, but until I can complete it, things should stay as they are for now. Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 10:45, 14 December 2018 (EST)

I think it's more straightforward that we think. Clones are characters like Daisy, or Richter, or Lucina, who share virtually all the main attributes, body frames, and attacks with their source, with a different visual design, maybe a few different animations sans taunts and victory poses, and MAYBE a few, minimal gameplay tweaks. So you don't really play them differently from their source. These clones are NOT balanced standalone.

For semi clones, it's any character who is based on, but with significant changes to either attributes, attacks, skeleton etc. I think Luigi, Wolf, Pichu, Dr Mario, Isabelle etc. all fall into this. With Dr Mario, his attributes and properties changed so much that playing him like regular Mario isn't viable, so he is basically a unique character in tier lists and strategies. Pichu doesn't share a single animation with Pikachu now despite it's basic moves having a passing resemblance. Wolf has similar special moves but many differences in his mechanics, even if he is based off Fox. These characters ARE balanced standalone.

Non clones are NOT directly based on another character. Rosalina for example isn't based off anyone. So is Palutena or R.O.B or Greninja, or Bayonetta. --SmashingAlbert (talk) 05:46, 15 December 2018 (EST)

Wolf in Ultimate

Sorry, if you're still going to list Lucas and Luigi in the Ultimate clone section, then you have to also list Wolf. The three of them are certainly a step above clones and semi-clones but it's pure favoritism to single out Wolf as special. He's still a character who has moves (all specials and final smash) clearly derived from another (Fox) and not anymore unique than either Luigi or Lucas compared to their original. 72.89.170.85

Agree, Mario/Luigi and Ness/Lucas are clearly now different from each other more than Wolf/Fox. Jf811 (talk) 10:38, 14 December 2018 (EST)

Please read the section on Wolf in Brawl; it explains that Wolf's relationship to Fox is very unclear and hard to compare under the rules that work for other characters. Until we have enough time/resources to determine whether this holds true for Ultimate, things will stay are they are. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 10:42, 14 December 2018 (EST)