Smasher talk:ZeRo

Vandalism

This page seems to get vandalized a lot. Do you think we should protect it for the sake of preventing that? Wikipedia does stuff like that, but I don't think I've ever seen a page on this wiki get protection for any reason other than being about an unreleased game. ♡FirstaLasto♥ 12:37, 8 January 2015 (EST)

question is, who's vandalizing it? (Smashworker101 (talk) 12:42, 8 January 2015 (EST))

Well I doubt it's always the same person (being that they always get banned), but it seems to occur at least once a month where either the entire page is replaced with nonesense or a bunch of nonsense is added to the page. ♡FirstaLasto♥ 12:43, 8 January 2015 (EST)

Whoever it is, they really hate this guy. But I think its the same guy, just with different IPs. You know, like sockpuppetry (Smashworker101 (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2015 (EST))

I don't think the vandalism of this page is chronic enough to warrant semi-protection as of this time. Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 13:10, 8 January 2015 (EST)

Then what type of vandalism suppose to be chronic enough? (Smashworker101 (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2015 (EST))

It's not something that can be determined easily; there's a lot of factors that can go into it. One very loose rule of thumb could be "if more recent edits are spent fixing the page rather than improving the page". Toomai Glittershine The Rainbow 13:31, 8 January 2015 (EST)

That does explain how it floods the recent changes though (Smashworker101 (talk) 13:52, 8 January 2015 (EST))

Wait a minute...

On their respective Smasher pages, it states Seagull Joe and Vinnie are the only players to have defeated ZeRo so far. However, ZeRo got 3rd at Sky's Smash 4 Invitational, so someone else must've beaten him. So... Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 12:16, 5 October 2015 (EDT)

They both say "in 2015". I think we basically consider 2014 to not count because it was too early. Zyrac (talk) 12:20, 5 October 2015 (EDT)

Well, yea, but the point still stands. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 12:24, 5 October 2015 (EDT)

To make a slight correction, it's also mentioned on Mr. ConCon's page that he beat ZeRo. On the subject of Sky's Invitational, by general consensus, most people typically don't include it for 3 reasons:

1. ZeRo was a Fox main at the time rather than a Diddy/Sheik main (he did have Sheik as a secondary at the time, though).

2. It was, essentially, a "Day 1 tournament", happening on the exact weekend that Smash Wii U was released.

3. The tournament happened way before his streak began (unless you count the pre-release Invitational as well).

Also, Mr. R and ESAM (the two players who actually beat him there) don't count Sky's Invitational against ZeRo's record either, so make of that as you will. It is a bit of a slippery slope, though, so maybe the wording could be slightly changed a bit. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 13:08, 5 October 2015 (EDT)

The fact that the trivia point includes the time frame "in 2015" makes me think it doesn't necessarily have to be reworded, I just thought that I'd point out what I noticed. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 19:55, 5 October 2015 (EDT)

Country

1. Why is "Chillan" listed as Zero's location if he lives in SoCal?
2. Why does he have the flag of Chile next to his name also if he in SoCal? That's like putting the flag of Argentina for HBox or putting the flag of China next to PewPewU's name (he was born in China if I'm not mistaken). Chilex (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2016 (EDT)

Because he passed most of his life in Chile. We could always mention he lives in SoCal though. -- BeepYou, a user with no grammar at all :v (talk) 17:03, 29 March 2016 (EDT)

Also, I feel like this assumes that he has not gained U.S citizenship yet and still retains Chilean citizenship since its his origin place despite his work being more known in the US. Dots (talk) The Saxaphone 19:50, 29 March 2016 (EDT)

This is the real reason. There has been no indication that ZeRo has obtained U.S. citizenship (and the last time I asked ZeRo, he confirmed that he isn't officially a citizen). If he does obtain it, then his country should definitely be changed to America. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 23:59, 29 March 2016 (EDT)

Placed first more than any other smasher?

