Talk:Navi

Deletion

Oppose. Slime also has a page, and is a taunt character as well. If we delete this page, we should delete slime’s as well. Lou Cena (talk) 13:28, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose. Navi has appeared in more then one installment as a taunt. And all the ones as part of Namco Roulette do have their own page with Namco Roulette. Navi herself physically appears in a taunt while the Roulette characters aren’t actually there. Especially considering the Mario Maker costumes don’t count when they’re basically the same thing. Morgana was given a page before he was revealed to also be a costume. And with Slime, Navi should keep her page. With Namco Roulette being an entirely different case, what’s preventing Slime and Navi from having pages as taunt elements? Taunts are “technically” a part of their moves, right? Luigi can deal damage with one of his. 172.58.173.88 14:12, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Slime's page would also be deleted, if we were to delete this one. As for Morgana, he was given a page the same day as the 15-minute video that showed A. he was a Final Smash character (which was grounds for a page creation anyway), B. he was a taunt character, and C. he was a Mii costume (which was also grounds for a page creation). Aidan, the Rurouni 14:35, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Navi and Slime should keep their pages as they are part of taunts, which is part of a playable character’s abilities. Namco Roulette Characters are like the Mario Maker costumes which were stated by this wiki not to count for a character’s cameo or inclusion on the wiki. Why shouldn’t taunt characters be given pages? It’s technically part of a character’s arsenal, with cases like Luigi. 172.58.173.88 16:13, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

The Namco Roulette characters are no different from Navi or Slime, minus the fact that they’re sprites instead of models. None of them have any effect on gameplay at all. I change my oppose to a support now.

As for Slime, let’s just wait until the Hero releases, and then we’ll find out if Slime deserves to be deleted as well. If The Hero throws a slime out as part of his moveset, let’s keep it. But for now, let’s just delete Navi’s page. Lou Cena (talk) 18:09, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

There still is no reason given as to why Navi and Slime shouldn’t or can’t have pages. If it’s because they have to effect on gameplay, neither do mii costumes. And besides, the deletion tag was added by an admin and was removed by a different admin who said there was no problems with Navi having a page. The Namco Roulette does have its own page, which would have to be deleted if Navi and Slime can’t have pages themselves. Just because taunts have no effect on gameplay is not even true. Luigi’s AND Greninja’s have effect on gameplay. If effecting gameplay determines a page, then pages for mii costumes have to be deleted under the same reasons as Navi and the Mario Maker costumes. They have no effect on gameplay, AND are not actually the characters themselves. Which means Morgana’s page will be deleted as well. There is no actual reason why Navi and Slime can’t have pages, and no reason why the mii costume pages can stay if they are deleted. 172.58.173.88 18:53, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Wait... wasn't this tagged for deletion before, but then overridden? CookiesCreme 19:18, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

It was, and, truthfully, I'm not exactly sure why. Aidan, the Rurouni 19:28, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Support. Being the person who created the Namco Roulette page, the reasons I created it are: it's notable and unique among taunts (the only taunt with a random element, references a wide extent of Namco games that are unrelated to Pac-Man) and because of that, there's more than enough information to warrant its own page. Basically nothing about Navi can be said besides "she appears in Link's taunt", and regardless, it's not even clear if she appears in Brawl and Smash 4 to begin with; the fairy in those games is more likely a reference to the Wii Remote cursor from Twilight Princess. She really just isn't notable enough to carry a page. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 19:22, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

The problem is apparently because she has no gameplay element, which means she, Slime, the Roulette, and mii costume inspirations’ pages are to be deleted. Even if Navi wasn’t in Brawl, she’s in Ultimate as part of Young Link’s taunt. Nothing about the Roulette matters as it’s just a taunt. Same for the mii costumes. Not the character, and no gameplay element. Mii costumes are just the alt costumes for Mii Fighters, which apparently aren’t enough to get a page as they don’t effect gameplay. Either they ALL stay, or they ALL get deleted. There is no logical reasoning to keep certain taunts over the others, or to have the mii costumes over the taunts as they aren’t the fighters. In fact, Navi, Slime, and Morgana have more of a reason to have pages as they physically appear in the game, unlike the mii COSTUMES. 172.58.173.88 19:31, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Morgana is keeping his page regardless of if this page ends up being deleted. He's a Final Smash character, which is grounds for a page. Chrom and Palutena got one before they were playable, and the Mega Men each got one (along with Proto Man and Bass once they were shown to be in Ultimate). Aidan, the Rurouni 19:34, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

