User:Toomai/Cloneosity: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 20:03, January 30, 2019

What is a clone? What is a semi-clone? Is there any meaning to "echo" aside from PR? This page attempts to answer these questions via careful analysis.

Developer intent

For most games, we have official confirmation of which characters the developers consider to be clones. By their definition, the following characters, and no others, are clones:

	Unconfirmed	Luigi has a "differences from Mario" list on the website

	None
		DLC character status (Lucas and Roy) is unknown
		Stated that DLC will not be clones

This setup leads to the following wordy but fairly accurate definition of "clone":

A clone is a character whose moveset is mostly visually identical to another character's, with most (if not all) attacks and special moves of similar (if not identical) mechanics and operation. Differentiation is primarily by tweaks to physics, alterations to attacks' hitboxes and timings, and unique non-combat animations, though they may also have a few unique moves.

So what does this mean for the term "semi-clone"? Not much really. It's used fairly consistently by the community to refer to characters that would be clones if they didn't differ from their parents in more substantial ways, such as having more than a few unique attacks or a different gimmick altogether. Clearly it's a continuous scale, even if the terms are used in a fairly hardline fashion.

System

This is the system I'm using to determine how much of a clone each character pair is.

For each attack that the clone shares with its potential parent, add 1 point. Most attacks and special moves are weighted equally. The exceptions are:
- Neutral attacks are worth 1 for the entire combo as a whole. For example, if the first two hits are the same but the third is different, the total score is 2/3. Neutral infinites plus the finisher counts as one part. Similar applies to multi-part forward tilts and forward smashes (or, if the initial animation is similar enough, multi-hit attacks where the clone only has the first hit(s)).
- If a clone has attacks that involve more animations than the parent - which represents being given new, unique animations for the sake of differentiation - the move's clone score is halved.
  - Examples: A clone has a 3-part neutral attack while the parent has 2, or the clone's f-tilt can be angled while the parent's cannot.
  - The inverse is not true; while it's less clone-y to only have 1 neutral attack instead of 2, this doesn't require any additional differentiation effort.
- Floor attacks and edge attacks are only worth 0.25x, as there is significantly less room for designing such attacks.
An attack is "shared" if any of these apply:
- The animation is similar or identical. (Does it look the same?)
- The animation is not too similar or identical, but the move's function is, or the special move's mechanics and operation are. (Does it do the same thing?)
In the case of custom special moves, a unique custom is worth -0.125, while a custom that replicates the other's default (e.g. Luigi's Bouncing Fireball) is worth +0.25. Therefore, if a special move is a clone:
- Both customs are the same: 1
- One custom is unique: 0.875
- Both customs are unique: 0.75
- One custom is unique but the other is a copy of the other's default: 1.125
- One custom is the same and the other copies the other's default: 1.25
- If one of a pair lacks customs (e.g. Ness and Lucas), the "replicates default" penalty can still apply, but the "unique custom" bonus cannot.
Some clones might have a special move that isn't cloned from their parent, but from a third character. If this third character is clearly related to the clone and/or the parent, this counts as a fully cloned move. If the third character is unrelated, the clone score is halved.
An attempt will be made to avoid hedging - a move either is cloned or it isn't, there's no middle ground. But there may very well be cases where it's impossible to accurately describe something with only 0 and 1. If so, there will be an accompanying explanation.
A difference in access to non-universal movement abilities is worth -0.25 for each difference. This includes wall jumping, wall clinging, crawling, and access to a grab aerial. A difference in number of jumps is worth -0.1 per jump if both characters have more than 2, or -0.25 if either has only 2.
If there is a substantial difference (or similarity) between a clone and its parent not otherwise covered above, it may be worth up to +1 or -1. For example, a parent might swing battering items twice with a smash attack, while the clone swings only once. This is admittedly a highly judgemental category.

Because of these penalties and bonuses, it is possible to achieve scores outside the range of 0%-100%. That said, this is more amusing than useful, and so anything outside this range will be clamped come analysis time.