In the trivia section, it says "ZeRo, across all games, has placed first the most out of any other smasher". Is this a verified statistic? It doesn't sound very likely that he has more firsts than mew2king, who used to travel to tons of regionals and enter every event. Also, it's not a well qualified statement since we don't know if it includes locals, etc. I advocate removing it all-together. 157.139.64.6 13:47, 31 May 2016 (EDT)

ZeRo's Shulk

So I'm not too aware of what happened at NCR 2015, but didn't he only play him in one R1 pools match, in a joking manner? Does that really warrant putting Shulk here as a character? Dimo (talk) 08:55, 22 November 2016 (EST)

That is true, I guess. I do know that ZeRo has considered using Shulk seriously in certain matches, though (he was thinking of trying to counterpick Kameme with Shulk at one point during his set with him, before deciding to go with Diddy Game 3), but perhaps it's not enough to warrant Shulk being listed for now. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 10:51, 22 November 2016 (EST)

Okay, I'll remove him for now. If he uses him as a serious counterpick or against a top player like Kameme then I'll have no objection to adding him back. Btw, about Salem, he went Samus in KTAR doubles and did pretty well (17th/121). He also mentioned that he finds dubs very hard, so I thought he actually tried when using her. What is your opinion on that? Maybe I jumped the gun there, idk Dimo (talk) 13:32, 22 November 2016 (EST)

I looked into it a bit and according to M2K (a fellow teammate of Salem's on MVG), Salem does use Samus seriously. I'll add her back. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 13:44, 22 November 2016 (EST)

I'm trying to avoid engaging in edit warring here. Once and for all - Do we want to have Shulk down as an SSB4 character for this guy or not? Black Vulpine (talk) 10:38, 10 April 2017 (EDT)

Best Diddy Kong in the world?

I ever ask why this page doesn't mention ZeRo as best Diddy Kong in the world. As far as I know, he defeated Zinoto and other players in Diddy Dittos. ZeRo also pushed Diddy's options more than other smasher. User:Nesu 01:04, 31 January 2017 (GMT)

Being the best in the world doesn't make him the best Diddy. He mostly goes off of others' metagame advancements. What makes him as a player so good is that he has the best neutral game in the world, able to adapt on the spot. —S+ Tier (List) | 19:10, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

"Being the best in the world doesn't make him the best Diddy. He mostly goes off of others' metagame advancements."

This is untrue. ZeRo has contributed heavily to the Diddy Kong metagame, as both he and other top Diddy players can attest to. Also, his results with solo Diddy are far better than anyone else's, so I can't possibly picture how anyone else's could be better. Even Zinoto will say that ZeRo's Diddy is the best. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 19:27, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

Let's take Falco from Melee as an example. Westballz has the best and most technical Falco in the world, but PPMD had the reputation of being a god in Melee because he as a player would masterfully control space rather than doing this in neutral: [1] —S+ Tier (List) | 20:06, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

And advancing the metagame of a character doesn't automatically make a player the best at using said character. —S+ Tier (List) | 20:07, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

Who WOULD be the best then? Who has numerous wins on almost every single top player and has won that many tournaments with Diddy Kong? Zero has by far the best results and the best wins with Diddy Kong. That makes him the best Diddy Kong. He pretty much solo mains him at this point, and still has ridiculous results. Diamond444 (talk) 20:14, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

In what world does having the best solo results with a character not equal being the best player of that character? Nevermind said being best in the world. How the hell is this arguable? Omega Tyrant 20:16, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

"Westballz has the best and most technical Falco in the world, but PPMD had the reputation of being a god in Melee because he as a player would masterfully control space rather than doing this in neutral."

Westballz being a better Falco than PPMD was never the general consensus when PPMD was actively playing. Prior to 2015, the two best Falco players were widely considered to be him and Mango. Also, PPMD is a dual main; ZeRo isn't (at least not anymore). No Diddy player is outperforming ZeRo in tournament with Diddy nor do they have better wins than him.

"And advancing the metagame of a character doesn't automatically make a player the best at using said character."

I agree with this, but you were the one who initially brought this up. What matters is results, which ZeRo has in spades. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 20:21, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

"...but you were the one who initially brought this up"

...ummm, did I? —S+ Tier (List) | 20:39, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

"Being the best in the world doesn't make him the best Diddy. He mostly goes off of others' metagame advancements."