You're taking this too literally, anyway. Pages can be notable without having a physical appearance or a direct gameplay element. Mii Costumes are notable because they are, in essence, playable characters with basis in the originals. The Roulette is notable because it's a unique, non-standard taunt. Navi lacks anything other than a brief, context-free cameo, and if her only claims to fame are "a trophy in 3DS and a maybe-probably appearance in Link's taunt", then that puts her on the same level as someone like Alfonzo; a disambiguation page at most. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 19:42, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Support, if this had so much as one other form of representation in the game I'd oppose, but in its current state I'm kinda on the fence here, but I just can't really think of a reason why this page is necessary. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 19:35, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Then give a valid reason why Navi’s page should be deleted. Geno only appears as a spirit, nothing else. He WAS the basis for a costume, but that is not Geno himself. Morgana can stay, just like Dixie. But Geno, Chibi-Robo, Ribbon-Girl and so on have to be deleted. As specifically stated by admin Serpent King. “We don't generally make full articles for mii costumes, case closed, have a nice day. SerpentKing 15:22, June 28, 2019 (EDT)” As in the words of Serpent King with Mii costume only characters, “cased closed”. 172.58.173.88 23:14, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

(edit conflict) And admin Aidanzapunk (yours truly), along with admin Miles talked to him in Discord and told him that, since Smash 4 DLC, we've made pages for Mii costumes. Aidan, the Rurouni 23:18, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Because Geno was the basis for a costume at one point, he keeps his page. Deleting that would be like deleting the Tabuu page because he’s not a boss anymore. As for Serpent King stating that we generally don’t make pages for mii costumes, either that was a mistake or the basis for a completely separate discussion that isn’t relevant to Navi in any way, shape, or form. Lou Cena (talk) 23:17, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

That doesn’t mean we can’t correct an almost 5 year mistake. Bosses are different then mii costumes, as they have effect on gameplay. This whole entire argument on why Navi and Slime can’t have pages is based on the fact that they don’t effect “gameplay”. How do mii costumes effect gameplay? They don’t. How can you justify that decision if you make exceptions for them? Silver from Sonic doesn’t have a page despite appearing in the games. Because he doesn’t effect gameplay. Honestly, remove any redirects or links that don’t go to actual page on the wiki. What other character is named “Amy Rose”? There’s no legitimate reason for her to have disambiguation page over a character page. Just get rid of it all together. Taunt characters appear “physically”, mii costume characters don’t. Give a reason that specifically explains why mii costumes can have pages while taunt characters can’t despite neither effecting gameplay? And not all of us are fortunate enough to have out-of-wiki sources like Discord. 172.58.173.88 23:31, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

(Reset indent) The disambiguation pages are for linking to how the character appears, rather than multiple characters. Silver appears as a background character in Green Hill Zone (links to Green Hill Zone), and a trophy in Brawl and Smash 4 (linking to the Sonic trophy lists for both games). If you'd like to propose such, go bring it up in the general forums. Aidan, the Rurouni 23:35, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

How would I be able to do that? IPs can’t creat new pages, let alone a personal for taunt and mii costume related character pages. 172.58.173.88 23:38, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

You'd bring it up in a new section, but that appears to have been taken care of, courtesy of Lou Cena. Aidan, the Rurouni 23:45, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Wasn’t entirely sure if that was the correct place. 172.58.173.88 23:57, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

General proposals might not be the best page, but this page is even worse to discuss something so unrelated. Lou Cena (talk) 00:10, July 1, 2019 (EDT)

An issue mostly unrelated with the deletion proposal is that the fairy accompaning Link in Brawl and SSB4, where he is based on Twilight Princess, is most likely not Navi, as she only appears in OOT, but rather the cursor fairy from TP, which isn't really a character(even the Zelda wiki doesn't have a page on her). As far as I know, no official source ever stated that the cursor fairy is Navi, or that Navi is the fairy that accompains the Hero of Twilight in Smash, so if this page is not deleted it should just cover Navi's cameo in a SSB4 trophy and her appearance in Young Link's taunt. Rdrfc (talk) 03:18, July 4, 2019 (EDT)

We can at least do that, if we don't delete the page. Aidan, the Rurouni 03:29, July 4, 2019 (EDT)

Bump for this one, as well; since everyone is in agreement that this page can go (other than the IP, who's a sock of Wolff), are there any other objections to deleting it? ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 22:47, July 20, 2019 (EDT)

