Talk:Tournament

Round Robins

"However, the worst part about round robin tournaments is that there's no epic final match which makes it boring." Several things are wrong with that sentence, mainly epic and boring. Those 2 are highly opinionated words, as some people find the final match lame, since it could be a completely one sided match, and then boring, because they don't really need to care about how much someone lost. Epic and boring are too opinionated for the sentence to be valid, and not having a final match is not relevant to the actual disadvantages. MegaTron1XD 14:34, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Per the above, not having a final match to determine the winner of the tournament isn't an objective disadvantage of the bracket type, unlike the time issues a round robin brings once you start going over 12 players in size. I'll also add that if a final match is wanted, the TO could always have the top two players at the end of a round robin do one final set to determine the winner of the tournament. Omega Tyrant 15:16, 1 January 2012 (EST)

I'm not talking about a double round robin tournament, I'm talking about a single round robin. Some people would prefer that there would be a final match in a tournament, otherwise it wouldn't be a good tournament. "Some people find the final match lame" ????? Who and why would anyone find the final match lame? It's worth more than all the other matches. That is a bad disadvantage for some people. Avengingbandit 00:53, 2 January 2012 (EST)

The sentence itself is highly opinionated with the words epic and boring. A final match is not worth more than the other matches, due to match ups that people of each character find exciting (San vs Ally would be more exciting for me, rather than the final Ally vs M2K). Different matchups and different character preferences are what would determine if a match is exciting for someone. The final simply pits the best, not the most entertaining fighters. The statement is not a relevant disadvantage because of the hundreds of different favorite matches among tournament goers, leading to less people than you think liking the final match. MegaTron1XD 02:13, 2 January 2012 (EST)

I'm not talking about a double round robin tournament, I'm talking about a single round robin.

Doesn't matter. If the TO wants a final set in a round robin, he can have the two best players play a final set in the end of the tournament to determine the winner, rather than just declaring the best player at the end the winner.

And stop misusing the term "double round robin". A double round robin is when every player play each other twice.

Some people would prefer that there would be a final match in a tournament, otherwise it wouldn't be a good tournament. "Some people find the final match lame" ????? Who and why would anyone find the final match lame? It's worth more than all the other matches. That is a bad disadvantage for some people.

What's the general purpose of a tournament? To find the best player. Is a final match necessary to find that? No.

As such, the lack of a final match is not an objective disadvantage. Not to mention, the TO can make their own changes to a tournament type to fit their desire, thus as explained before, a final match can done anyway in a round robin. And where's your citation for "some people"? Or are these "some people" made up? Omega Tyrant 08:23, 2 January 2012 (EST)

statement is a redundant tautology

"*Regional Tournament: A large tournament that draws significant attendance from neighboring regions. Only top professional players can usually expect to win a regional tournament."

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a top professional player defined as someone who wins these types of tournaments? If someone not considered a top professional wins this type of tournament, they will immediately be reclassified as one. For example, Emukiller was so reclassified, in the eyes of his smasher profile on this very site, after his massive upset victory in SKTAR 3 Project M. So if you unpack the statement, it's saying:

"Only players who win regional tournaments can usually expect to win a regional tournament."

Of course when you put it that way it sounds silly.70.198.136.165 22:37, 18 September 2014 (EDT)

Side Events section

I think the section, specifically the part about Brawl mods, should be modified. Right now it implies that Project M and Brawl Minus are nearly equal in popularity, which is not true; and that Project M is only treated as a side event, not a main event alongside Melee and/or Brawl, at major tournaments; also not true. Maybe all this was once the case but if so then the section is outdated.70.198.136.165 23:31, 18 September 2014 (EDT)

"Violates policy"

Tell me how the edit I made "violates policy." If anything, you're the one violating policy by reverting the edit I just made to the page. Is this another one of your dumb excuses to try and stop me from getting information on the page? Stop abusing your admin powers. Awesome Cardinal 2000 20:16, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

It doesn't violate policy, but it's worded extremely subjectively, which is obviously frowned upon in an encyclopedic article. Nyargleblargle (Talk · Contribs) 20:26, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

If it doesn't violate policy, then Miles shouldn't be accusing me of doing so.

