User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity/Archive 1

Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff (SSB64)

I included ledge and floor attacks because they're attacks and they're part of the characters' metagames, and I think ignoring them doesn't make any sense. I can understand non-attack animations, though. "Flr1" is face down, "Flr2" is back down, "Ldg1" is <100% damage, "Ldg2" is >100% damage.

Original	Possible clone	Ntr	Ftl	Utl	Dtl	DAtk	Fsmh	Usmh	Dsmh	Narl	Farl	Barl	Uarl	Darl	Fthw	Bthw	Flr1	Flr2	Ldg1	Ldg2	NS	US	DS	Total	%
Samus	Captain Falcon	0.21	0.51	1	0.51	1	0	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	0.51	0	0	0	16.5/22	39.5%
Kirby	Jigglypuff	2/31	1	1	1	1	1	0	0.51	1	0.51	0	0	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	0	0	0	13.7/22	62.2%

1. (Samus/Falcon): Captain Falcon doesn't put his shoulder into the first hit of his jab as much as Samus does, but the rest of the attack is different enough to not be half-way cloned. For the f- and d-tilts, Captain Falcon doesn't spin when he does his like Samus does, but otherwise they're identical in function and speed. For the second ledge attack, Captain Falcon does an uppercut while Samus slams the foe with her cannon. They're identical in speed, having the same startup animation.
1. (Kirby/Jigglypuff): Jigglypuff doesn't have an infinite, but entirety of her jab combo is identical in function and speed to the first two hits of Kirby's. For the down smash, Jigglypuff doesn't spin and hers comes out a tad slower. They have the same amount of cooldown though. For the forward aerial it's almost the same; Kirby spins and his is a multi-hit move, Jigglypuff doesn't spin and it's single-hit.

I could also do Ness in comparison to Mario/Luigi in SSB64, and Ganondorf in comparison to Samus in Melee, but it's safe to say they're non-clones (the fact that they share those few attacks though should be shown on your charts, which I think should include ledge and floor attacks). Blue Ninjakoopa 16:38, 26 October 2014 (EDT)

I chose to ignore floor and edge attacks because I feel the overall variation across the cast with them is so much lower than normal attacks, which would raise pretty much everyone's clone rating.

I might do those Samus/Falcon and Kirby/Jigglypuff comperisons myself later. Toomai Glittershine The Orchestral 16:56, 26 October 2014 (EDT)

Lucario and Mewtwo?

You should probably also do Lucario from Brawl and Mewtwo from Melee, despite the fact that Mewtwo didn't return, just to prove those who believe Lucario's some kind of clone of Mewtwo wrong. Just a suggestion. Bulbaboy (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Hmm that's not a bad idea. Toomai Glittershine The Altruistic 14:26, 10 November 2014 (EST)

awww i wanted to suggest this -.- Well, I had another suggestion. Could you do Young Link/Toon Link (both versions of the latter) and Roy/Lucina? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 16:06, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Those would be less relevant but I'll consider them. Toomai Glittershine The Prismatic 16:19, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Curious

Where did you decide to cut off between clone and semi-clone, and semi-clone and non-clone. I like round numbers so I would have done 75% and 50% (but this would've made Falco in Brawl a full clone and Lucas a non-clone). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 18:06, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Dr. Mario/Luigi

I think you should go Dr. Mario/Luigi. I wanna see how it compares to Dr. Mario/Mario, especially with the down-b stuff in SSB4. 108.41.245.79 12:02, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Yeah I've been thinking a bit more carefully about that edit of yours on the clone page I undid a few minutes ago, and you might have a point. I'm seeing if I can reword it better. Toomai Glittershine The Resolute 12:03, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Okay yes I believe I get what you're saying. I'll go put it on the clone page. Toomai Glittershine El Pollo 12:12, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Coincidence

Coincidentally, this page is itself a clone - of User:Omega Tyrant/Clone charts. RickTommy 01:31, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Yeah, I never agreed too much with OT's methodology of this issue, so I rolled my own. Toomai Glittershine The Pan-Galactic 11:05, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Kirby and Jigglypuff Melee?

Can you please make this comparison and add it in? It would be interesting to see how much they decloned into Melee and where they would fall into the complete chart in the bottom.