On one hand, taunt characters do play a more important role than something like a stage cameo - they're almost like a cameo in a special move, since they're a part of the character moveset. On the other, what more can be said for them than "X appears in one of character Y's taunts", outside of maybe "X also appears in the background of stage Z"? I'd almost say that such little content is enough justification for a page, but in that same sense, that would mean that one-time Mii costumes shouldn't get pages either. I'm not going to call this argument off, but I will say that people should speak up if they actually want this page deleted or not, since it's a pretty even split. But currently, despite being the one to instigate this discussion, I can see reasons for keeping this page, so I am instead in opposition of deleting the page. Aidan, the Rurouni 22:58, July 20, 2019 (EDT)

If I'm being honest, I could definitely see a case for deleting Mii costume pages (like Gil), and on a similar level, Smash Tour items (like Tetra). But that's a larger undertaking than what this page entails, so I'll stay neutral unless we decide to bump up the notability rules. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 23:04, July 20, 2019 (EDT)

All of the Smash Tour items, like Tetra, were given pages if they hadn't already because they effected the gameplay of Smash Tour, either on the board or the fights within the mode. As mentioned before, taunts are technically part of a character's moveset, so Navi could be like Rush or Dunban. The Mii Costumes, though notable for characters such as Chibi-Robo, Lip, Gil, Heihachi, Chocobo, and Lloyd, are not part of a Mii Fighter's moveset like the taunts, or effect gameplay like the Tour Items. They seem more like glorified (more prominent) cameos in comparison to the ones you see on the stages like Silver. Of course there's always the option of just keeping or deleting all of them, but I can see this being solved with two ways.

1. We redefine how something effects gameplay to warrant a page for them,
2. Or we redefine how a cameo does not warrant a page

We also could do both. As it stands now, as much as I dislike it, there really does not seem to be a clear way that I can see to keep the Mii Costumes in comparison to the others unless we redefine the rules with cameos and gameplay. Why would cameoing as a costume give a page over camoing in the background? The costume isn't the character itself after all. Why would one's trophy in use of an item in one mode give a page over a character that can appear in any match by use of a taunt? As much as I would like to be Opposed, I think I need to be Neutral until we decide if we need to revisit those rules as Serena said similar before me. 47.199.39.81 01:18, July 21, 2019 (EDT)

Mii costumes are given individual showcases/presentations within Smash information videos (Direct or not), so they're kinda given more love than a stage cameo to begin with. Aidan, the Rurouni 02:27, July 21, 2019 (EDT)

True, but there's no denying that it's still a cameo. We should at least redefine how a cameo can or cannot receive a page, as one could argue that stage cameos are part of the stage itself being enough to receive a page themselves despite not effecting gameplay. Come to think of it, Mii costumes are actually closer to "allusions" of the characters then they are to "cameos" of them. 47.199.39.81 13:29, July 21, 2019 (EDT)

Mii costumes are clearly intended as a "sort-of-playable" tier of representation, and Sakurai basically said as much in the introduction of the Rex costume; that's really different from discussing cameo characters. As for this page, I think that if a taunt causes a character to appear, then there's a decent basis for said character to get a page. (Namco Roulette is a mild exception in that we have one page to discuss all of the relevant characters instead of individual pages for each, which seems adequate to me). Miles (talk) 13:01, July 23, 2019 (EDT)

The original argument, if I am not mistaken, was all based on gameplay (taunts, Tour Items). We just need a proper explanation for Mii cosume allusion characters getting pages, just like how taunts are part of movesets and Smash Tour items effect gameplay. As long as there's a way to properly explain why Mii costumes are able to have pages, especially when they are allusions instead of cameos, then I see no problems with keeping them if we can justify the reason. 47.199.39.81 17:49, July 23, 2019 (EDT)

"Allusion" and "cameo" are subjective terms and this is getting into weird semantics. It's sufficient to just say that Mii costume characters get pages. Miles (talk) 18:11, July 23, 2019 (EDT)

But we need a proper explanation for why that is enough reason to get a page. The whole debate for cameos getting pages may happen again otherwise. The reason that was previously stated was that “cameos” don’t get pages due to not having an effect on gameplay. If we don’t use the term “allusion”, which they are, how can Mii costume cameos get pages? We just need a better way to differentiate them from regular cameos. 47.199.39.81 22:22, July 23, 2019 (EDT)

As I already explained, they're clearly intended as a sort of "consolation prize" level of pseudo-playability, as exemplified by Sakurai introducing the Rex costume as "he didn't quite make the cut, but hopefully this helps you feel like you're playing as him". That's fairly overt in its meaning. And if you can sort-of-almost-not-exactly play as the character, I think that's fairly notable (and definitely more worthy of a page than a lot of stuff). Also, this is veering off-topic from Navi. Miles (talk) 22:28, July 23, 2019 (EDT)