Even though the wording may seem a bit harsh, the article still does not favor one viewpoint over the other, and is simply stating the facts of what happened in the Smash tournament scene. Information about the reception of something by the public is an absolute necessity for encyclopedia articles. Look at all the articles on Wikipedia and other places that include sections on the reception. The article may include the negative viewpoints of some community members, but to remove this information and pretend that every's all positive and happy is to misinform readers and hide from them valuable knowledge that is essential to any encyclopedic article. Awesome Cardinal 2000 20:37, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

The policy violation is mentioning Project M. Miles (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

First of all, if that's why I was violating the policy, you should have at least stated that in your edit summary. Secondly, Project M is a huge part of the Smash Bros. tournament scene and its mentioning is essential to this article. If there's some ruling saying that PM is not to be mentioned on articles without PM in their title or something like that, it needs to be changed as it inhibits growth on pages such as this one. Third, if PM really is the only thing violating policy, then only that part should be removed, while everything else not mentioning PM should stay. Awesome Cardinal 2000 22:55, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

That was far from the only problem with the content you reverted, but it was the part that violated policy. The current standing policy is that if a page is not a) explicitly about Project M or b) about a specific Smasher/tournament where Project M is involved, it doesn't exist and isn't to be mentioned at all. Miles (talk) 02:50, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

Talking about the competitive scene while not mentioning PM is like talking about the history of the computer without mentioning Apple or Microsoft. It's so important that leaving it out would cut out a huge chunk of information. This "policy" that bans it needs to be changed then, as it is preventing this page from becoming the informative article it should be. And if this was "far from the only problem from the content you reverted," a) fully explain to me what's wrong with it, and b) fix it yourself, or at least tell me how to fix it, to turn it into a well-written paragraph. Also, when you revert a page, you're supposed to leave the page as it was before the revert and then discuss it, not leave the page with the new controversial changes. Why are you so reluctant to explain your thinking to me and follow wiki guidelines? Awesome Cardinal 2000 07:04, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

I see no problem with a mention of PM on a page on tournaments. If specific tournaments are allowed to have PM, why not the page describing tournaments? It should be worded far less subjectively, sure, but a PM mention would be just fine here in my opinion. Serpent∞King (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

I also think that PM should be allowed to be mentioned on all competitive pages. It is a fairly integral part to the competitive community. I understand not wanting it on pages about character moves, stages, or techniques, but I think its more helpful than harmful. The reason I found out about Project M was because it was linked to an article it wasn't supposed to, and it is my favorite way to play Smash now. John PK SMAAAASH!! 10:10, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

I personally think we have to bend the rule for this one page. It's the fault of tournaments that we have to deal with this PM stupidity in the first place. Toomai Glittershine The Inconceivable 10:13, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

Fine then. That doesn't address the numerous other problems in the content AC was re-adding, though. Parts of it are blatantly anti-Brawl in a way that doesn't even represent the consensus of players I've seen post on the subject, while statements like "there is a correlation between tournament experience and overall skill" are so incredibly subjective and unnecessary that I can't comprehend why they would be considered desirable. Miles (talk) 11:13, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

A lot of stuff in the article may sound really anti-Brawl, but it's absolutely true, that's literally what happened after Brawl came out and everyone began switching back to Melee. Like PM, leaving out that info heavily misinforms the reader. The fact that people stopped playing Brawl because they didn't like is incredibly important to the tournament scene. Omitting the information is conversely overly pro-Brawl by pretending the community has no issue with it. Writing several paragraphs about why the community left Brawl would be overkill. You may not like it, but it's true. Why did Melee and Smash 4 have nearly ten times the amount of entrants as Brawl at Apex this year?

Also, "there is a correlation between tournament experience and overall skill" may sound subjective to you, but it's also true information. Honestly, what opinion are you favoring when you say that people who go to tournaments often are better than people who don't? Awesome Cardinal 2000 17:03, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

Go talk to Praxis on the subject, I don't care to explain the whole thought process of people who preferred certain things about competitive Brawl. Even M2k made some comments to that effect recently. Regardless, what exactly do you think is inadequate about the existing sentence? "Brawl had a relatively large tournament scene in its first five years, but it has declined since then with Smash players becoming increasingly reproachful of Brawl's gameplay as well as the changes from Melee." seems like it already makes your point in a less hostile fashion.

Furthermore, if you can't understand why "there is a correlation between tournament experience and overall skill" is opinionated and un-encyclopedic, I'm not really sure what you're thinking. It contributes nothing of value to the page. Miles (talk) 17:16, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

I know why people like playing Brawl; it was my favorite Smash game that I actively followed for a long time. But you can't just say "people stopped playing Brawl," you have to explain why there was such a huge shift by saying something like "People liked the much faster-paced gameplay of Melee," etc. for it to provide relevant encyclopedic information. The words "flaws" could be replaced with a different word that doesn't clearly favor Melee, but the old revision provides a much more detailed explanation.