Perhaps it was not your intention, but the way this was phrased seemed to imply that ZeRo's success with Diddy came from others' contributions to the metagame rather than his own. That's more or less the only reason I mentioned it to begin with. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

Every top player contributes to their characters' metagame, but some contribute more than others. That in turn makes it so that the other top players have to follow suit. ZeRo is no exception: he has had to learn what Mr. R found out about Sheik, for example, and Diddy Kong is no different.

Even if my examples aren't the best, the point I'm trying to make is that there is a difference between having the best neutral game in the world and having the most proficiency at a character. ZeRo having results with Diddy Kong doesn't make him the best Diddy Kong. This may have been the case with his pre-patch Sheik because no one had the mobility like he did with them, but Mr. R was always a contender for the best Sheik. In fact you can argue that Zinoto has a better Diddy Kong than ZeRo because of his braver, more fluid playstyle.

I think up there you may have the assumption that there is a definitive best Diddy Kong. But there are contenders, like with Peach (SSB4).—S+ Tier (List) | 03:21, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

Peach doesn't have a player that consistently places top 3 at almost every tournament he/she enters. It's all about results and wins as a solo main of said character. Zero has those (playing almost exclusively Diddy Kong), so he's the best. Diamond444 (talk) 09:23, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

That's not the point. Peach just a while ago had contenders, meaning several of her solo mains could be argued for being the best. Same with Marth, which recently we all decided it was Leo.

Furthermore, it doesn't follow that having results with a character also makes them the best because that's only half the picture. —S+ Tier (List) | 13:50, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

Results are the most important factor in determining the best player. You can argue that Zinoto has the best "playstyle" (which is entirely subjective) when it comes to Diddy all you want, but his results (which are objective) aren't backing that up whatsoever. ZeRo has a winning record over almost every single player with Diddy. He's won more major tournaments with Diddy than Zinoto has (who hasn't won anything outside of regionals). ZeRo has been outplaced by Zinoto a grand total of two times out of the course of a 2+ year old game. It's not even arguable: ZeRo is the best Diddy. Zinoto himself has stated that ZeRo is the best Diddy in the world.

The "ZeRo isn't the best Diddy, he just has the best neutral" argument is also incredibly flawed, considering neutral is very important when it comes to how good you are with your character. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

If the two were relatively close in results and wins, I could give water to the argument, but they just aren't. Diamond444 (talk) 14:32, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

*cough*Nairo*cough* —S+ Tier (List) | 22:22, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

You're derailing the argument from the original intention because you don't have any other evidence to prove your point. That's a false equivalency. We're not arguing Nairo, we're arguing ZeRo. Diamond444 (talk) 22:30, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

Ok, so at this point, you are arguing for the sake of being difficult with us and wasting our time. The fact is this: ZeRo consistently gets the best results with Diddy, so he's the best Diddy. It really does not get much simpler than that. Pick your battles, because I have yet to see anyone agreeing with you here. Serpent King 22:30, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

Can I talk on this? Nairo isn't by no means close to ZeRo on wins of a major. ZeRo has won one innumerable times, and when he doesn't make it to Top 8 (which is extremely rare), Nairo not always wins. Also, it is general consensus for a huge part of the community that ZeRo is the best Diddy Kong player in terms of results. The fact he arguably has the best neutral game of anybody in the world makes it very hard for players to break through him. ZeRo was also one of the very few players that pushed Diddy's metagame when he was nerfed, and didn't drop him. He was considered a dual Sheik/Diddy main. Hence, he's one of the original Diddy players. While Zinoto is technically one of the original ones, too, he was not considered as a very strong player until TBH5 and GENESIS 3, because he never traveled to tournaments.

Zinoto has outplaced ZeRo so little times in tournaments and he has not won a major. One more thing is that he had not made it to top 16 at a major since CEO 2016. Zinoto plays a good neutral and does things ZeRo doesn't, yes. But he doesn't have that mentality to adapt to a player's style in a few minutes. ZeRo's neutral is way ahead of him. And you wanna know something? Diddy Kong is all about the neutral game. If you don't have strong fundamentals including a very strong neutral game, you're not cut out for Diddy. Zinoto's neutral game is slightly worse than ZeRo because the latter always goes for the safest options and has excellent mindgames. Zinoto lacks the good mindgames ZeRo does. That's why, despite Zinoto doing things ZeRo doesn't, such as fancy combos and banana setups and all that stuff, he always comes in second place for best Diddy Kong in the world. In fact, him agreeing he isn't the best Diddy and that ZeRo is, is also the catalyst for the argument of "ZeRo is the best Diddy Kong player in the world".