Data

SSB64

Neutral	F-tilt	U-tilt	D-tilt	Dash	F-smash	U-smash	D-smash	N-air	F-air	B-air	U-air	D-air	F-throw	B-throw	N-special	U-special	D-special	Floor/edge	Other	Total	%
1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		18/19	94.7%
2/3	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	0	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		11.6̅6/19	61.4%
1/4	0	1	0	1	0	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.25, 0.25, 0, 0	-0.5	4.25/19	22.4%

SSBM

Neutral	F-tilt	U-tilt	D-tilt	Dash	F-smash	U-smash	D-smash	N-air	F-air	B-air	U-air	D-air	Pummel	F-throw	B-throw	U-throw	D-throw	N-special	S-special	U-special	D-special	Floor/edge	Other	Total	%
2/3	1	0	1	0	0	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		17.6̅6/23	76.8%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.25	22.75/23	98.9%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.25	22.75/23	98.9%
1/4	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.35	20.9/23	90.9%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		23/23	100.0%
0	1	1	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.125, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.25	5.625/23	24.5%
1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.25	21.75/23	94.6%
1/2	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		22.5/23	97.8%

SSBB

Neutral	F-tilt	U-tilt	D-tilt	Dash	F-smash	U-smash	D-smash	N-air	F-air	B-air	U-air	D-air	Pummel	F-throw	B-throw	U-throw	D-throw	N-special	S-special	U-special	D-special	Final Smash	Floor/edge	Other	Total	%
2/3	1	0	1	0	0	1	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	0	0	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.5	15.416̅6/24.25	63.6%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1/3	1	0	1/2	0	1	1	1	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.15	18.93̅3/24.25	78.1%
0	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		18.25/24.25	75.3%
0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	+1	9.25/24.25	38.1%
0	0	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	0	0.25, 0.25, 0, 0, 0	-0.35	15.15/24.25	62.5%
0	0	0	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	0	10.25/24.25	42.3%
0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0, 0, 0, 0, 0		1/24.25	4.1%

SSB4

Neutral	F-tilt	U-tilt	D-tilt	Dash	F-smash	U-smash	D-smash	N-air	F-air	B-air	U-air	D-air	Pummel	F-throw	B-throw	U-throw	D-throw	N-special	S-special	U-special	D-special	Final Smash	Floor/edge	Other	Total	%
2/3	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	0	1.125	0	0.75	0	0	0, 0.25, 0.25, 0.125	-0.5	12.6̅6/24	52.8%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		23/24	95.8%
1	1	1	1	0	1	1/3	1	0	1/2	0	1	1	1	0	0	1	1	0.875	1.125	0.75	0.75	1	0, 0, 0.25, 0	-0.25	16.3̅3/24	68.1%
0	0	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	0.75	0	0.75	0.75	0	0.25, 0, 0, 0	-0.25	14.25/24	59.4%
0	1	0	1	1	0	0	1	0	0	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1.125	0.75	0.75	0	1	0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.125		15.25/24	63.5%
0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0, 0, 0, 0	-0.5	1.5/24	6.3%
0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	1.25	1.25	1.25	1.25	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.25	9.75/24	40.6%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1.25	1.25	1.25	1.25	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		25/24	104.2%
0	0	0	1	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		18/24	75.0%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1.25	1.25	1.25	1.25	0.5	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		24.5/24	102.1%