Thinking about the whole correlation a second time, I agree with you that it doesn't need to be there. Awesome Cardinal 2000 18:11, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

As the person who made the edit that sparked this discussion, I support the mention of PM in any page that is exclusive to the tournament scene (such as tier list, but not wavedash). The edit was merely to draw attention to it (which I saw as the most effective method). However, Miles is definitely right as the way the paragraph was written initially was pretty bad (not saying my revision was an improvement, but an effort), being blatantly biased towards Melee while pointing out completely obvious and unnecessary shit (such as the point about tournaments being the testing grounds for player skill), and also pleonastic in my opinion. - EndGenuity (talk) 14:48, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

I personally think that limiting the presence of PM to an some extent is a good idea, but it really should be mentioned on the wavedash page it was a direct result of dissatisfaction of Brawl lacking that mechanic.--Dinodomain (talk) 15:07, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

Melee is still the most common tourney game?

Basically title. I thought Smash 4 is possibly more common than Melee?--Dinodomain (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

That statement is probably a bit outdated, as Melee and Smash 4 have had similar numbers of entrants at major tournaments. However, Smash 4's tornament scene is disproportionately smaller compared to its overall fanbase. Awesome Cardinal 2000 06:51, 11 September 2015 (EDT)

Project M worth mentioning?

I know that because of a policy about Project M (Sorry, I can't link it, because its been so long ago, I either forgot the name of the debate page or it was deleted right after), it can only be mentioned in PM pages and no where else unless really important but since Project M has a tournament scene that is small but notable, can it be mentioned on this page? Dots (talk) The Snow as White 20:27, 28 September 2015 (EDT)

It should. I love to hate on Project M, but it IS the most prominent mod in the competitive/tournament Smash scene, so I think that makes it deserving of some sort of mention here. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 20:32, 28 September 2015 (EDT)

Right now PM is probably has the third biggest scene after Melee and Wii U. It was even bigger a year ago before the release of Smash for Wii U and being dropped from major tournaments.--Dinodomain (talk) 01:00, 4 October 2015 (EDT)

Bump. Dots (talk) The Blue 19:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

Something's off

How come about 5/6 of the anomyous vandals vandalize something that has to do something with the competitve scene? Like changing M2K's name to DER Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ 17:19, 5 February 2016 (EST)

Probably because many people out there hate the competitive gameplay. Penro ...that's all. 17:23, 5 February 2016 (EST)

Additional Topics

I would like to add a waterfall bracket format (Examples: Snosa III, Smash 'N' Splash 3 and Keystoned 2017) but it still highly experimental as it was all practiced just as of this year and also need a bit more support before I would update wiki-tournament format.

I would also like to see someone add to the side events section YOLO tournament format. The only issue is the set-up for this style and the exact rule-set is sort of house-rules based. For example: During Snosa III Smash 64 tournament from what I saw. 64 doesn't have a random character selection so we randomize by turning on a CPU and observe for whatever character appears on the 10th selection, the stage is selected at random, all items are on very high. But what are the rules regarding melee, brawl, pm and wii u if there is a YOLO side event present?

Any thoughts? Lv20ninja (talk) 10:33, 7 September 2017 (EDT)

This article feels weird

This article feels like a documentary while the other pages dont, this feels weird because this wiki should be consistent in how it feels, but that is just what I think. MeleeBoi (talk) 22:18, April 4, 2020 (EDT)

Splitting side events into its own article

The side events section on this page has gotten very large; it currently has 14 subsections, and that number will only continue to increase as time goes on. The topic of side events in competitive Smash is also significant enough to merit its own article, and certain individual side events, like going more indepth on the history of low/mid tier tournaments, could merit farther elaboration than the current setup on this page would suitably allow for. This topic was briefly discussed in the discord server and I agreed with the idea of the split, so I thought to make it an official proposal here. Omega Tyrant 00:23, March 25, 2023 (EDT)

Support --Meester Tweester (talk) 01:56, March 25, 2023 (EDT)

Support, side events are commonly included in many tournaments, many different formats are very common like Squad Strike and crew battles. Definitely deserve their own page cuz there are numerous formats and a lot of them are popular. NPM Morr!? 08:20, March 25, 2023 (EDT)

Support. CookiesCreme 00:57, March 31, 2023 (EDT)

Support, though there should be a thing at the top saying "this is about standard play, for side events go here" just to keep everything streamlined. Page has notable benefits in being able to better document other popular or notable side events, like Rishi's Jungle Jam or something. --Plague von Karma 15:57, May 4, 2023 (EDT)

Support. Making a separate article for this page could allow for more elaboration on events and the topic in general. Jordan2009, the Sora Main Talk here 17:58, June 6, 2023 (EDT)

Support. The article is pretty lengthy, so I see this as an easy solution. LaughinElf (talk) 22:23, July 14, 2023 (EDT)