User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity/Archive 1

Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff (SSB64)

I included ledge and floor attacks because they're attacks and they're part of the characters' metagames, and I think ignoring them doesn't make any sense. I can understand non-attack animations, though. "Flr1" is face down, "Flr2" is back down, "Ldg1" is <100% damage, "Ldg2" is >100% damage.

Original	Possible clone	Ntr	Ftl	Utl	Dtl	DAtk	Fsmh	Usmh	Dsmh	Narl	Farl	Barl	Uarl	Darl	Fthw	Bthw	Flr1	Flr2	Ldg1	Ldg2	NS	US	DS	Total	%
Samus	Captain Falcon	0.21	0.51	1	0.51	1	0	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	0.51	0	0	0	16.5/22	39.5%
Kirby	Jigglypuff	2/31	1	1	1	1	1	0	0.51	1	0.51	0	0	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	0	0	0	13.7/22	62.2%

1. (Samus/Falcon): Captain Falcon doesn't put his shoulder into the first hit of his jab as much as Samus does, but the rest of the attack is different enough to not be half-way cloned. For the f- and d-tilts, Captain Falcon doesn't spin when he does his like Samus does, but otherwise they're identical in function and speed. For the second ledge attack, Captain Falcon does an uppercut while Samus slams the foe with her cannon. They're identical in speed, having the same startup animation.
1. (Kirby/Jigglypuff): Jigglypuff doesn't have an infinite, but entirety of her jab combo is identical in function and speed to the first two hits of Kirby's. For the down smash, Jigglypuff doesn't spin and hers comes out a tad slower. They have the same amount of cooldown though. For the forward aerial it's almost the same; Kirby spins and his is a multi-hit move, Jigglypuff doesn't spin and it's single-hit.

I could also do Ness in comparison to Mario/Luigi in SSB64, and Ganondorf in comparison to Samus in Melee, but it's safe to say they're non-clones (the fact that they share those few attacks though should be shown on your charts, which I think should include ledge and floor attacks). Blue Ninjakoopa 16:38, 26 October 2014 (EDT)

I chose to ignore floor and edge attacks because I feel the overall variation across the cast with them is so much lower than normal attacks, which would raise pretty much everyone's clone rating.

I might do those Samus/Falcon and Kirby/Jigglypuff comperisons myself later. Toomai Glittershine The Orchestral 16:56, 26 October 2014 (EDT)

Lucario and Mewtwo?

You should probably also do Lucario from Brawl and Mewtwo from Melee, despite the fact that Mewtwo didn't return, just to prove those who believe Lucario's some kind of clone of Mewtwo wrong. Just a suggestion. Bulbaboy (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Hmm that's not a bad idea. Toomai Glittershine The Altruistic 14:26, 10 November 2014 (EST)

awww i wanted to suggest this -.- Well, I had another suggestion. Could you do Young Link/Toon Link (both versions of the latter) and Roy/Lucina? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 16:06, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Those would be less relevant but I'll consider them. Toomai Glittershine The Prismatic 16:19, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Curious

Where did you decide to cut off between clone and semi-clone, and semi-clone and non-clone. I like round numbers so I would have done 75% and 50% (but this would've made Falco in Brawl a full clone and Lucas a non-clone). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 18:06, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Dr. Mario/Luigi

I think you should go Dr. Mario/Luigi. I wanna see how it compares to Dr. Mario/Mario, especially with the down-b stuff in SSB4. 108.41.245.79 12:02, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Yeah I've been thinking a bit more carefully about that edit of yours on the clone page I undid a few minutes ago, and you might have a point. I'm seeing if I can reword it better. Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 12:03, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Okay yes I believe I get what you're saying. I'll go put it on the clone page. Toomai Glittershine El Pollo 12:12, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Coincidence

Coincidentally, this page is itself a clone - of User:Omega Tyrant/Clone charts. RickTommy 01:31, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Yeah, I never agreed too much with OT's methodology of this issue, so I rolled my own. Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 11:05, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Kirby and Jigglypuff Melee?

Can you please make this comparison and add it in? It would be interesting to see how much they decloned into Melee and where they would fall into the complete chart in the bottom.