SSBU

Neutral	F-tilt	U-tilt	D-tilt	Dash	F-smash	U-smash	D-smash	N-air	F-air	B-air	U-air	D-air	Pummel	F-throw	B-throw	U-throw	D-throw	N-special	S-special	U-special	D-special	Final Smash	Floor/edge	Other	Total	%
2/3	1	1	0	0	0	1	1	1	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	1	0	0	0, 0.25, 0.25, 0.125	-0.75	10.5416̅6/24	43.9%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		22/24	91.7%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		24/24	100.0%
2/4	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0	-0.5	20.75/24	86.5%
2/3	1	1	1	0	0	1/3	1	0	1/2	0	1	1	1	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	0, 0, 0.25, 0	-0.5	14.25/24	59.4%
0	0	1	0	1	0	0	0	1	0	1	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	0	0.25, 0, 0, 0	-0.25	12/24	50.0%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		24/24	100.0%
0	1	0	1	1	0	0	1	0	0	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	0	1	0.25, 0, 0.25, 0.125		14.625/24	60.9%
0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0	0	8.75/24	36.5%
1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.125, 0		21.625/24	90.1%
0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25	-0.25	7.75/24	32.3%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		24/24	100.0%
0	0	0	1	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		18/24	75.0%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.5	1	0	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		22.5/24	93.8%
1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	0.5	0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25		23.5/24	97.9%
[to be completed]

Analysis

The colour of the value bar represents the calculated clone score. The colour behind the head icon represents the character's official status.

Magenta: Ultimate character that is an echo
Red: pre-Ultimate character that is a clone
Orange: Ultimate character that is not an echo, but was a clone in the previous game they appeared
Yellow: unconfirmed status (but highly suspected to be a pre-Ultimate clone)
Green: none of the above

Non-clone	Pseudo-clone	Semi-clone	Limbo	Clone
0%-25%	25%-40%	40%-80%	80%-90%	90%-100%
104.2%
102.1%
100.0%
100.0%
100.0%
100.0%
98.9%
98.9%
97.9%
97.8%
95.8%
94.7%
94.6%
93.8%
91.7%
90.9%
90.1%

86.5%

78.1%
76.8%
75.3%
75.0%
75.0%
68.1%
63.6%
63.5%
62.5%
61.4%
60.9%
59.4%
59.4%
52.8%
50.0%
43.9%
42.3%
40.6%

38.1%
36.5%
32.3%

24.5%
22.4%
6.3%
4.1%
0%-25%	25%-40%	40%-80%	80%-90%	90%-100%

Conclusions

Characters that share 90% of attack animations are clones.
Characters that share 40% of attack animations are semi-clones.
Young Link (SSBU) is somewhere between clone and semi-clone (a bit closer to the former). Further numbers will be required.
Wolf is stuck somewhere between semi-clone and non-clone, as is Lucas (SSBU). I am forming a new category for them called "pseudo-clone".
Characters can be clones without being "echo"es, as seen with Dr. Mario. The reverse being true (characters can be "echo"es without being clones) is unlikely but unproven; Ken appears to be a potential candidate.
Some pairs of clones with identical parents should probably be checked against each other. Not sure if the data will be useful, but it could be interesting.
It's a bit goofy that the "same custom moves" penalty technically makes Dark Pit and Lucina less of a clone in SSBU. I don't really like that, but I don't see a way around it without dropping the penalty idea (which I think is well-deserved).