If you have a bias for Zinoto being the best Diddy Kong player because he goes for fancy crap, alright, I can respect that, even if your opinion isn't the right one. Everybody has their opinion. But if you're gonna make it public when the general consensus is a different thing, then I suggest to back off and avoid these types of discussions that create nothing but problems. Everybody hates bigots, so don't come here and act like one when you're obviously not going to convince us of your opinion being right. And btw, lemme finish this by saying: considering this is an article about a competitive player, and that most copetitive players believe in tier lists, your username then makes no sense, and you shouldn't really be talking here when you're making clear competitive gaming isn't your forte. -- BeepYou (talk) 22:45, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

Who is the better player? The one who wins more and loses less under equal conditions. Who wins more often against better competition and who loses less often against worse competition with Diddy Kong? Unarguably Zero. Again in what world does being the better performing player across all metrics not equal being the better player? And where is there any sort of serious contingent in the community that actually tries arguing Zinoto to be the better Diddy? Omega Tyrant 23:11, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

I'll end my side of the conversation with this (as the entire thread went downhill to the unproductive as soon as someone said the non-argument I'm "arguing for the sake of being difficult with us and wasting our time"):

I don't think you guys understand what a "fact" is (but do think you guys think I love Zinoto, for some reason). The metagame and the competitive scene does not run by rules the universe pre-determined. They were constructed by us humans as players. This is turn invalidates claims that "oh, this is an undeniable universal fact because results because they are fact" as this is circular reasoning. We're not computers. But it certainly becomes difficult to argue anything when the assumption is that I'm here with an anti-competitive mindset wiki or whatever crap BeepYou is implying. —S+ Tier (List) | 18:31, 5 April 2017 (EDT)

What circular reasoning? My god, how hard is it to understand that tournament results indisputably and quite literally indicate the skill level of the player? If ZeRo consistently gets the best results out of Diddy, then it clearly can be said that he has the best Diddy. You have no credible argument here and quite frankly, you are beginning to sound ridiculous. Serpent King 18:39, 5 April 2017 (EDT)

Yesterday, via Discord, Omega Tyrant asked me why did I consider you a bigot. I think it is now clear why. And the supposed "fact" you say is easily overriden by OUR "fact", and ours is also backed by what the community says. If you don't love Zinoto, then okay, I get it. But, the thing is that the metagame does run by the pre-determined rules: without items, only in stages without a large hazard. No matter how you see it, match-ups are always the same on those stages. Also, at this point I'm no longer implying crap about what I said. Because it is clear you are what I said you were acting like: a bigot. Buzz off. -- Beep (talk) 18:48, 5 April 2017 (EDT)

"I'll end my side of the conversation with this (as the entire thread went downhill to the unproductive as soon as someone said the non-argument I'm "arguing for the sake of being difficult with us and wasting our time")"

I will ask again, where is there any sort of serious contingent in the community that actually argues Zero is not the best Diddy? The questionable quality of your arguments aside, your claim is an extremely fringe one at best, that your pushing of and ignoring factual standards of (e.g. results) makes you come off as someone being contrarian for the sake of argument, which this perception is not helped by your immediate prior argument on the tier list talk page.

"The metagame and the competitive scene does not run by rules the universe pre-determined. They were constructed by us humans as players. This is turn invalidates claims that "oh, this is an undeniable universal fact because results because they are fact" as this is circular reasoning. We're not computers."

And under the rules of competition set up, who wins more? In what sort of head-to-head competition anywhere, is the player who has the ability to win more often under equal standing is not the better player? How does a player win more often if they're not the better player, when in order to win, you have to outplay the opponent, which means playing the game better than them and thus being the better player? Omega Tyrant 20:06, 5 April 2017 (EDT)

We should mention this page was mentioned/featured in a news article

The gaming magazine Kokatu references this page when referring to ZeRo's all-time lowest placing. Wikipedia does something similar by mentioning the news articles that involve Wikipedia in the respective talk pages. —S+ Tier (List) | 19:22, 3 April 2017 (EDT)