Thank you, MarioIsTheBest (talk) 14:00, 30 November 2014 (EST)

I've actually compiled that information recently.

Original	Possible Clone	Ntr	Ftl	Utl	Dtl	DAtk	Fsmh	Usmh	Dsmh	Narl	Farl	Barl	Uarl	Darl	Pml	Fthw	Bthw	Uthw	Dthw	NS	SS	US	DS	Total	%
Kirby	Jigglypuff	2/3	1	1	1	0	0.67	0	0.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	6.84/22	31.09%

Strangely enough, Jigglypuff is between 30% and 40%, therefore being, by Toomai's classification, between non-clone and semi-clone. Pokedex649 (talk) 21:04, 4 December 2014 (EST)

Fox and Falco SSB4

So my brother pointed this out to me earlier and he said that Fox and Falco's jab animations aren't alike in any way in Smash 4. I cross-referenced using his 3DS and mine and looked at both of their animations at the same time and there's a distinct difference. Bulbaboy (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Ganon and Falcon's neutral attack (Melee)

In Melee, they have the same animation, from what I've seen. I think that it should at least be a .5 cloned move in Melee. PikaSamus (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Yes, but Ganon's neutral in Melee is a one-time hitter, whereas Captain Falcon's is a 3-hit jabber (if that makes any sense). Aidan the Gamer 10:08, 2 December 2014 (EST)

A weighty issue

A counterargument that could be made is that you give every single individual move equal weight. A forward Smash is equal to one move. A neutral B is equal to one move. This seems unfair. Why?

Consider the following: Unambiguously describe, in one phrase, without the use of the word "or" or an equivalent, the forward Smash of the majority of the characters. You can't give the exact animations or what have you in order to do this reasonably, but it can be done, in a general sense, with the following statement: "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character". A few characters' forward Smashes have extra notes you might want to throw in for those characters or even exceptions (Mega Man's is a horizontal projectile, Olimar's is a thrown gravity-obeying projectile using the Pikmin mechanic, Snake's is a diagonally-shot missile...), but this covers most of the cast pretty well, right?

Now do the same with neutral B attacks. "An attack" is too vague. What's that? Can't do it? Yeah, of course not. While A-button moves are kinda similar in concept between characters, B-button moves are usually dramatically different. Is it fair to get each of a character's eighteen (in SSB4) A-button attacks equal weight to each of their five Specials? That seems dramatically biased in favor of the easier-to-generalize A-button moves.

Let's alter the weights. Different people will weight differently. Perhaps all A-button attacks combined are equal in weight to all B-button attacks combined. Now, let's say that there are no arguments to be had with the exact on your chart (1 = fully cloned move, .5 = kinda-cloned move); only the weights. Now, who is clonier? Wolf (50.6%) or SSB64 Falcon (17.8%)?

And let's say one declares that even that is unfairly weighted in favor of the, again, easy-to-generalize A-button moves. Let's say all A-button attacks combined are equal in weight to one B-button attack. Now Wolf is 76.9% clone and Falcon 8.9%.

See what I mean? Changing the weights changes the perceived cloniness by a lot. --131.107.192.254 18:16, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

If you think all A-button attacks are equivalent in significance to all B-button attacks (let alone one) you have a very badly skewed sense of how Smash works. Miles (talk) 18:20, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Percieved, yes. Actual cloneosity, no. This is about the developers' intent.72.152.70.243 18:25, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Miles: I explained exactly why I feel this way. Different forward Smashes have different properties, yes, this I absolutely do not argue. It's true even when discussing Mario vs. Dr. Mario. And some are more different than others. Again, no argument. But the fact that most of the forward Smashes can be summed up as a "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character" means it does less to differentiate characters than special moves. Not one part of my argument requires forward Smashes not to exist or to be wholly irrelevant.