Thank you, MarioIsTheBest (talk) 14:00, 30 November 2014 (EST)

I've actually compiled that information recently.

Original	Possible Clone	Ntr	Ftl	Utl	Dtl	DAtk	Fsmh	Usmh	Dsmh	Narl	Farl	Barl	Uarl	Darl	Pml	Fthw	Bthw	Uthw	Dthw	NS	SS	US	DS	Total	%
Kirby	Jigglypuff	2/3	1	1	1	0	0.67	0	0.5	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	6.84/22	31.09%

Strangely enough, Jigglypuff is between 30% and 40%, therefore being, by Toomai's classification, between non-clone and semi-clone. Pokedex649 (talk) 21:04, 4 December 2014 (EST)

Fox and Falco SSB4

So my brother pointed this out to me earlier and he said that Fox and Falco's jab animations aren't alike in any way in Smash 4. I cross-referenced using his 3DS and mine and looked at both of their animations at the same time and there's a distinct difference. Bulbaboy (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Ganon and Falcon's neutral attack (Melee)

In Melee, they have the same animation, from what I've seen. I think that it should at least be a .5 cloned move in Melee. PikaSamus (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Yes, but Ganon's neutral in Melee is a one-time hitter, whereas Captain Falcon's is a 3-hit jabber (if that makes any sense). Aidan the Gamer 10:08, 2 December 2014 (EST)

A weighty issue

A counterargument that could be made is that you give every single individual move equal weight. A forward Smash is equal to one move. A neutral B is equal to one move. This seems unfair. Why?

Consider the following: Unambiguously describe, in one phrase, without the use of the word "or" or an equivalent, the forward Smash of the majority of the characters. You can't give the exact animations or what have you in order to do this reasonably, but it can be done, in a general sense, with the following statement: "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character". A few characters' forward Smashes have extra notes you might want to throw in for those characters or even exceptions (Mega Man's is a horizontal projectile, Olimar's is a thrown gravity-obeying projectile using the Pikmin mechanic, Snake's is a diagonally-shot missile...), but this covers most of the cast pretty well, right?

Now do the same with neutral B attacks. "An attack" is too vague. What's that? Can't do it? Yeah, of course not. While A-button moves are kinda similar in concept between characters, B-button moves are usually dramatically different. Is it fair to get each of a character's eighteen (in SSB4) A-button attacks equal weight to each of their five Specials? That seems dramatically biased in favor of the easier-to-generalize A-button moves.

Let's alter the weights. Different people will weight differently. Perhaps all A-button attacks combined are equal in weight to all B-button attacks combined. Now, let's say that there are no arguments to be had with the exact on your chart (1 = fully cloned move, .5 = kinda-cloned move); only the weights. Now, who is clonier? Wolf (50.6%) or SSB64 Falcon (17.8%)?

And let's say one declares that even that is unfairly weighted in favor of the, again, easy-to-generalize A-button moves. Let's say all A-button attacks combined are equal in weight to one B-button attack. Now Wolf is 76.9% clone and Falcon 8.9%.

See what I mean? Changing the weights changes the perceived cloniness by a lot. --131.107.192.254 18:16, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

If you think all A-button attacks are equivalent in significance to all B-button attacks (let alone one) you have a very badly skewed sense of how Smash works. Miles (talk) 18:20, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Percieved, yes. Actual cloneosity, no. This is about the developers' intent.72.152.70.243 18:25, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Miles: I explained exactly why I feel this way. Different forward Smashes have different properties, yes, this I absolutely do not argue. It's true even when discussing Mario vs. Dr. Mario. And some are more different than others. Again, no argument. But the fact that most of the forward Smashes can be summed up as a "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character" means it does less to differentiate characters than special moves. Not one part of my argument requires forward Smashes not to exist or to be wholly irrelevant.

Other IP: How can you know the developers' intent unless the developers say it? Other than character roster placement in Melee and (at least partially) Smash 4, they haven't actually said anything official on the subject that I'm aware of. I think Wolf's Up-B being called "Wolf Fire" when it doesn't involve any fire whatsoever is the most they've ever said on intent when it comes to Wolf. --131.107.192.254 18:47, 3 April 2015 (EDT)