What I meant by "explanation", is a way to tell other users if they don't understand why Mii costume allusions get pages. And I thought it was agreed that taunt characters can keep their pages? 47.199.39.81 00:07, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

I think it can be deleted, because Navi has nothing else, seems only Namco Roulette and some creatures are like her.--Capstalker (talk) 14:42, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

But I thought it was agreed that taunt characters like Navi, Morgana, and Slime could keep their pages due to taunts technically being part of a fighter’s move set, with the Roulette being an exception? The exception being the the Roulette characters being grouped in the Roulette page instead of individual pages due to the nature of the said taunt. 47.199.39.81 15:30, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Morgana wasn't just appears in taunts, Navi is still a lone case. --Capstalker (talk) 02:04, July 26, 2019 (EDT)

Navi isn’t a lone case because of Slime AND Morgana being taunt characters. Mii costume allusions are ALSO being debated if they really should, or can, have pages. If taunt characters can keep pages, the Morgana is in the clear along with Slime and Navi. If neither taunt characters OR Mii costume allusions can have pages, then ALL three can’t have pages. (Background stage, sticker, trophy and spirit cameos currently can’t have pages based on those cameos alone) 47.199.39.81 01:21, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

Don't forget the All-Out Attack, Morgana will have a page anyway. --Capstalker (talk) 02:10, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

I HAD forgotten about that, but what I said still holds true when removing Morgana from the equation. 47.199.39.81 02:28, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

Navi is no different from the average Fairy in Toon Link's taunt, we'll discuss it alone just because she was a small character in the own series. But in the Smash, she is not even as important as an average Fairy.--Capstalker (talk) 02:46, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

First off, the fairies in Wind Waker, of which Toon Link’s is, are generic fairies, or species. Both Navi and the generic fairy, as well as Slime and Morgana, appear as part of taunts. Taunts, as stated before in this whole discussion, are part of characters’ move sets. Luigi, Snake and Greninja for example all have a taunt that can damage an opponent, not to mention that taunts can only be preformed in battle. Like Morgana in All Out Attack, characters that are involved in a fighter’s move set get pages. The fairy species (Zelda) can very well get its own page for that, AND mention both the Fairy Bottle as well as Link’s fairy companions (Navi in a taunt and a trophy with Link, as well as Ciela in a trophy) You seem very set on deleting Navi’s page, but what of Slime’s? A character’s “importance” in their home series isn’t important (of which Navi IS important and significant in her game), their inclusion and significance in Smash matters. Navi has more of a presence in Smash as a taunt then characters like Silver who only appears elsewhere. Especially in tournaments since Green Hill Zone, where Silver’s most prominent cameo is, is banned when you can still use Young Link at all times and see Navi when someone taunts. Same applies to Toon Link’s fairy and Slime. 47.199.39.81 03:28, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

Do you mean that even fairies, unicorns, beetle and pigs should have their own pages? Yes, some taunts can affect the battle, but does not apply to these characters. --Capstalker (talk) 06:10, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

(What Unicorns? And the Beetle already has a page) For Navi and Slime, it does count, regardless if they “specifically” affect the battle, it’s already been stated that taunts count as part of a fighter’s move set and they appear in taunts. I don’t know why you seem so set on deleting Navi’s page. 47.199.39.81 07:23, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

I mean fairy in Toon Link's taunt, pig in Toon Link's victory pose, beetle in Villager's victory pose, F.L.U.D.D.,Lightning Chariot and Wild Gunman. Because I don't think Navi is any different from them, just because she is a character, but Slime is race.--Capstalker (talk) 13:50, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

Slime is also a character, much like Toad and Birdo from Mario. F.L.U.D.D. and the Gunman can both get pages under the same circumstances. I just think nobody has created pages for them yet. The animal in Lightning Chariot, and the fairy from Zelda may need more discussion before getting pages, but the others (Navi, Slime, F.L.U.D.D., Gunman) definitely don't. In the case for non-taunts for example, Rush, Beat, Lloid, and Zelda's Phantom all have pages. 47.199.39.81 17:30, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

(Reset indent) I think a reason that F.L.U.D.D. and the Wild Gunman don't have pages is because the move page (which uses the same name as the character) already serves as that. Though I do have to wonder why Rush, Beat, Lloid, and Phantom have separate pages at the same time, seeing as how the move pages also cover the character's origin (Lloid's origin in both the character and move page (for Villager's side b) are copypasted), thus negating the need for a separate page. It's different from, say, the multitude of characters that cameo in a Final Smash, since they're assisting in the attack, rather than being used for the attack in question. Aidan, the Rurouni 21:07, July 29, 2019 (EDT)