Other IP: How can you know the developers' intent unless the developers say it? Other than character roster placement in Melee and (at least partially) Smash 4, they haven't actually said anything official on the subject that I'm aware of. I think Wolf's Up-B being called "Fire Wolf" when it doesn't involve any fire whatsoever is the most they've ever said on intent when it comes to Wolf. --131.107.192.254 18:47, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Okay yeah, all forward smashes can fit a super-vague definition. By that logic, all up specials (but one) are "upward motion move used for recovery and sometimes damage". That's vague to the point of meaningless in terms of distinguishing between characters. Miles (talk) 19:01, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

It has been basically confirmed that Lucina falls into full clone territory according to [Sakurai himself.] I believe there was also an article confirming Dr. Mario and Dark Pit as well, but I don't know where that is, but the character placement is a big clue, too. Dr. Mario has a unique Down Special, which would probably make him a semi-clone going by your weighting proposal. (Same guy) 72.152.70.243 19:10, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Miles: ::::First of all, I banned the word "or" and equivalents. The intent behind that goes for "sometimes" as well; anything that allows you to describe options (otherwise, your description of a neutral B could be "a bouncing fireball OR a horizontal fireball OR a grabbing move that temporarily transforms a target into an egg OR a chargeable punch etc.").

Secondly, I would say that's more vague than "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character". Sure, I left open how you're attacking (punch, kick, headbutt, sword swipe, etc.) and the in-depth details (damage, speed, knockback direction, etc.), but you're leaving those same things open alongside "Where is the 'sometimes' damage aimed relative to the user? Does the damage do a lot of knockback or a little? Can it be charged? Does it work the same when on the ground as in the air? Does it also cause you to move down after you move up? Can it be used to move in directions other than up?", and the reason it doesn't list those are that the answers are "Depends, depends, depends, depends, depends, and depends." For my description, the answer are "immediately in front, a lot, yes, not applicable because all forward Smashes are ground-based by nature, not applicable, and not applicable".

Also, I'm pretty confident that's the only special move you can even get that specific with (which is why I picked neutral, not up, B for my example.) That and maybe "super move when you break a Smash Ball" for FS, of course.

Other IP: Okay, that's all fine for those characters, but I meant evidence of developer intent with Wolf. I accept Wolf is lower on the clone continuum than Lucina and Pittoo. I don't accept he's lower than Falcon64, just because some oddly-weighted number finagling makes him look that way. Again, the only developer intent I've seen with Wolf, beyond the same moves everyone else can see, would be how his specials (particularly Fire Wolf) were named.

And whether Smash 4 Doc counts as a clone depends on how you're weighting the moves and what your cutoff for "semi-clone" is. I would hope there's no such argument for Melee Doc, as if Melee Doc isn't a clone, I think we can all agree the term "clone" has little meaning! --131.107.192.254 19:19, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

My point is that your specials-heavy weighting might place Dr. Mario as a semiclone when he's obviously a full clone, as intended by the developers (proven by my previous post. Also, I don't think we should change the entire concept of this page because you don't like considering Wolf a nonclone. 72.152.70.243 19:24, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Actually, what numbers you come up with when you run Doc under various weights don't matter. What I'm really getting at is that this page seems to exist for exactly the opposite reason you say this heading does: Toomai doesn't like considering Wolf a clone, even a semi-clone, probably because "clone" has become some sort of curse word amongst the Smash fandom (unfairly if you ask me), and that whether someone is a clone or not is more subjective than this page tries to imply. If you look closely, I never said that "weigh all A-button moves as equal to all B-button moves" or "weigh all A-button moves as equal to one B-button move" are the only or even best ways to weigh them. Are they biased? Yeah, they are. I could go even more biased by giving A-button moves a weight of zero if you'd like; see how cloney Wolf is with Toomai's numbers then! (Hint: 90%.) You could even decide that B-button moves don't matter at all and give Wolf a whopping 11.1%. You could weigh down Smashes more than down throws. You could change the weights any way you like, and that's the point! It's subjective, and treating each of the eighteen A-button and 5 B-button moves as having equal eight shows a bias in favor of the A-button moves differentiating characters more than B-button that I feel is an unfair one. You say developer intent matters; I say then "show me the developer intent"! Because I see far more evidence the developers intended for Wolf to be a Fox derivative (does "derivative" offend your sensibilities less than "clone"?) than Falcon64 a Samus derivative. --131.107.192.254 19:39, 3 April 2015 (EDT)