@@ Line 237: / Line 237: @@
 |-
 |{{head|Lucina|g=SSBU|s=24x24px}}||{{head|Marth|g=SSBU|s=18x18px}}
-|rowspan="7" colspan="27"|[to be completed]
+|1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25||
+|24/24||100.0%
 |-
 |{{head|Roy|g=SSBU|s=24x24px}}||{{head|Marth|g=SSBU|s=18x18px}}
+|0||0||0||1||0||0||1||1||1||1||1||1||0||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25||
+|18/24||75.0%
 |-
 |{{head|Chrom|g=SSBU|s=24x24px}}||{{head|Roy|g=SSBU|s=18x18px}}
+|1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||{{rollover|0.5|Cloned from the unrelated Ike (being a Fire Emblem character isn't enough).|y}}||1||0||0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25||
+|22.5/24||93.8%
 |-
 |{{head|Dark Pit|g=SSBU|s=24x24px}}||{{head|Pit|g=SSBU|s=18x18px}}
+|1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||{{rollover|0.5|Cloned from the unrelated Zelda. True, Zelda has a new FS in SSBU, but effectively zero changes were made to this move.|y}}||0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25||
+|23.5/24||97.9%
 |-
 |{{head|Isabelle|g=SSBU|s=24x24px}}||{{head|Villager|g=SSBU|s=18x18px}}
+|rowspan="3" colspan="27"|[to be completed]
 |-
 |{{head|Ken|g=SSBU|s=24x24px}}||{{head|Ryu|g=SSBU|s=18x18px}}
@@ Line 262: / Line 270: @@
 !
 !Non-clone
-!Limbo I
+!Pseudo-clone
 !Semi-clone
-!Limbo II
+!Limbo
 !Clone
 |-
@@ Line 287: / Line 295: @@
 |-
 |style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Dark Samus|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
+|colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
+|-
+|style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Lucina|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
 |colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,0,0,0.25) 99%,rgba(255,0,0,1.0) 100%)"|100.0%
 |-
@@ Line 294: / Line 305: @@
 |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Young Link|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
 |colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,5,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,5,0,0.25) 97.9%,rgba(255,5,0,1.0) 98.9%,transparent 98.9%,transparent 100%)"|98.9%
+|-
+|style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Dark Pit|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
+|colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,10,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,10,0,0.25) 96.9%,rgba(255,10,0,1.0) 97.9%,transparent 97.9%,transparent 100%)"|97.9%
 |-
 |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Roy|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
@@ Line 306: / Line 320: @@
 |style="background:#ff0000"|{{head|Pichu|g=SSBM|s=20x20px}}
 |colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,27,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,27,0,0.25) 93.6%,rgba(255,27,0,1.0) 94.6%,transparent 94.6%,transparent 100%)"|94.6%
+|-
+|style="background:#ff00ff"|{{head|Chrom|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
+|colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,31,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,31,0,0.25) 92.8%,rgba(255,31,0,1.0) 93.8%,transparent 93.8%,transparent 100%)"|93.8%
 |-
 |style="background:#ff7f00"|{{head|Dr. Mario|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
@@ Line 333: / Line 350: @@
 |-
 |style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Roy|g=SSB4|s=20x20px}}
+|colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 74.0%,rgba(255,127,0,1.0) 75.0%,transparent 75.0%,transparent 100%)"|75.0%
+|-
+|style="background:#00ff00"|{{head|Roy|g=SSBU|s=20x20px}}
 |colspan="5" style="text-align:left;background:linear-gradient(to right,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 0%,rgba(255,127,0,0.25) 74.0%,rgba(255,127,0,1.0) 75.0%,transparent 75.0%,transparent 100%)"|75.0%
 |-
@@ Line 407: / Line 427: @@
 |}
 ===Conclusions===
-Based on only this data so far:
 *Characters that share 90% of attack animations are clones.
 *Characters that share 40% of attack animations are semi-clones.
 *Young Link (SSBU) is somewhere between clone and semi-clone (a bit closer to the former). Further numbers will be required.
-*Wolf is stuck somewhere between semi-clone and non-clone, as is Lucas (SSBU). I am currently leaning towards forming a category for them called "pseudo-clone", of characters with unique normal movesets but clearly cloned special moves.
+*Wolf is stuck somewhere between semi-clone and non-clone, as is Lucas (SSBU). I am forming a new category for them called "pseudo-clone".
 *Characters can be clones without being "echo"es, as seen with Dr. Mario. The reverse being true (characters can be "echo"es without being clones) is unlikely but unproven; Ken appears to be a potential candidate.
 *Some pairs of clones with identical parents should probably be checked against each other. Not sure if the data will be useful, but it could be interesting.
+*It's a bit goofy that the "same custom moves" penalty technically makes Dark Pit and Lucina less of a clone in SSBU. I don't really like that, but I don't see a way around it without dropping the penalty idea (which I think is well-deserved).

User:Toomai/Cloneosity: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 20:03, January 30, 2019

Contents

Developer intent

System

Data

SSB64

SSBM

SSBB

SSB4

SSBU

Analysis

Conclusions

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